Bailey - Stay or Go?

[iortiz]

You arguably had the best duo in the last two innings in the majors already. Bard-Papelbon. The first, his career was screwed. The second was released. Whata brilliant move. Now we have a mess in that regard.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Let me see, since 2011, what you got?

 

Jenks

Aceves

Melancon

Bailey

Hanrahan

Plus other inside experiments.

 

A lot attempts -- regardless the money, prospects and mostly Ls they taxed us --, and Zero results in a year and half. Zero.

 

... And now they about to try with another unproven closer.

 

Is this a magical spot? Naaaahhh but very few can succeed in that role and mostly in environments like Boston. You had the cream of the cream and let him walk. Just like that. Nothing new here, Good things in life cost. You had a gem and wanted to pay like if it was a fake pearl. Some people will never understand this.

 

Anyways, hopefully this new experiment works out.

 

Jenks and Aceves were both acquired to pitch middle innings, not close.

 

You could make the argument that Jenks was acquired to close after Papelbon left, or you could make the argument that Aceves ended up closing after Papelbon left, but you can't have your cake and eat it too. Jenks never closed, Aceves was never acquired to close.

[a700hitter]

Jenks and Aceves were both acquired to pitch middle innings, not close.

 

You could make the argument that Jenks was acquired to close after Papelbon left, or you could make the argument that Aceves ended up closing after Papelbon left, but you can't have your cake and eat it too. Jenks never closed, Aceves was never acquired to close.

It was widely known that Jenks was signed as closer insurance when Paps walked.

[iortiz]

Jenks and Aceves were both acquired to pitch middle innings, not close.

 

You could make the argument that Jenks was acquired to close after Papelbon left, or you could make the argument that Aceves ended up closing after Papelbon left, but you can't have your cake and eat it too. Jenks never closed, Aceves was never acquired to close.

 

That's not my point at all.

 

My point is that all those experiments/acquisitions/trades haven't worked out. You had the solution and let it walk.

[Station 13]

That's not my point at all.

 

My point is that all those experiments/acquisitions/trades haven't worked out. You had the solution and let it walk.

 

The Sox had possibly a solution, they just f***ing stupid with it. Bard/Tazawa could been a nice 8/9 inning combo at the end of games. Instead they went out to block those guys. This is on them.

[SoxFanForsyth]

You arguably had the best duo in the last two innings in the majors already. Bard-Papelbon. The first, his career was screwed. The second was released. Whata brilliant move. Now we have a mess in that regard.

 

Daniel Bard: 09-11 - 2.88 ERA

Jonathan Papelbon: 09-11 - 2.89 ERA

 

Koji Uehara: 2013: 2.10 ERA

Junichi Tazawa: 2013: 2.51 ERA

Andrew Miller: 2013: 2.77 ERA

Craig Breslow: 2013: 3.15 ERA

Alex Wilson: 2013: 2.57 ERA

 

The back end of the Sox bullpen is just as strong right now as it ever was. It just needs an adjustment as to the roles.

[iortiz]

It was widely known that Jenks was signed as closer insurance when Paps walked.

 

At this point this matter has turned like the Curse of the Bambino

[iortiz]

Daniel Bard: 09-11 - 2.88 ERA

Jonathan Papelbon: 09-11 - 2.89 ERA

 

Koji Uehara: 2013: 2.10 ERA

Junichi Tazawa: 2013: 2.51 ERA

Andrew Miller: 2013: 2.77 ERA

Craig Breslow: 2013: 3.15 ERA

Alex Wilson: 2013: 2.57 ERA

 

The back end of the Sox bullpen is just as strong right now as it ever was. It just needs an adjustment as to the roles.

 

Thing is that all your boys are unproven closers.

 

Notice that I'm not saying that those experiments won't work it out. Point is that you already had the solution. Now, you have a year and a half without results. Hopefully this time work it out for us.

[SoxFanForsyth]

It was widely speculated that Jenks was signed as closer insurance when Paps walked.

 

Fixed it for you. All the beat writers said "oh they brought in a former closer, this must mean he's replacing Papelbon when he leaves." It was an assumption that never came to fruition because of Jenks being a complete moron (of which we can all agree).

[SoxFanForsyth]

Thing is that all your boys are unproven closers.

