The Jon Lester contract situation

[Bellhorn04]

J_E, you are all worked up. LOL!!! What difference does it make if the Sox lucked out by getting screwed over by the Yankees in Tex sweepstakes? There was a way to not give Tex the chance to see if the Yankees would match the Sox offer. You don't leave his house unless you have his signature --a take it or leave it offer. The yankees have done that very successfully in negotiations. Make your final offer and tell the player when you leave the offer will be withdrawn and there will not be another offer. The Sox brass didn't close the deal with their whole executive team there. That was a failure. He was the centerpiece of the offseason plan. They didn't get it done when they had him cornered and the Yanks hadn't even entered the process. Don't get your undies twisted in a knot. Theo f***ed up plenty of negotiations. He made an utter fool of himself trying to sign Jose Contreras. He misjudged the market for Dice K and outbid everyone by a mile, and he way overpaid Carl Crawford, Julio Lugo and Renteria. He really was terrible at negotiating, but it's past history and we have 3 championships despite those mistakes.

 

So you're saying the Yankees are successful negotiators who don't overpay like the Sox did for guys like Dice and Crawford?

 

What about Tanaka? Who did they have to outbid and by how much? I heard the Cubs offered $120 million. That's $35 million less.

 

What about Ellsbury? Who was the other bidder for him?

 

And oh yeah, that little 10 year extension for A-Rod when he opted out...

[mvp 78]

So you're saying the Yankees are successful negotiators who don't overpay like the Sox did for guys like Dice and Crawford?

 

What about Tanaka? Who did they have to outbid and by how much? I heard the Cubs offered $120 million. That's $35 million less.

 

What about Ellsbury? Who was the other bidder for him?

 

And oh yeah, that little 10 year extension for A-Rod when he opted out...

 

And the ridiculous money they threw away on an aging Jeter.

[SoxSport]

Regarding Boras, the Yankees are traditionally his meal ticket--his path to salary inflation. They get first dibs on his pickings. They particularly like to "steal" Red Sox centerfielders the year after the Red Sox win a championship. First Damon, then Ellsbury. In each case, the short RF porch in Yankee stadium made each player more valuable to the Yankees than the Red Sox. In each case, they simply offered much more than the Red Sox were willing to pay. The difference is the Yankees basically swapped Cano for Ellsbury, and that I think was a mistake. Ells is no Cano.

[a700hitter]

How do you know this? You don't.

 

I think the only plausible explanation for why that meeting with Teixeira went sideways is that it was when they found out that the Yankees had indeed entered the process.

 

It's actually pretty implausible that the Yankees had no interest in Tex until then, and suddenly decided to pull $180 million out of the sock drawer to scoop him up.

It's also plausible that they just botched the negotiation. We can agree to disagree. The public reports were that the Yankees at the time were not interested or involved. The Red Sox certainly conducted themselves accordingly. Even after they walked away, the feeling was still that he would become a Red Sox. I attended Christmas at Fenway that winter, and Lucchino and others were there and WEEI was broadcaasting from there that day interviewing various Sox officials. Everyone was still very positive about getting Tex. If the Yankees were involved, they should have known and backed away. As for the theory that Boras likes to screw us over, that is very implausible. We are one of the small handful of franchises that can afford his clients. Pissing on us would not help create a market for him. We can agree to disagree. But I will reiterate that all public reports were that the Yankees were not involved and we sent our full management team to lock him down. From that, I conclude that they botched it. I am not the one assuming both unknown and unreported facts to support my theory.

[a700hitter]

So you're saying the Yankees are successful negotiators who don't overpay like the Sox did for guys like Dice and Crawford?

 

What about Tanaka? Who did they have to outbid and by how much? I heard the Cubs offered $120 million. That's $35 million less.

 

What about Ellsbury? Who was the other bidder for him?

 

And oh yeah, that little 10 year extension for A-Rod when he opted out...

