Is the actual rotation the worst in the last 10 Y?

[User Name]

Well for one thing, your Shtick sounds very Bostonian or New Yorker. Hard for me to decipher that you are foreign......and I don't mean that in a negative way. You just seem American.

 

I lived in Michigan for a couple of years if that helps.

[Ogden]

But probably bitching a hell of a lot less. Already we're seeing the revisionists coming out and saying how it was ok to let Lester leave, that we can get along without him, that our rotation is strong enough, and that the front office knew what they were doing......and that's fine it that's your opinion. It doesn't happen to be mine. I think letting Lester leave was a potential debacle that we could feel for the next three or four season since we have no one close in our rotation who matches him.. None have performed in big game and big series and big playoff situations the way Jon has. We might get along without him but we won't be better than if we had him. Our rotation might be strong enough if the AL East is weak this year and we can sneak in and win the division, but it not nearly of the caliber to take the team to a WS Title and probably not get us to the WS unless all the stars are aligned just right. I also do not feel the front office knew what they were doing with Lester at all. Anyone who thinks that paltry 4 year 70 million contract extension offer was a fair one is nuts in my opinion. It was an insulting offer, and Lucchino made it. Was he acting on his own meddling again or was he acting in concert with Henry. Then Henry going to visit Jon to try and talk him into coming back just before he signed with the Cubs. Did anyone really believe he was going to come back or maybe like some of us, we understood that he was pissed off at the FO and wanted out.

 

Two people brought up a salient point. Maybe, just maybe, the team never really wanted to sign him long term, but I have news for Henry and Co. Don't expect another miracle like 2013. The team is going to have to be balls out and tough as nails to win anything this year, and, sorry to say, Masterson, Miley and Buchholz don't inspire all that much confidence in me. But let's see.

 

 

 

 

 

It's not the Lester situation necessarily that I have an issue with. I just think no pitcher is worth more than 4 years for in excess of $20 M. Obviously that is a minority opinion and possibly irrational and maybe I should put myself in the shoes of an owner who has money to burn where the $ just don't matter, but I haven't been able to get my head around that yet. Pitchers are fragile and can age quickly and unexpectedly. Just ask Cashman.

[Ogden]

Jeez, I joined this forum to talk baseball and it turns out I walk into a middle school recess pissing contest. Freakin ridiculous.

[Palodios]

Jeez, I joined this forum to talk baseball and it turns out I walk into a middle school recess pissing contest. Freakin ridiculous.

 

Please take that argument with a grain of salt... During long cold offseasons after bad seasons, people tend to get pissy. When there is something else to talk about, people will shift gears.

[jacksonianmarch]

 

 

It's not the Lester situation necessarily that I have an issue with. I just think no pitcher is worth more than 4 years for in excess of $20 M. Obviously that is a minority opinion and possibly irrational and maybe I should put myself in the shoes of an owner who has money to burn where the $ just don't matter, but I haven't been able to get my head around that yet. Pitchers are fragile and can age quickly and unexpectedly. Just ask Cashman.

 

I'll talk with you without pissing Ogden. I agree, no baseball player is truly worth $20 mil a season on a societal level, but the market dictates everything here. Lester's market was obviously well north of that figure. Everyone knew the market would dictate a MUCH higher value than 4yrs $70 mil. Starting that low was a complete and total insult to Lester. Let's put it this way. You're interviewing for a job and the market dictates your salary should be $80K and they offer you $50K. That would be a problem

[Bellhorn04]

Cherington made some comments later to the effect of being surprised and disappointed that Lester's agents hadn't come back to them with anything after the $70 million offer. It all seems a little disingenuous, especially when they would eventually offer him $135 million.

[User Name]

I still think they never really planned to re-sign him and it was all a clever ruse. But that's just me and my tinfoil hat.

[Bellhorn04]

I still think they never really planned to re-sign him and it was all a clever ruse. But that's just me and my tinfoil hat.

