If we should happen to win Game 6, who's our WS MVP?

[Thunder]

No question it's Papi.

[Orange Juiced]

The Cardinals made a major error with respect to their roster construction. They kept Shelby Miller, even though they don't ever use him, on the roster. Why? Personally, I think he's a terrific pitcher and I can't understand why they wouldn't use him. But hey, whatever. It left them without an extra positional player that may have come in handy. Not that they have a lot of guys on the bench that can hit, but adding another player may have allowed Matheny to make some moves that he otherwise hasn't.

[Dojji]

Overlay being a Red Sox fan onto the Cards experience to this point in the WS. Would we not be going completely nuts on Methany at this point?

 

Absolutely. The defensive mistakes and lack of character shown by the Cardinals in this world series has been shocking -- not what I expected at all.

[User Name]

Absolutely. The defensive mistakes and lack of character shown by the Cardinals in this world series has been shocking -- not what I expected at all.

 

Neither has the defensive ineptitude of the Sox. What's your point? These things happen on the big stage.

[Bellhorn04]

Neither has the defensive ineptitude of the Sox. What's your point? These things happen on the big stage.

 

In the 2004 WS the Sox made 8 errors in the first 2 games.

[sk7326]

Also how World Series narrative evolves is funny ... after all that Game 6 of Texas-Saint Louis in 2011 ... known as one of the greatest baseball games played (right there with the 2004 Game 4 between us and New York, the Bobby Thomson homerun, Jack Morris 10 inning shutout - take your pick) was a SERIOUS clunker until the 7th inning or so.

 

The Cards have made a lot of mistakes - and their field managing has been awful. Boston has made a lot of mistakes, the field managing has been less awful. The home plate umpiring has been uniformly dreadful. It has not been an artful Series, but a compelling one - complete with surprise heroes (Felix Doubront, David Ross) and a lot of moments that will be hard to forget.

[Thunder]

In the 2004 WS the Sox made 8 errors in the first 2 games.

 

How could we have possibly won both of those games?

[mvp 78]

Sox + beards = character

 

Cards + Mickey Mouse = intangible losses

[sk7326]

How could we have possibly won both of those games?

 

by scoring 17 runs in between them ... funny thing about that series - 17 runs in the 2 games in Boston, turned around and allowed 1 run combined in the 2 Saint Louis games.

[Youk Of The Nation]

Its amazing to think Ortiz would have another hit, HR, and 3 RBI on his line if not for a great catch by Beltran in Game 1.

[Thunder]

Its amazing to think Ortiz would have another hit, HR, and 3 RBI on his line if not for a great catch by Beltran in Game 1.

 

Good point. Imagine that. If only he could have hit that sac fly in game 3. We could be watching the parade today.

[Northern Star]

Ortiz hasn't even struck out yet....

[Wasatch]

Either Ortiz or Lester.

[PaulaSox9]

I'll take a different approach. How about WE RED SOX FANS....who have loyally supported this team from Day 1...True in a way, but really I think the Entire Red Sox Team. I think it's only fair . the whole entire team deserves to be MVP. Remember it's a TEAM EFFORT that makes a winning team.

[seabeachfred]

How could we have possibly won both of those games?

 

Because we hit the living s*** out of the ball, that's why. We had a most potent lineup that season. I'm surprised you don't remember than Thunder.

[yankthis]

Lester has participated in 2 games. By tomorrow, Ortiz will have participated in all 6 games. If that argument doesn't hold enough water....

 

Decades from now, when people speak of "famous red sox players", David Ortiz' name will be mentioned along with the likes of Clemens, Williams, Yazstremski, Ruth; Lester will be long forgotten. The same can be said of each of their performances in this series alone; Ortiz' is already stuff of legend, while Lester is just another one of many who have two rock-solid WS pitching performances under their belt.

[Youk Of The Nation]

Because we hit the living s*** out of the ball, that's why. We had a most potent lineup that season. I'm surprised you don't remember than Thunder.

 

During the 2004 World Series Thunder was 4 years old.

[Youk Of The Nation]

Lester has participated in 2 games. By tomorrow, Ortiz will have participated in all 6 games. If that argument doesn't hold enough water....

 

Decades from now, when people speak of "famous red sox players", David Ortiz' name will be mentioned along with the likes of Clemens, Williams, Yazstremski, Ruth; Lester will be long forgotten. The same can be said of each of their performances in this series alone; Ortiz' is already stuff of legend, while Lester is just another one of many who have two rock-solid WS pitching performances under their belt.

 

Completely agree with the first part, vehemently disagree on the second.

[Thunder]

During the 2004 World Series Thunder was 4 years old.

 

I was 6. All I remember from 2004 was the ALCS comeback.

[jung]

I will probably never really understand how easily Sox fans dismiss what dominant pitching does and means especially in a seven game series. No wonder Lucchino and his buddies have always felt so compelled to go out and get some big bat somewhere.

