2014 Offseason Thread

[Bellhorn04]

That pretty much sums it up right there. These players are not doing anything differently in clutch situations than what they normally do otherwise.

 

Exactly - and that's what makes them clutch. It's the guys who do things differently in those situations, because their heart rates have accelerated way above normal etc., that aren't clutch.

[User Name]

Exactly - and that's what makes them clutch. It's the guys who do things differently in those situations, because their heart rates have accelerated way above normal etc., that aren't clutch.

 

Clutch, like unicorns, bigfoot, or Loch Ness, is a mythical animal that a lot of people claim to have seen, but no one can actually prove they've seen it.

[Bellhorn04]

Clutch, like unicorns, bigfoot, or Loch Ness, is a mythical animal that a lot of people claim to have seen, but no one can actually prove they've seen it.

 

You believe that choking is real, though, right?

[User Name]

You believe that choking is real, though, right?

 

It's quantifiable.

 

I'll give you this, and this is my personal theory which I will substantiate in the future: It's not that clutch doesn't exist, it's that we're looking at the wrong type of ballplayer when trying to assign "clutchness". I think pitchers are the ones who can be "clutch".

[seabeachfred]

It's quantifiable.

 

I'll give you this, and this is my personal theory which I will substantiate in the future: It's not that clutch doesn't exist, it's that we're looking at the wrong type of ballplayer when trying to assign "clutchness". I think pitchers are the ones who can be "clutch".

 

Let's close this thread User. We're getting nowhere with it save for the fact there is a lot of disagreement here and that can only lead to hurt feelings and some nasty exchanges perhaps. We all have bigger fish to fry to why not just move on.

[cp176]

Clutch, like unicorns, bigfoot, or Loch Ness, is a mythical animal that a lot of people claim to have seen, but no one can actually prove they've seen it.

 

Interesting - Kind of like when someone says they have faith don't you think? To believe in something other than yourself. Something you might not be able to prove, see, or touch I think is not a bad thing. What do you think the big guy points to when he crosses home plate? Not everything can be proven or disproven. Sometimes things just seem to happen.

[Spudboy]

Ortiz points towards his Mother in Heaven.

[Bellhorn04]

Cliff Lee pitched 2 scoreless today. Let's do it!

[User Name]

Get Lee plz.

[User Name]

Interesting - Kind of like when someone says they have faith don't you think? To believe in something other than yourself. Something you might not be able to prove, see, or touch I think is not a bad thing. What do you think the big guy points to when he crosses home plate? Not everything can be proven or disproven. Sometimes things just seem to happen.

 

Yeah but this isn't about faith. It's about baseball. But feel free to keep comparing apples to not oranges, but rather spaceships.

[iortiz]

Interesting - Kind of like when someone says they have faith don't you think? To believe in something other than yourself. Something you might not be able to prove, see, or touch I think is not a bad thing. What do you think the big guy points to when he crosses home plate? Not everything can be proven or disproven. Sometimes things just seem to happen.

It's worthless CP, he is going to go in circles.

[Kimmi]

Exactly - and that's what makes them clutch. It's the guys who do things differently in those situations, because their heart rates have accelerated way above normal etc., that aren't clutch.

 

 

Well if you define clutch as the lack of choking, then I guess we can say that clutch exists. In that case though, pretty much every MLB player is clutch. With all the competition there is, you're not going to make it to the majors if you can't handle and perform under pressure.

 

The idea of clutch as an ability to raise one's game to a higher level than normal in pressure situations is just false.

[Kimmi]

It's quantifiable.

 

I'll give you this, and this is my personal theory which I will substantiate in the future: It's not that clutch doesn't exist, it's that we're looking at the wrong type of ballplayer when trying to assign "clutchness". I think pitchers are the ones who can be "clutch".

 

It's interesting. I don't know if I agree with this or not. I've looked into it before, but there has been very little research on the topic of "clutch pitchers". There is all kinds of research on clutch hitters, and all come to more or less the same conclusion. That said, what very little I have been able to find on the topic of clutch pitchers suggests that they do not exist either. A good pitcher is a good pitcher, regardless of the game situation.