 

It looks that way to me too. It was nice of Henry to pay him that last visit, but did he really expect Lester to take $20 million less to play for him?

[mvp 78]

I still think they never really planned to re-sign him and it was all a clever ruse. But that's just me and my tinfoil hat.

 

Yup, just trying to save face for John Q Public.

 

I think they are scared off by age (see: Shields, James)

[iortiz]

http://nesn.com/2014/12/jon-lester-probably-would-have-accepted-120m-offer-from-red-sox-in-spring/

 

Jon Lester signed a six-year, $155 million contract with the Chicago Cubs last week. The Red Sox were the runners-up in the Lester free agency sweepstakes, but it’s possible Boston could have signed the left-hander to a contract extension last spring if it offered him something in the range of five years and $120 million.

“That is one of those deals where hindsight is 20/20. You go back in time and you look at it and you go, ‘probably yes,’ ” Lester said Thursday on WEEI’s “Hot Stove Show.” “I mean, you don’t know. I mean, it is one of those deals where when it is sitting in front of you, that is a lot of money to turn down. That would have made it very difficult to turn it down.”

 

Something around 120 M at the time would have made it done, no doubt.

[User Name]

Yeah, that's what Max Scherzer said too. Then the Tigers offered him 144 mill, he said no, and got his payday from the Nationals. The hilarious thing is how selective some people are when taking things players, coaches or FO-types say at face value.

[mvp 78]

Jon Lester may be also be trying to save face here. Without actually being in their heads, we'll never know.

 

At this point it's more important to worry about the future rather than the past, but that's just me.

[Spudboy]

I still think they never really planned to re-sign him and it was all a clever ruse. But that's just me and my tinfoil hat.

 

I have suggested this as well.

 

Most likely we will not know for sure.

 

Whatever. It's done.

[Spudboy]

Jon Lester may be also be trying to save face here. Without actually being in their heads, we'll never know.

 

At this point it's more important to worry about the future rather than the past, but that's just me.

 

Exactly.

 

But some will continue to cling to this as a defining issue and continue to moan about how the FO failed because it suits their narrative.

 

To me it's just a bore.

[User Name]

I have suggested this as well.

 

Most likely we will not know for sure.

 

Whatever. It's done.

 

A very impostant statement, and key to stop the "airing of grievances" around here.

[a700hitter]

Whether they intended to not resign Lester or they just botched and misread the situation, their current staff is collection of mediocrity, underachievers, and hopeful comebacks. They will need a lot to go right for this staff to be productive. Whether you ascribe incompetence to their negotiations with Lester or are convinced that his leaving was an execution of their plan, the staff is very questionable and it could turn into a s*** sandwich. The only saving grace is that no AL east team has a strong staff. The O's are mediocre but with more depth. The Yankees is potentially very strong depending on the health of CC, Tanaka and Pineda. Injuries like last year could devastate them. If the Blue Jays land Shields and Soriano to close, they could cause some problems for us. Their lineup is as deep as ours.

[a700hitter]

Exactly.

 

But some will continue to cling to this as a defining issue and continue to moan about how the FO failed because it suits their narrative.

 

To me it's just a bore.

 

Narrative? Are you employed by MSNBC? I for one am looking forward. This staff is not formidable at all and it could be very meh. Lester pitches for the Cubs. Whether they wanted him back or not is irrelevant, but it would have been a much stronger staff with him.

Edited February 3, 2015 by a700hitter

[seabeachfred]

Jeez, I joined this forum to talk baseball and it turns out I walk into a middle school recess pissing contest. Freakin ridiculous.

 

First about that sign about you being crazy.....you're not except for loving the Red Sox, but then if that's the benchmark then we're all nuts. As for pissing contest, I think things are going to quiet down for awhile. Look, none of us want to be suspended for a month, banned for two, and turn this board into a brawling cauldron. Stay on here Ogden.....you will find that the positives far outweigh the negatives. As for your take on Lester, even if you are right, the market dictates the prices and as long as teams are throwing out that kind of money the prices will only go higher until sanity prevails.

