Dempster

[seabeachfred]

That move set them back two whe years before they could win another WS. What a blunder!

 

I thought that one out awhile before commenting on your post mvp. In 2006 we finished with the same record as the Yankees but they got the division and home field advantage in the playoffs because they won the season series. I believe strongly if we had kept and signed Cabrera we would have won the division and gotten home field advantage because Cabrera was a much more solid fielder than Renteria who made 30 errors that season and cost the Red Sox three or four games in the field alone. Cabrera has a very solid season for the Angels and most likely would have a big difference if we had him on our side instead of Edgar. That's not to say we would have won the WS that year, but it does say we would have made up at least one game and gotten to open the playoffs at home. From there who knows?

[Youk Of The Nation]

I thought that one out awhile before commenting on your post mvp. In 2006 we finished with the same record as the Yankees but they got the division and home field advantage in the playoffs because they won the season series. I believe strongly if we had kept and signed Cabrera we would have won the division and gotten home field advantage because Cabrera was a much more solid fielder than Renteria who made 30 errors that season and cost the Red Sox three or four games in the field alone. Cabrera has a very solid season for the Angels and most likely would have a big difference if we had him on our side instead of Edgar. That's not to say we would have won the WS that year, but it does say we would have made up at least one game and gotten to open the playoffs at home. From there who knows?

 

First of all, you meant 2005, not 2006. Second of all, I seriously doubt Orlando Cabrera instead of Edgar Renteria would have made the difference between winning the division that year. The 2005 team had other issues.

[User Name]

Awful pitching. Fred is no stranger to selective memory in order to drive home a clearly incorrect point.

[Behindenemylines]

Yeah, that's a good point about trading Nomar. But he got a good replacement SS (forget his name) who sparked them in the playoffs--then let him go to free agency the next year-- which I view as a mistake. That's when they got Renteria. An example of a GM finding the right chemistry, winning a WS, and then moving away from that chemistry the next year.

 

Nomar had some heavy hitting years in Boston, then went into a decline with leg ailments. That was a common symptom of steroid use, though nobody recognized how widespread steroid use was in those days. Canseco's accusations were laughed at, but turned out to be largely true--if you read the Mitchell report--going far beyond what the media has been willing to do on the subject.

 

Orlando Cabrera was the SS that gave the spark. He wasn't the greatest , but his chemistry within the 2004 roster seem to work big time. I always wondered why they let him walk after the 2004 season. Though not a great player, he was a solid player. We now know what happened at SS over the next few years.

[seabeachfred]

First of all, you meant 2005, not 2006. Second of all, I seriously doubt Orlando Cabrera instead of Edgar Renteria would have made the difference between winning the division that year. The 2005 team had other issues.

 

You're right about the year....didn't proofread my post before sending it. OTOH, we couldn't disagree more on that other matter. Since we finished with the same record as the Yankees in 2005, for you to tell me that Cabrera's solid fielding and clutch hitting wouldn't been worth ONE MORE GAME, well, let's just say we will have to agree to disagree with extreme prejudice. Frankly, I cannot fathom how you could say it wouldn't have made a difference since Renteria was a sieve in the infield that year and cost us at least three or four games defensively alone. Well, everyone has a right to his or her opinion and we have ours. Unfortunately in this case YOTN, we are on opposite polls. Merry Christmas to you.

[vjcsmoke]

Dempster is a nice 5th starter. But he makes too much money for that role. I hope we can dump his contract on somebody soon!

[Youk Of The Nation]

You're right about the year....didn't proofread my post before sending it. OTOH, we couldn't disagree more on that other matter. Since we finished with the same record as the Yankees in 2005, for you to tell me that Cabrera's solid fielding and clutch hitting wouldn't been worth ONE MORE GAME, well, let's just say we will have to agree to disagree with extreme prejudice. Frankly, I cannot fathom how you could say it wouldn't have made a difference since Renteria was a sieve in the infield that year and cost us at least three or four games defensively alone. Well, everyone has a right to his or her opinion and we have ours. Unfortunately in this case YOTN, we are on opposite polls. Merry Christmas to you.

 

In 2005, Orlando Cabrera hit .257, with 8HRs and 57 RBI. He had an OBP of .309 and a SLG of .365. His OPS+ was 81. Renteria hit .276, with 8HR and 70 RBI. He had a higher OBP and SLG and his OPS+ was 89. Now, those aren't huge differences, but two things stick out here: One, he was better offensively, if only a little. Meaning that O-Cab could quite possibly have lost that "one game" the Sox needed offensively like Renteria did defensively. Two, in 2004, the season prior, Renteria had a much, much better offensive season. This wasn't a guy signed to a stupidly obscene contract despite misgivings about injury or attitude, like Crawford or anyone else. This was a good signing on the face of it, and to pass on the starting shortstop for the previous year's NL Champions for a less-offensively talented guy in Cabrera would have been dumb. Did it turn out to be the wrong decision? Yes, but it happens. Renteria had 6 consecutive solid seasons offensively AND defensively leading up to 2005. There was no way to expect how poorly he played, and whether or not you think he is the reason the Sox didn't make it to the ALCS, you can hardly fault the FO for hiring him. Pitching was the main reason the Sox backslid after 2004. There were also plenty of guys the offensive shortcomings could be heaped on.