[Kimmi]

Interesting - Kind of like when someone says they have faith don't you think? To believe in something other than yourself. Something you might not be able to prove, see, or touch I think is not a bad thing. What do you think the big guy points to when he crosses home plate? Not everything can be proven or disproven. Sometimes things just seem to happen.

 

 

There's nothing wrong with having faith. When Papi is up to bat in a clutch situation, I have faith that he is going to come through. When the Sox were stinking early last year, I had faith that they were going to turn it around. I have faith in a lot of things.

 

In terms of some baseball concepts, there is very strong evidence or sometimes even proof that the concept is false. It's hard to have faith in something that has been proven false.

[cp176]

Yeah but this isn't about faith. It's about baseball. But feel free to keep comparing apples to not oranges, but rather spaceships.

 

Maybe in your world faith isn't quite as important. It is just too bad that you don't have just a little bit of niceness to you. You would almost come off as sounding somewhat credible. But you are not nice. Before the cheese slides off your cracker once again, just forget about it. You clearly need this forum to vent and express your very interesting views so have a good time.

[Bellhorn04]

Well if you define clutch as the lack of choking, then I guess we can say that clutch exists. In that case though, pretty much every MLB player is clutch. With all the competition there is, you're not going to make it to the majors if you can't handle and perform under pressure.

 

The idea of clutch as an ability to raise one's game to a higher level than normal in pressure situations is just false.

 

Now I think we are much closer to being on the same page. I have come to think that 'clutch' means 'not choking' rather than raising one's game, as you say. So you can only be 'clutch' in comparison to competitors who are 'choking' more than you are.

[example1]

It's quantifiable.

 

I'll give you this, and this is my personal theory which I will substantiate in the future: It's not that clutch doesn't exist, it's that we're looking at the wrong type of ballplayer when trying to assign "clutchness". I think pitchers are the ones who can be "clutch".

 

Did you steal this theory from me at some point? I've thought the same thing.

 

As someone who pitched in my youth I can speak to the jelly-like feeling that occurs when you're trying to throw the ball in a tough situation. What's worse is that you can not just give up hits to the other guy, but you can literally fail to throw the ball over the plate at all and totally embarrass yourself. It's such a mind game to pitch and I can only imagine what that's like when there's two guys on in the bottom of the 8th, up by a run in a playoff game, in front of 50,000 people and on TV in front of millions.

 

Batters need to see ball/hit ball; pitchers need to repeat their entire motion, release the ball at the right time, etc., It just intuitively seems like something that has greater physical complexity and more room for error when the stakes are high.

 

One thing I think would be neat for making the game more "modern" and TV friendly would be to try having heartbeat monitors (and maybe other vital signs) that the viewer at home can see. I bet there's the technology to do this without any interference with the player's performance. This could really help reflect the moments that are really tense in a different sort of way. Just a thought.

[a700hitter]

Now I think we are much closer to being on the same page. I have come to think that 'clutch' means 'not choking' rather than raising one's game, as you say. So you can only be 'clutch' in comparison to competitors who are 'choking' more than you are.

I read something by Tom Boswell about Jack Nicklaus. Boswell's research from interviewing many golfers was that they all choked. Theyadmitted it to Boswell. The successful ones were the ones who choked the least or who choked last. Nicklaus was a god-like figure among golfers, because Nicklaus never choked in their opinion.

[Ogden]

C L U T C H

 

 

The debate goes on and on and on and on. And it's a long season.

 

 

 

http://www.ohio.com/polopoly_fs/1.264970.1329282468!/image/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_500/meeker15cut-05.jpg

[Bellhorn04]

I read something by Tom Boswell about Jack Nicklaus. Boswell's research from interviewing many golfers was that they all choked. Theyadmitted it to Boswell. The successful ones were the ones who choked the least or who choked last. Nicklaus was a god-like figure among golfers, because Nicklaus never choked in their opinion.

 

Absolutely. Choking is a big factor in golf and it's pretty much out in the open. After all, it's the game where many players have gotten 'the yips'.

[cp176]

Absolutely. Choking is a big factor in golf and it's pretty much out in the open. After all, it's the game where many players have gotten 'the yips'.

 

People tend to focus in on all of the good shots people hit in golf. It is really a game of how bad are your bad shots. Keep it in play!