I never said that they didn't overpay players. They have the financial resources to get their guys, and at least they are consistent in that they get the guys they go after. We gave Theo excuses for not getting targeted players saying that he didn't want to overpay and couldn't compete with Yankee money, but somehow he managed to grossly overpay a bunch of players that the Yankees didn't want.

[Bellhorn04]

Here's one story that came out after Teixeira signed.

 

Teixeira’s Wife Made the Call: Yankees

By JACK CURRY, New York Times

Published: January 6, 2009

 

Thirteen days before Christmas, Mark Teixeira, the Yankees’ $180 million man, was having dinner with his wife, Leigh, when he pleaded with her for insight about the future. If everything was equal among Teixeira’s suitors, he said, where would she rather see him play? Leigh admitted to preferring the Yankees.

Mark Teixeira, with wife, Leigh, and agent, Scott Boras, said he decided Dec. 12 on the Yankees with help from Leigh.

Once Leigh chose the Yankees, Teixeira instructed Scott Boras, his agent, to try to make the deal happen. Eleven days later, after a strained meeting, in which the Boston Red Sox walked out on Teixeira, he agreed to an eight-year contract with the Yankees.

As sweet as Teixeira’s reliance on his wife may seem to some, the Red Sox surely do not think it was cute. John Henry, the owner of the Red Sox; Larry Lucchino, their president; and General Manager Theo Epstein trekked to Texas to meet with Teixeira on Dec. 18, six days after Leigh revealed a preference for the Yankees. The Red Sox would not have sent three executives to Teixeira’s home unless they were confident about signing him.

Leigh’s feelings regarding the Yankees had not been publicized until Tuesday, and the Red Sox may wonder if they had a serious chance to sign Teixeira. Boras dismissed the notion that the Red Sox were misled and said part of the free-agent process included teams sometimes charging that they were “strung along.”

“As far as Boston goes, I think Boston knows they got good-faith proposals and they were given proposals, which means, if accepted, the player would have signed the proposal,” Boras said. “If teams reject them, they cannot in any way say they were strung along.”

Teixeira noted how he would not have taken “half as much” to play in New York, his first choice. But, once the Yankees increased their offer to $22.5 million a year from $20 million, he called it an easy decision. The improved offer came less than a week after Boston’s unsuccessful meeting with Teixeira.

“I wasn’t stringing teams along,” Teixeira said.

Henry said the Red Sox were unaware of Leigh’s preference for the Yankees, but “felt all along that the Yankees were going to get the last call” from Boras. Since the Red Sox had proposed an eight-year deal for about $170 million, Henry said he found it curious they were told “that we were the low bidders and Boston wasn’t high” on Teixeira’s list.

“At one point, I asked Scott, given their feelings, why we shouldn’t pull out,” Henry said in an e-mail message. “His answer was, ‘Maybe you should.’ And we did.”

By leaving the negotiations, it seemed as if the Red Sox were calling Boras’s bluff and were trying to get him to prove that he had a better offer from the Los Angeles Angels, Baltimore or Washington. As Henry had expected, Boras still had the Yankees on speed dial, too.

While Boras acknowledged that Leigh’s opinion about the Yankees “was the deciding factor” for Teixeira, he said her most definitive remarks were offered at the end of the process. Up until the day Teixeira agreed to terms with the Yankees, Brian Cashman, their general manager, said he was unsure if they would sign him.

[mvp 78]

“At one point, I asked Scott, given their feelings, why we shouldn’t pull out,” Henry said in an e-mail message. “His answer was, ‘Maybe you should.’ And we did.”

[Bellhorn04]

I never said that they didn't overpay players. They have the financial resources to get their guys, and at least they are consistent in that they get the guys they go after. We gave Theo excuses for not getting targeted players saying that he didn't want to overpay and couldn't compete with Yankee money, but somehow he managed to grossly overpay a bunch of players that the Yankees didn't want.

 

There was a case of the Yankees not getting a player they desperately wanted: Cliff Lee, who took less money to go to the Phillies.