[jacksonianmarch]

It's Ortiz, and it isn't close. Ortiz line is 11 for 15, 5R, 2 2b, 2HR, 6RBI, 4BB. That is .733/.789/1.267 for an OPS of 2.056. That isn't even human.

[Spitball]

Every other player on both teams seems to be swinging at beebees, but Otiz is hitting beachballs. I have never seen a more dominant hitting performance.

[Bellhorn04]

Lester has participated in 2 games. By tomorrow, Ortiz will have participated in all 6 games. If that argument doesn't hold enough water....

 

Decades from now, when people speak of "famous red sox players", David Ortiz' name will be mentioned along with the likes of Clemens, Williams, Yazstremski, Ruth; Lester will be long forgotten.

 

Lester's career is far from over, but after this tremendous season, he has moved up high in the echelons of Sox pitchers and he will be remembered for a long time.

 

Sox fans have very long memories. Jim Lonborg is still well-known to Sox fans and Lester's record is considerably greater.

[Bellhorn04]

It's Ortiz, and it isn't close. Ortiz line is 11 for 15, 5R, 2 2b, 2HR, 6RBI, 4BB. That is .733/.789/1.267 for an OPS of 2.056. That isn't even human.

 

But how can you compare a pitcher's performance with a hitter's, especially in a postseason series? Lester has done everything a pitcher can do for his team, Ortiz has done everything a hitter can do. That's why I think co-MVP's would be a logical choice.

[jung]

Every other player on both teams seems to be swinging at beebees, but Otiz is hitting beachballs. I have never seen a more dominant hitting performance.

 

Because there has not been one, at least not in our lifetimes if ever. What is remarkable though is that the Cards thanks to Methany have insisted on pitching to him. How or why does a manager insist on sticking his finger in the light socket time and time again. On top of that you have Wainwright thinking he is hitting good spots.....not to a LH power hitter.....another guy continually sticking his finger in the light socket. He is not going to beat Ortiz with that stuff even if off the plate. Ortiz is simply too good at this point but some of those locations are not good locations for pitches to a LH power hitter. I think one thing we simply do not credit Ortiz with enough that has had a big impact on his success this post season is that he is the best guess hitter left playing at this point. He and Cabrera are the best guess hitters on the planet and in a class by themselves in a very exclusive club. So you have Ortiz guessing right to type and Wainwright and the other Cards pitchers making pitches in some pretty bad locations. That is a recipe for disaster.

 

Ells has gotten some good pitches to hit and has done nothing with them. Got the bloop last night and salvaged himself as a result. Nava has gotten fewer good pitches while seeing a fair number of pitches. Drew is totally lost at the plate. He can't even keep two hands on the bat at this point (not to be construed as any effort to suggest he should not be starting at SS). Salty will need an off season and a hitting coach I think as his swing has gotten so lengthened out that it likely will take him some time to work his way back. Who else is there? Carp...Carp has not allowed himself to see enough pitches even when he gets up. IMO you can't ride the pine for days on end and then get up to the plate cold against a guy you have not seen ever, never mind this year and just hack at the first pitch. Go sit down and we will see you next year.

[sk7326]

But how can you compare a pitcher's performance with a hitter's, especially in a postseason series? Lester has done everything a pitcher can do for his team, Ortiz has done everything a hitter can do. That's why I think co-MVP's would be a logical choice.

 

As a general thing - Ortiz has impacted more games ... and one of Lester's wins was a blowout. It's nothing against Lester's work - which has been excellent ... but that does figure into things.

[Bellhorn04]

As a general thing - Ortiz has impacted more games ... and one of Lester's wins was a blowout. It's nothing against Lester's work - which has been excellent ... but that does figure into things.

 

OK, well I guess this is the same as the debate about whether a pitcher should win the regular season MVP. You get into the apples-and-oranges thing.

 

I don't accept the blowout argument though. A lot of Ortiz's hits were either in the Game 1 blowout or in games we lost. That shouldn't diminish his contributions.

[sk7326]

I will probably never really understand how easily Sox fans dismiss what dominant pitching does and means especially in a seven game series. No wonder Lucchino and his buddies have always felt so compelled to go out and get some big bat somewhere.

 

In the same breath, the Dodgers, Braves, Rays and Tigers can ponder what their dominant pitching did while sitting in front of their televisions ...

[marklmw]

Ortiz is making history at the plate while Lester is performing as a true ace on the worlds biggest stage. Hate to have to make a choice between the two.

[Beaneater]

But how can you compare a pitcher's performance with a hitter's, especially in a postseason series? Lester has done everything a pitcher can do for his team, Ortiz has done everything a hitter can do. That's why I think co-MVP's would be a logical choice.

 

This makes a lot of sense to me.