Let's talk catchers

[Spudboy]

You don't give anybody away - but if a deal for Johnny Cueto hinged on Vasquez and the org has evaluated that Swihart is the long term guy - then you make the trade without regret. One of the things - one of the jobs an org has - is to evaluate who is untouchable. Catching is a place where Boston has org depth - so it is a place you can make a determination on who is the best of the bunch. (Although it is a secondary consideration it's ALSO NOT FAIR TO THE PROSPECTS) Lavarnway was never a surefire catcher prospect. There was a reason we dealt for Salty knowing Lavarnway was there.

 

No one is untouchable except for Betts. But again, I advocate building a rotation through free agency first and trade only if necessary.

[sk7326]

No one is untouchable except for Betts. But again, I advocate building a rotation through free agency first and trade only if necessary.

 

Tricky part with FA is the winner curse of FA. You are overpaying to win the auction, and for the most part the guys who get to UFA are at or past their peak. Trading is how you can get Josh Beckett at 25 years old (never mind his mixed career, that is still a super premium asset). It's how you could get Pedro Martinez at the BEGINNING of his era defining brilliance. An org is only as good as its own development machine, but a good part of that machine is developing currency to acquire guys.

 

Nabbing one of the premium pitching FAs this year is easier since for Price and Lester, all it costs is money. If the Red Sox want to win a bidding war, they can - there is no draft pick issue. For me, if you can snag one of the Lester-Scherzer-Price trio (at least) and perhaps one other solid arm, then you can look through your org depth and try to fill your #4/5 positions that way. Barnes, Kelly and Owens and De La Rosa all look like reasonable possibilities there. Workman and Webster could be dynamite late inning options, but their utility as starters is very very limited.

[Bellhorn04]

Nabbing one of the premium pitching FAs this year is easier since for Price and Lester, all it costs is money. If the Red Sox want to win a bidding war, they can - there is no draft pick issue. For me, if you can snag one of the Lester-Scherzer-Price trio (at least) and perhaps one other solid arm, then you can look through your org depth and try to fill your #4/5 positions that way. Barnes, Kelly and Owens and De La Rosa all look like reasonable possibilities there. Workman and Webster could be dynamite late inning options, but their utility as starters is very very limited.

 

Price is not FA until 2016, right?

[sk7326]

Price is not FA until 2016, right?

 

True - brain fart here ... although the point for Lester holds ... hurts to be senile

[Dojji]

Would love it if the team went to the wall for Lester and James Shields. Shields has issues in the playoffs, but we need to get to the playoffs again before we have to worry about that, and an innings horse like Shields will play a big role in us getting there.

[Dojji]

Catching is a place where Boston has org depth - so it is a place you can make a determination on who is the best of the bunch..

 

Now see, I almost agree with this except I have an issue with the idea of fixating on one guy who's your go to catching prospect when a roster can have 2 catchers. I see a distinct and important role for potentially both Vazquez and Swihart on this team and I'd be reluctant to deal either one.

 

I would have no problem starting Vazquez next year even if the ultimate goal is to ease Swihart into the role, because a roster can have 2 catchers and Vazquez is an ideal backup catcher type anyway.

[vjcsmoke]

I'm fine sticking with Vazquez. You can have catcher who hits 220-250 and that's fine as long as his defense is superb. BTW we already have one of the best hitting C prospects in Swihart so I have no problem with Vazquez holding the fort until Swihart is ready.

[sk7326]

Now see, I almost agree with this except I have an issue with the idea of fixating on one guy who's your go to catching prospect when a roster can have 2 catchers. I see a distinct and important role for potentially both Vazquez and Swihart on this team and I'd be reluctant to deal either one.

 

I would have no problem starting Vazquez next year even if the ultimate goal is to ease Swihart into the role, because a roster can have 2 catchers and Vazquez is an ideal backup catcher type anyway.