[iortiz]

I believe Jon here all the way. He said at the time as well that he would give to the Red Sox a "team discount" over and over and over again. Also, saying that they didn't want Lester from the beginning is absurd considering all the diligences they made, even JH himself tried to land him making a last offer in his house in Atlanta. It didn't work out. Let's face it, they shitted the bed big time. They simply misread his value with that ridiculous 70 M offer. They could have landed Jon at something around (120 M) easily.

 

Yeah! He's all gone, unfortunately. I'm just pointing out what Lester himself said just after he signed with the Cubs since some people here doubt it.

 

Now... We have a mediocre rotation going forward. Some people here have a lot of faith on this staff, and it is oks, and probably just a few here and a lot more outside, agree with me saying that this rotation is the worst in the last 10 Y entering into a season. Time will tell.

Edited February 3, 2015 by iortiz

[seabeachfred]

Jon Lester may be also be trying to save face here. Without actually being in their heads, we'll never know.

 

At this point it's more important to worry about the future rather than the past, but that's just me.

 

You know mvp, I have a color photo of Jon Lester sitting in the tray next to my computer in a Cubs top. I will miss him and I do not wish him harm but only the best. Sometime, say 2018, we will meet the Cubs in the WS and beat them again as we did in 1918. That would be a real hoot. Still, I'll be rooting for the guy when he opens the season for the his new team on Sunday Night Baseball to open the season.

[seabeachfred]

I belive Jon here all the way. He said at the time as well that he would give to the Red Sox a "team discount" over and over and over again. Also, saying that they didn't want Lester from the beginning is absurd considering all the diligences they made, even JH himself tried to land him making a last offer in his house in Atlanta. It didn't work out. Let's face it, they shitted the bed big time. They simply misread his value with that ridiculous 70 M offer. They could have landed Jon at something around (120 M) easily.

 

Yeah! He's all gone, unfortunately. I'm just pointing out what Lester himself said just after he signed with the Cubs since some people here doubt it.

 

Now... We have a mediocre rotation going forward. Some people here have a lot of faith on this staff, and it is oks, and probably just a few here and a lot more outside, agree with me saying that this rotation is the worst in the last 10 Y entering into a season. Time will tell.

 

I still agree with you my friend that we need another top quality pitcher but right now it looks like that's not going to happen. The front office is taking a big chance doing that. If it works out and we win the division they will look like pretty smart cookies. It the season unravels Red Sox fans will be very angry along with disappointed. My wish is that Amaro gets a reality check and decides to sell Hamels for a plethora of Red Sox prospects not named Swihart or Betts. What might be even better long term is if Owens lights up Pawtucket, is brought up in June or so and sets the league on fire. Right now I am worried about the five we have and IMHO three of them need to really step up this season.

[jd98]

I'll talk with you without pissing Ogden. I agree, no baseball player is truly worth $20 mil a season on a societal level, but the market dictates everything here. Lester's market was obviously well north of that figure. Everyone knew the market would dictate a MUCH higher value than 4yrs $70 mil. Starting that low was a complete and total insult to Lester. Let's put it this way. You're interviewing for a job and the market dictates your salary should be $80K and they offer you $50K. That would be a problem

 

If it was a job where the salary was negotiable, I would tell them I think I'm worth 80k, and continue to negotiate. I'll get bashed for this, but I'll be contrarian here and put most of the blame on Lester. The initial offer was low, but that's often how negotiations work. The team makes a low offer, the player makes a high demand, they negotiate and end up in the middle somewhere. That's why they're called negotiations. It was not so low that Lester needed to act like an insulted 4 year old girl and take his ball and go home. 2014 season must be ignored because it hadn't happened yet and was much better than anything he had done before. He had a 3.75 and 4.82 ERA the previous 2 seasons with an excellent 2013 postseason.