[a700hitter]

“As far as Boston goes, I think Boston knows they got good-faith proposals and they were given proposals, which means, if accepted, the player would have signed the proposal,” Boras said. “If teams reject them, they cannot in any way say they were strung along.”

Strip away everything else in the article and this tells me Henry and Co. blew it by walking away.

[a700hitter]

There was a case of the Yankees not getting a player they desperately wanted: Cliff Lee, who took less money to go to the Phillies.

And I will always like Cliff Lee for doing so.

[jacksonianmarch]

The Yankees have to offer more than the competition. The take home when you work in NYC is so much smaller than everywhere else. The NYC tax is 10%, whereas a place like Seattle has no income tax. Anyone who doesn't expect NY to pay a premium, isn't a good businessman

[Behindenemylines]

The Yankees have to offer more than the competition. The take home when you work in NYC is so much smaller than everywhere else. The NYC tax is 10%, whereas a place like Seattle has no income tax. Anyone who doesn't expect NY to pay a premium, isn't a good businessman

 

Anyone who doesn't see that the $pankees have no budget isn't realistic. They talked a good game this off season, but when all was said and done we saw what they did with their spending like a drunk sailor.

[Bellhorn04]

Anyone who doesn't see that the $pankees have no budget isn't realistic. They talked a good game this off season, but when all was said and done we saw what they did with their spending like a drunk sailor.

 

They do have limits though, otherwise Cano would still be with them or they would have signed Drew and some relievers.

 

I think it all revolves around what Cashman can talk Hal into.

[SoxSport]

Anyone who doesn't see that the $pankees have no budget isn't realistic. They talked a good game this off season, but when all was said and done we saw what they did with their spending like a drunk sailor.

 

Yeah, the media doesn't talk in these terms--about the huge salary disparities in MLB. That's because the money is coming from--the media!

The Dodgers and the Yankees should win every game, when you look at how much money they spend vs other teams. They should be held to higher standards--and criticized when they fail. But the media doesn't criticize big money--they're part of the system.

[SoxSport]

And I will always like Cliff Lee for doing so.

 

Lee is in the minority. Most will opt for the money.

 

The Yankees have long known they have a cable TV/marketing advantage over other teams, and they have to maximize that leverage. You take what is given to you. Cashman talks about the need for a strong farm system, but I doubt anybody else in that organization believes it. Not that they don't spend money on that, too.

Edited April 21, 2014 by SoxSport

[SoxSport]

The African runners are getting ready to run the Boston Marathon right now on TV. Grouped at the front. They win this thing every year because they run as a team--especially the Kenyans and Ethiopians. Never as individuals. Salazar as coach did this with his two runners (one British, one American) in the 5000 meters last Olympics, and finished 1-2. That's how you beat the Africans.

[mvp 78]

Which is key info regarding a Lester extension. Run as a team. There is no "i" in Lester.

[Spudboy]

Why mention the marathon in this thread?

[sk7326]

Lee is in the minority. Most will opt for the money.

 

The Yankees have long known they have a cable TV/marketing advantage over other teams, and they have to maximize that leverage. You take what is given to you. Cashman talks about the need for a strong farm system, but I doubt anybody else in that organization believes it. Not that they don't spend money on that, too.

 

Oh they believe it - their 1996-2001 run was built on homegrown talent. The financial advantage lets you keep the team together. Yes, they bought the 2009 champion - but the odds of a guy of Sabathia's caliber entering the FA market now is lower than it used to be. The Yanks, like the Sox and Dodgers, have some edges - but you do seem to misstate how the Yankees have used the leverage in the past.

[sk7326]

ESPN Insider said Lester market is $150M, someone will give him that, largely because he's a big game pitcher. Red Sox will need to up their offer by $40M minimum to retain him.

 

It's not because he's a big game pitcher - it's because he is an every start pitcher. I think it is the one thing the "Lester is overvalued" commenters on the board totally miss - the value of his ability to take the ball 30-35 times a year without having to worry about him. A guy like that can make your entire pitching staff better.