 

Notice that I'm not saying that those experiments won't work it out. Point is that you already had the solution. Now, you have a year and a half without results. Hopefully this time work it out for us.

 

All closers are unproven until they are given a chance.

 

You have to give your young kids the chance to take on significant roles or else you will turn into the Dodgers, Angels, and eventually Yankees by overpaying for proven talent that diminishes with age.

[iortiz]

The Sox had possibly a solution, they just f***ing stupid with it. Bard/Tazawa could been a nice 8/9 inning combo at the end of games. Instead they went out to block those guys. This is on them.

 

When Papelbon walked I thought that Bard was the natural replacement too, although at the time I thought that he wasn't ready for the role, but you didn't have another option. Instead they made him SP and the rest is history.

 

Yes Station, this is on them.

[Bellhorn04]

Fixed it for you. All the beat writers said "oh they brought in a former closer, this must mean he's replacing Papelbon when he leaves."

 

Hard to believe they would give Jenks $12 million for 2 years of being a 7-8th inning guy.

[mvp 78]

Without any assistance, this conversation somehow gets dragged back to Paps. Big surprise there... :thumbdown

 

Anyway, I don't see the issue with just giving Taz a shot and leaving the past in the past rather than bringing it up all the time. That ship sailed long ago. As a Taiwanese announcer would say he's "gone like an ex-girlfriend that will never come back."

[iortiz]

All closers are unproven until they are given a chance.

 

You have to give your young kids the chance to take on significant roles or else you will turn into the Dodgers, Angels, and eventually Yankees by overpaying for proven talent that diminishes with age.

 

Not sure if this is regarding Pap. But if so, Pap wouldn't be the cause of a debacle SFF or turned this team like the Dodgers or the LAA, and you now it. Just the opposite.

 

On the other hand I have never said that the Tazawa/Koji or whatever experiment won't work it out. Never.

[Bellhorn04]

All closers are unproven until they are given a chance.

 

You have to give your young kids the chance to take on significant roles or else you will turn into the Dodgers, Angels, and eventually Yankees by overpaying for proven talent that diminishes with age.

 

We already did that with our offseason signings.

[Bellhorn04]

Without any assistance, this conversation somehow gets dragged back to Paps. Big surprise there... :thumbdown

 

Anyway, I don't see the issue with just giving Taz a shot and leaving the past in the past rather than bringing it up all the time. That ship sailed long ago. As a Taiwanese announcer would say he's "gone like an ex-girlfriend that will never come back."

 

For better or worse, the ship hasn't sailed quite yet. There's a pretty good chance the Phillies are willing to trade him.

[iortiz]

Hard to believe they would give Jenks $12 million for 2 years of being a 7-8th inning guy.

 

The other day Ted posted a very interesting article about the money expended in closers and the collateral damages that this team had to deal with since Pap left. It's crazy how his departure has damaged this team, not only in money but in other situations.

[User Name]

For better or worse, the ship hasn't sailed quite yet. There's a pretty good chance the Phillies are willing to trade him.

 

Hopefully the Sox aren't in on that.

[iortiz]

For better or worse, the ship hasn't sailed quite yet. There's a pretty good chance the Phillies are willing to trade him.

 

If the option is open, we should at least explore it, mostly considering that this year we could have good chances to splash after 5 years of failures.

[Standing Room]

All the talk about our failures to find a closer since Papelbon has left seem to conveniently ignore the fact that we had issues with the closer role while Papelbon was still on the team . In 2009, Papelbon blew a save opportunity and got the loss in Game 3 of the ALDS, essentially ending our season. In 2010, Papelbon had a 3.90 ERA and blew 8 saves. And then in 2011, Papelbon blew two save opportunities in the last week of the season. And he again essentially ended our season on September 28th blowing a save and taking a loss.

 

Just because the people we've brought in to replace Papelbon have struggled, doesn't mean it was the wrong move to let Papelbon walk. If we had just promoted our best relievers from within, we could have saved a lot of money and prospects. Why compound the problem by spending more money and prospects on a declining Papelbon?

[Bellhorn04]

All the talk about our failures to find a closer since Papelbon has left seem to conveniently ignore the fact that we had issues with the closer role while Papelbon was still on the team . In 2009, Papelbon blew a save opportunity and got the loss in Game 3 of the ALDS, essentially ending our season. In 2010, Papelbon had a 3.90 ERA and blew 8 saves. And then in 2011, Papelbon blew two save opportunities in the last week of the season. And he again essentially ended our season on September 28th blowing a save and taking a loss.