He then said he didn't want to talk contract during the season so as not to be a distraction. You know what would do an even better job of not being a distraction? Signing a contract. I think he was like Scherzer and thought he could have a good season and wanted to test the market all along and go for the money, and he saw the 'insulting' offer as his out. That's fine, but would mean it's not all the FO's fault, and of course it's just my opinion.

[cp176]

If it was a job where the salary was negotiable, I would tell them I think I'm worth 80k, and continue to negotiate. I'll get bashed for this, but I'll be contrarian here and put most of the blame on Lester. The initial offer was low, but that's often how negotiations work. The team makes a low offer, the player makes a high demand, they negotiate and end up in the middle somewhere. That's why they're called negotiations. It was not so low that Lester needed to act like an insulted 4 year old girl and take his ball and go home. 2014 season must be ignored because it hadn't happened yet and was much better than anything he had done before. He had a 3.75 and 4.82 ERA the previous 2 seasons with an excellent 2013 postseason.

He then said he didn't want to talk contract during the season so as not to be a distraction. You know what would do an even better job of not being a distraction? Signing a contract. I think he was like Scherzer and thought he could have a good season and wanted to test the market all along and go for the money, and he saw the 'insulting' offer as his out. That's fine, but would mean it's not all the FO's fault, and of course it's just my opinion.

 

I actually like your opinion. I'm not so sure he really wanted to sign with Boston. Once he left, I felt it was a done deal. I do think that top talent leading off your rotation is important and I don't see it currently in Boston or in the system really. I think that it will be there eventually.

[Spudboy]

I hope that the Sox avoid even thinking about Barry Zitto.

[Bellhorn04]

If it was a job where the salary was negotiable, I would tell them I think I'm worth 80k, and continue to negotiate. I'll get bashed for this, but I'll be contrarian here and put most of the blame on Lester. The initial offer was low, but that's often how negotiations work. The team makes a low offer, the player makes a high demand, they negotiate and end up in the middle somewhere. That's why they're called negotiations. It was not so low that Lester needed to act like an insulted 4 year old girl and take his ball and go home.

 

I think Lester conducted himself like a stand-up guy all the way. He didn't say one negative thing about anybody.

[dupree]

Phillies still want Blake Swihart as the big piece to land Hamels.

 

At first I was thinking no we don't need to trade him for any reason. But if we can keep our high end pitching prospects and get Hamels back in return I hope the FO makes that trade. We have Vazquez and his defense will make up for his low batting average. If a position prospect can get to an Ace you make that trade in my opinion.

[mvp 78]

Hamels is in his 30's, never pitched out of NL and has a huge contract. I'd rather save top prospects than find a short term solution.

[sk7326]

Phillies still want Blake Swihart as the big piece to land Hamels.

 

At first I was thinking no we don't need to trade him for any reason. But if we can keep our high end pitching prospects and get Hamels back in return I hope the FO makes that trade. We have Vazquez and his defense will make up for his low batting average. If a position prospect can get to an Ace you make that trade in my opinion.

 

I wouldn't. BUT it's fairly close. You are getting 3 years of Hamels which is much different than the other guys who seem more like rentals. That said, the Phillies should (and are) driving a hard bargain because of the control that comes with landing him.

[cp176]

Phillies still want Blake Swihart as the big piece to land Hamels.

 

At first I was thinking no we don't need to trade him for any reason. But if we can keep our high end pitching prospects and get Hamels back in return I hope the FO makes that trade. We have Vazquez and his defense will make up for his low batting average. If a position prospect can get to an Ace you make that trade in my opinion.

 

Prospects is the key word here. Have to slow down with Swihart. I think you definitely keep him. I don't know what would define a high end pitching prospects. I'm not sure they are high end as in top of the rotation prospects. Maybe maybe not.

[seabeachfred]

SBF to Amaro----You want Swihart? Get lost!!!!!!!