 

Here is the thing. A big league roster has 2 catchers, but one of the catchers is only getting 40-50 starts. So, if two catchers who legitimately deserve 120 starts are on the roster, somebody is getting screwed. First, the player - since the reason he does not have a starting gig is geographic accident and service time - and second, the org who is under employing somebody who could get them something valuable in trade.

 

It'd be nice to have Vasquez for a year and then Swihart (assuming Swihart is not really ready until 2016, and that Swihart is a better prospect overall). But timelines are hard to predict and a good deal can show up at anytime. Knowing which guy the org is leaning towards allows the team to be agile when an opportunity pops up. It's like what Danny Ainge says all the time - nobody is untouchable, but that doesn't mean the price is low. After all if the Angels offered us Trout for Betts no strings attached, I'd drive Mookie to the airport fully expecting him to become a real star. Now if the org expects Swihart to be the 120 start guy, and a team thinks Vasquez can be a starter, there is a potential match and no reason not to listen on it.

[Dojji]

Guy like Vazquez isn't losing a lot of his value as a backup, and when a rookie catcher is your starter, your backup will get a chance to earn some playing time.

 

I'm fine with making it a competition. I just hope that when the Sox do this, they have some aging guy in AAA they can slot in if both young catchers lose.

[BSN07]

Would love it if the team went to the wall for Lester and James Shields. Shields has issues in the playoffs, but we need to get to the playoffs again before we have to worry about that, and an innings horse like Shields will play a big role in us getting there.

 

I think Lester ends up in Boston on a team friendly deal or in Chicago playing for the Cubs on a monster contract.

 

Shields innings totals scare me a bit. Signing him for his mid 30's seasons is a crap shoot. If you can get him for 2-3 guaranteed years ok. But if he's getting 4-5 year offers you have to pass imo.

 

Back on top, I really see no reason not to enter 2015 with Vasquez as the starting C. Be nice to get a LHH partner for him but the options are limited. Only FA LH is AJ and well no chance there. So it have to be a trade or someone who gets non tendered.

[sk7326]

Guy like Vazquez isn't losing a lot of his value as a backup, and when a rookie catcher is your starter, your backup will get a chance to earn some playing time.

 

I'm fine with making it a competition. I just hope that when the Sox do this, they have some aging guy in AAA they can slot in if both young catchers lose.

 

My expectation - either way - is that Vasquez starts at C. I suspect the Sox listen to offers on both guys, especially as components to get a significant player. It is the plus on having two legitimate starters. Swihart has the higher ceiling but also the higher variability. I don't think they will usher Vasquez out for free or anything (nor should they). You have two starters worth of depth, it means you can listen on both of them if a team calls with an interesting offer.

Edited October 28, 2014 by sk7326

[Dojji]

Swihart is not yet a legitimate starter.

 

When will people stop failing to make the distinction between ceiling and present level? A ceiling can very easily never be reached in the lifespan of a prospect. Right now, Swihart is a guy with a great ceiling who has not yet reached it. Vazquez is a high floor catcher and worth holding on to until you know what you're going to get from Swihart, which we won't really know for at least 3 seasons.

 

Keep Vazquez. Worry about what happens when Swihart beats him, when that actually happens.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Swihart is not yet a legitimate starter.

 

When will people stop failing to make the distinction between ceiling and present level? A ceiling can very easily never be reached in the lifespan of a prospect. Right now, Swihart is a guy with a great ceiling who has not yet reached it. Vazquez is a high floor catcher and worth holding on to until you know what you're going to get from Swihart, which we won't really know for at least 3 seasons.

 

Keep Vazquez. Worry about what happens when Swihart beats him, when that actually happens.

 

We may not know what Swihart's ceiling is for 3 seasons, but by the end of 2015, he should be the starting C on this team.

 

Keep in mind, I love, love, love Vazquez too.

[Dojji]

We may not know what Swihart's ceiling is for 3 seasons, but by the end of 2015, he should be the starting C on this team.

 

I think that depends on your definition of "should."