 

I agree that Papelbon had a bad season in 2010. But I don't think the characterization of 2009 and 2011 is fair or consistent with how other players are evaluated.

 

The blown save in the 2009 ALDS came on the only runs he's allowed in 27 postseason innings.

 

We got swept in 3 games in 2009 so obviously the whole team has to share the blame. The same with 2011. Papelbon only blew 3 saves that season, meanwhile the team blew a 10 game lead in September.

 

By this reasoning, the Yankees have had issues with Rivera at closer because he blew Game 7 of the 2001 WS and Game 4 of the 2004 ALCS.

[iortiz]

All the talk about our failures to find a closer since Papelbon has left seem to conveniently ignore the fact that we had issues with the closer role while Papelbon was still on the team . In 2009, Papelbon blew a save opportunity and got the loss in Game 3 of the ALDS, essentially ending our season. In 2010, Papelbon had a 3.90 ERA and blew 8 saves. And then in 2011, Papelbon blew two save opportunities in the last week of the season. And he again essentially ended our season on September 28th blowing a save and taking a loss.

 

Just because the people we've brought in to replace Papelbon have struggled, doesn't mean it was the wrong move to let Papelbon walk. If we had just promoted our best relievers from within, we could have saved a lot of money and prospects. Why compound the problem by spending more money and prospects on a declining Papelbon?

 

I could make the same assessment for Mo by cherry picking his bad moments and that wouldn't mean that NY made wrong giving him that money.

 

Don't fool yourself my friend, Pap's departure was a mistake and is taxing us in so many different ways. That's a fact.

[MJantomaso]

Why not take a chance and let Taz attempt to be the closer? If he fails, remove him from the roll. If he succeeds, we just saved a ton of money and future prospects.

[mvp 78]

I could make the same assessment for Mo by cherry picking his bad moments and that wouldn't mean that NY made a wrong giving him that money.

 

Don't fool yourself my friend, Pap's departure was a mistake and is taxing us in so many different ways. That's a fact.

 

The mistake is in thinking that Paps is an infallible cure-all for the Sox failures.

[Bellhorn04]

Why not take a chance and let Taz attempt to be the closer? If he fails, remove him from the roll. If he succeeds, we just saved a ton of money and future prospects.

 

I'm pretty sure Taz will be given that opportunity. Probably sometime in this series.

[Bellhorn04]

The mistake is in thinking that Paps is an infallible cure-all for the Sox failures.

 

You're right, he's not. But a really solid closer would be an awfully nice addition to this team. Our bullpen would go from good to exceptional.

[iortiz]

I agree that Papelbon had a bad season in 2010. But I don't think the characterization of 2009 and 2011 is fair or consistent with how other players are evaluated.

 

The blown save in the 2009 ALDS came on the only runs he's allowed in 27 postseason innings.

 

We got swept in 3 games in 2009 so obviously the whole team has to share the blame. The same with 2011. Papelbon only blew 3 saves that season, meanwhile the team blew a 10 game lead in September.

 

By this reasoning, the Yankees have had issues with Rivera at closer because he blew Game 7 of the 2001 WS and Game 4 of the 2004 ALCS.

 

Plus he is talking about a decline. Last year he posted 38 SV/90% SV% in 70 IP with a 2.44 ERA. This year he has 14 SV and 1.95 ERA through 27 IP. He seems very athletic and unless he is hit by a truck or something, he'll be fine.

 

Plus he has said several times that he has become a better pitcher since arrived to Philly. He has developed his repertory and doesn't depend only in his fastball which still moves a lot and explodes topping 95.

 

If he comes back, this team will be a serious contender.

[iortiz]

The mistake is in thinking that Paps is an infallible cure-all for the Sox failures.

 

Nobody said that, but could heal several direct and collateral damages

[User Name]

You're right, he's not. But a really solid closer would be an awfully nice addition to this team. Our bullpen would go from good to exceptional.

 

The really solid closer may already be on this team and may not require prospects or additional financial commitment.

[iortiz]

You're right, he's not. But a really solid closer would be an awfully nice addition to this team. Our bullpen would go from good to exceptional.

 

Exactly. This BP would be like the Incredible Hulk, almost indestructible.