[Station 13]

If this doesn't get done, I hope we acquired Cliff Lee. He's an ace, and could hand the ball to Owens after 2015. Send them Webster and whatever they need.

 

I believe Lackey makes minimum next season. Peavy is a FA. Lester too if they get turn off with a 6+ year deal he demands.

[redsoxrules]

I don't agree that Lesters market is 150. That's just shy of the top tier pitchers in the game.

And he doesn't belong in that category. He's not even a true ace

[Station 13]

The numbers of years is dragging it out. Same with Ellsbury, they offer 5 and won't go beyond. They offered Lester 4, I think they'll caved and give 5+.

 

I still want Lee though even if Lester is here.

Edited April 24, 2014 by Station 13

[SoxSport]

Oh they believe it - their 1996-2001 run was built on homegrown talent. The financial advantage lets you keep the team together. Yes, they bought the 2009 champion - but the odds of a guy of Sabathia's caliber entering the FA market now is lower than it used to be. The Yanks, like the Sox and Dodgers, have some edges - but you do seem to misstate how the Yankees have used the leverage in the past.

 

The Yankees and now the Dodgers are in a salary/income class by themselves. Even the Phillies are ahead of the Red Sox. Wish some of you guys would look this stuff up before you make judgements.

[SoxSport]

The numbers of years is dragging it out. Same with Ellsbury, they offer 5 and won't go beyond. They offered Lester 4, I think they'll caved and give 5+.

 

I still want Lee though even if Lester is here.

 

We don't really know what the numbers are. The media can throw out any numbers they want, depending on their agenda. They did not offer Ellsbury anything close to $20 million for more than 5 years--that's what was published locally. The guy isn't worth 7 years at 22 million, but that's what the Yankees had to do to get him. They will feel the bite in his 5th year--that's why they are in trouble and have to buy every year.

 

As for Lester, 4 years is low ball--and they know it. He's worth 5 years in the 18 mil range. Maybe another option year. His arm is sound.

[SoxSport]

If this doesn't get done, I hope we acquired Cliff Lee. He's an ace, and could hand the ball to Owens after 2015. Send them Webster and whatever they need.

 

I believe Lackey makes minimum next season. Peavy is a FA. Lester too if they get turn off with a 6+ year deal he demands.

 

They have some good pitching prospects, e.g., Owens, Rinauldo, etc. , and expect a few of these guys will be in the rotation in the next year or two. They have a pretty solid committment to younger players the next few years. I doubt any big FAs are on the horizon for them.

Lester might get a big deal because he's home grown, and his arm is sound.

[SoxSport]

It's not because he's a big game pitcher - it's because he is an every start pitcher. I think it is the one thing the "Lester is overvalued" commenters on the board totally miss - the value of his ability to take the ball 30-35 times a year without having to worry about him. A guy like that can make your entire pitching staff better.

 

Sounds like ESPN is trying to push the Lester price up to Yankee levels. Watch out for those NY-based networks. Chances are he'll extend in Boston for something short of $20 million for 5-6 years. Maybe an option in the 6th year.

[User Name]

The Yankees and now the Dodgers are in a salary/income class by themselves. Even the Phillies are ahead of the Red Sox. Wish some of you guys would look this stuff up before you make judgements.

 

The irony is burning my skin.

[Bellhorn04]

The Yankees and now the Dodgers are in a salary/income class by themselves. Even the Phillies are ahead of the Red Sox. Wish some of you guys would look this stuff up before you make judgements.

 

Look it up, huh? You crack me up. Another poster gave you this link to the Forbes Business of Baseball annual report a couple of weeks ago. The Red Sox are #2 in gross revenue and #3 in franchise market value.

 

http://www.forbes.com/pictures/mlm45fdgdd/3-boston-red-sox-5/

[joeycaps]

I never thought lester was a great pitcher, I think Lackey's better. I wouldn't put lester in the same class as verlander or schurzer, but hes gonna want a huge payday. I would much rather have david price