 

Swihart "should" be so talented that he forces the issue, knocks the door down, and makes himself the obvious choice to start at catcher, even in the presence of Vazaquez. He absolutely should NOT be simply expected to be our starter and have the way paved for him to come in by getting rid of veterans and other promising talents at the catching position.

[Behindenemylines]

Vasquez will be starter to start the season. The Sox will sign or trade for a lefty hitting catcher to be his backup. Unless he improves offensively he will only be holding the spot for Swihart who we could see sometime next summer or as their starter in 2016.

[Dojji]

Not that many LHH catchers. I'm sure there are others but the only one I can think of off the top of my head is George Kottaras.

[sk7326]

I think that depends on your definition of "should."

 

Swihart "should" be so talented that he forces the issue, knocks the door down, and makes himself the obvious choice to start at catcher, even in the presence of Vazaquez. He absolutely should NOT be simply expected to be our starter and have the way paved for him to come in by getting rid of veterans and other promising talents at the catching position.

 

Oh I think this is fair - although clearly Swihart and Betts were the developmental champs of the org this past season.

[sk7326]

Not that many LHH catchers. I'm sure there are others but the only one I can think of off the top of my head is George Kottaras.

 

The Red Sox have been stacked with them ... Varitek, Salty, Rich Gedman, Scott Hatteberg

 

Others: Ron Hassey, Mickey Tettleton, Jorge Posada, Darrell Porter ...

Edited November 14, 2014 by sk7326

[Dojji]

Well I don't think we can sign any of those guys to catch for us this year.

[seabeachfred]

Not that many LHH catchers. I'm sure there are others but the only one I can think of off the top of my head is George Kottaras.

 

Perhaps like me you're trying to drive the memory of AJ out of your mind. Remember him? One of our addled front office's miserable and disastrous moves in a season full of them.

[MJantomaso]

I too, love vazquez. But what about a trade for the Astros Jason Castro?

[Dojji]

You want to trade for a guy who's likely to be overpriced, far worse than Vazquez defensively, and hit for a .650 OPS last year?

[Behindenemylines]

I think there is something to bringing back Ross on the cheap if Lester signs. They will not have to spend big $$$$$ in doing so, and by July I think Swihart will be ready if the Ross thing doesn't work. There is enough added O to cover for a catcher hitting 9th (Vazquez or Ross). If he gives you just a little more with the bat he is a plus, because everything else he brings is A+.

[a700hitter]

I think there is something to bringing back Ross on the cheap if Lester signs. They will not have to spend big $$$$$ in doing so, and by July I think Swihart will be ready if the Ross thing doesn't work. There is enough added O to cover for a catcher hitting 9th (Vazquez or Ross). If he gives you just a little more with the bat he is a plus, because everything else he brings is A+.

Ross is a fossil. It's time to move on.

[SCM33]

Couple things. Vazquez does not have the ceiling of an above average catcher. He's a floor of a backup due to his defensive abilities and a ceiling of a weaker offensive starting catcher. Nobody should expect anything offensively out of him, but he does have great defensive capabilities. Swihart hasn't been likened to Buster Posey, cmon now. Posey is an MVP caliber backstop. This kid looks like you above average to all star ceiling catcher, but let's not get carried away here

 

Vazquez will hit. He is already great defensively. I would say he is already a top 5 defensive catcher.

 

Give him a chance to develop offensively.

[cp176]

Vazquez this year for sure. A great defensive catcher. If Swihart becomes what we think he could become, there is no way that they both ultimately stay in Boston. Would make absolutely no sense. It's a good problem to have though. Think about the best catchers we have had then think about their backups. You want one of these two guys going every 4th or 5th day? Not likely. It will be interesting to see if we have over rated another "potential" player.

[mvp 78]

Swihart is getting a 1b mitt.

[cp176]

Interesting! Based on If they both develop accordingly, I might still consider a move for a real arm.

[sk7326]

Ross is a fossil. It's time to move on.

 

A fossil who is perfect for the job carved out for him.

[a700hitter]

A fossil who is perfect for the job carved out for him.

A fossil that needs to be buried and visit other fossils.