[seabeachfred]

Did you steal this theory from me at some point? I've thought the same thing.

 

As someone who pitched in my youth I can speak to the jelly-like feeling that occurs when you're trying to throw the ball in a tough situation. What's worse is that you can not just give up hits to the other guy, but you can literally fail to throw the ball over the plate at all and totally embarrass yourself. It's such a mind game to pitch and I can only imagine what that's like when there's two guys on in the bottom of the 8th, up by a run in a playoff game, in front of 50,000 people and on TV in front of millions.

 

Batters need to see ball/hit ball; pitchers need to repeat their entire motion, release the ball at the right time, etc., It just intuitively seems like something that has greater physical complexity and more room for error when the stakes are high.

 

One thing I think would be neat for making the game more "modern" and TV friendly would be to try having heartbeat monitors (and maybe other vital signs) that the viewer at home can see. I bet there's the technology to do this without any interference with the player's performance. This could really help reflect the moments that are really tense in a different sort of way. Just a thought.

 

Yup, you've been there Ex1 and I remember the same thing from my experiences on the mound even though I was mainly a centerfielder. Sometimes I think ML pitchers should be above that feeling but they are not robots but humans and each pitcher deals with tension and pressure in their own way. That's why I was so amazed at Koi two seasons ago. He was almost automatic and even when he let that one game get away at TB in the ALDS he came storming back the next day and then was lights out in the ALCS and WS.

[Kimmi]

Now I think we are much closer to being on the same page. I have come to think that 'clutch' means 'not choking' rather than raising one's game, as you say. So you can only be 'clutch' in comparison to competitors who are 'choking' more than you are.

 

I don't think that the competitors at the major league level are 'choking' more than the so called 'clutch' players are though. The chokers have been weeded out by this stage. The guys at the major league level are all more or less the same degree of clutch, relative to their normal performance level. In other words, Ortiz is not more clutch than say, Victorino is. He's just a better hitter, period.

[Kimmi]

I read something by Tom Boswell about Jack Nicklaus. Boswell's research from interviewing many golfers was that they all choked. Theyadmitted it to Boswell. The successful ones were the ones who choked the least or who choked last. Nicklaus was a god-like figure among golfers, because Nicklaus never choked in their opinion.

 

 

I am sure that all MLB players have 'choked' in some key moments, even Papi. I have seen him look a little too anxious in a big at bat before. Having choked at one point or another does not make one a choker though.

[Kimmi]

The debate goes on and on and on and on. And it's a long season.

 

 

Are you not enjoying the debate Ogden?

[sk7326]

Are you not enjoying the debate Ogden?

 

When a good hitter strikes out in a big situation - it sure feels like he choked to me. Losses ruin my night. But I'm also not a GM or talent evaluator - I wouldn't want them to look at players so reductively.

[Kimmi]

When a good hitter strikes out in a big situation - it sure feels like he choked to me. Losses ruin my night. But I'm also not a GM or talent evaluator - I wouldn't want them to look at players so reductively.

 

 

I hear ya sk. Losses ruin my night too. And the following day. My mood goes how the Red Sox go. I know I shouldn't let it affect me so much, but I can't help it. The great thing about baseball is that after a heartbreaking loss, you usually only have to wait one day until they play again. I don't think I could be a die hard football fan and have to wait an entire week after a tough loss to see the team play again.

[Ogden]

Are you not enjoying the debate Ogden?

 

 

Is it really a debate when it is page after page of saying the same thing over and over but slightly different? My only thought is will it ebb and flow for the next 6 months or will it maintain its consistency. I'll report back after the World Series.

Edited March 7, 2015 by Ogden

[Ogden]

When a good hitter strikes out in a big situation - it sure feels like he choked to me. Losses ruin my night. But I'm also not a GM or talent evaluator - I wouldn't want them to look at players so reductively.

 

 

It makes you wonder how many GMs and managers have ulcers.

[Kimmi]

Is it really a debate when it is page after page of saying the same thing over and over but slightly different? My only thought is will it ebb and flow for the next 6 months or will it maintain its consistency. I'll report back after the World Series.

 

 

I just love talking about stuff like this. I will talk to whoever will listen. The hard part is finding people who want to listen. It doesn't take long for their eyes to start glazing over. LOL