[a700hitter]

In 2005, Orlando Cabrera hit .257, with 8HRs and 57 RBI. He had an OBP of .309 and a SLG of .365. His OPS+ was 81. Renteria hit .276, with 8HR and 70 RBI. He had a higher OBP and SLG and his OPS+ was 89. Now, those aren't huge differences, but two things stick out here: One, he was better offensively, if only a little. Meaning that O-Cab could quite possibly have lost that "one game" the Sox needed offensively like Renteria did defensively. Two, in 2004, the season prior, Renteria had a much, much better offensive season. This wasn't a guy signed to a stupidly obscene contract despite misgivings about injury or attitude, like Crawford or anyone else. This was a good signing on the face of it, and to pass on the starting shortstop for the previous year's NL Champions for a less-offensively talented guy in Cabrera would have been dumb. Did it turn out to be the wrong decision? Yes, but it happens. Renteria had 6 consecutive solid seasons offensively AND defensively leading up to 2005. There was no way to expect how poorly he played, and whether or not you think he is the reason the Sox didn't make it to the ALCS, you can hardly fault the FO for hiring him. Pitching was the main reason the Sox backslid after 2004. There were also plenty of guys the offensive shortcomings could be heaped on.

It may have been second only to Crawford as a Theo bad signing. He couldn't give Renteria away after his one year in Boston. The Sox ate almost all of his salary and got a busted prospect that never amounted to anything.

[Youk Of The Nation]

What I was trying to point out though, is that it was only a bad signing in hindsight. Some guys, you can see the warning signs. Injuries, defensive ineptitude, bad attitude...or you can just look at a signing and say "too many years" or "too much money" or "I think this guy might be the Antichrist"...but going into it, Renteria looked great. There was no way to predict he would be so poor defensively, because there was no sign of it prior to, or after, Boston.

[a700hitter]

What I was trying to point out though, is that it was only a bad signing in hindsight. Some guys, you can see the warning signs. Injuries, defensive ineptitude, bad attitude...or you can just look at a signing and say "too many years" or "too much money" or "I think this guy might be the Antichrist"...but going into it, Renteria looked great. There was no way to predict he would be so poor defensively, because there was no sign of it prior to, or after, Boston.

He was too much money going into the deal.

[SoxSport]

In 2004 OCab hit .294 in 58g for the Red Sox , OPS .785, sparking them down the stretch and in the playoffs.

He hit .379 against the Yankees in the playoffs--OPS .873.

 

The guy was an obvious key in the stretch, and should have been re-signed. Epstein at that point was so full of hubris from winning a championship that he ignored what got them there and set out to dump a lot of salary on a NL SS. It burned the Red Sox. Nobody expected Renteria to underachieve, but he looked out of shape at times in Boston and was a huge disappointment.

 

OCab was an example of a GM getting away from the chemistry that won a championship. It is critical for the current Red Sox FO to understand who their core Championship players are, and keep them. Funny I never thought Ellsbury was one of those players (he was going to the highest bidder, anyways, with Boras). He spent enough time on the DL hurt, so they knew pretty much how to replace him. Plus they have Bradley. Neither is Drew, who has block Bogaerts/Middlebrooks written all over him. Napoli was the one indispensable FA guy, and they re-signed him. They have nobody to replace him at 1B. And then they made a very savvy sign at catcher with AJP, ditching Salty in a nice way when his defense got exposed in the playoffs.

 

This could be a repeat team in 2014 if those kids work out at CF and SS, and the SP stays healthy. Workman could well be the #5 starter. They have the luxury of giving the kids a chance. The Yankees must be envious.

Edited December 26, 2013 by SoxSport

[User Name]

What are you even talking about? They let Cabrera go because he was both chasing skirts and Renteria was a clear upgrade. Get a clue.

[vjcsmoke]

What are you even talking about? They let Cabrera go because he was both chasing skirts and Renteria was a clear upgrade. Get a clue.

 

Chasing skirts? *raise eyebrow*

[Palodios]

This is such ridiculous "Captain-Hindsight" craziness. After the 2004 offseason, was anyone talking about O-Cab being replaced by an almost equally valuable player? The real story was letting arguably the best starting pitcher in major league history go to free agency.

[Behindenemylines]

The one big difference was O-Cab proved he could play under the bright lights of Boston, and there were many who doubted whether Renteria could. That proved to be true. Comparing stats of one player to another doesn't always tell the full story. I think this was a Theo mistake.

[a700hitter]

The one big difference was O-Cab proved he could play under the bright lights of Boston, and there were many who doubted whether Renteria could. That proved to be true. Comparing stats of one player to another doesn't always tell the full story. I think this was a Theo mistake.

My recollection was that laRussa went on record with doubts about Renteria performing in Boston.

[a700hitter]

This is such ridiculous "Captain-Hindsight" craziness. After the 2004 offseason, was anyone talking about O-Cab being replaced by an almost equally valuable player? The real story was letting arguably the best starting pitcher in major league history go to free agency.

If they had kept Pedro and OCab, a strong argument could be made that they would have won back to back championships. Such a discussion is not a condemnation of the FO whose record of 3 World Championships in 10 years speaks for itself. It's just a "what if" discussion on a cold boring winters day. I don't know why people lose their minds over such discussions as if it is a terrible slight against the FO. Who gives a s*** about slighting FO people anyway, especially if they are no longer here. I'll get a good laugh if Theo keeps coming in last with the Cubs and gets fired. He grew up as a Red Sox fan, and he walked away from the greatest job in sports for a Red Sox fan. He left for the money just like Damon, Papelbon and Ellsbury. Yet people defend him like he is a family member. Amusing.

[Bellhorn04]

My recollection was that laRussa went on record with doubts about Renteria performing in Boston.

 

That's correct.

[seabeachfred]

In 2005, Orlando Cabrera hit .257, with 8HRs and 57 RBI. He had an OBP of .309 and a SLG of .365. His OPS+ was 81. Renteria hit .276, with 8HR and 70 RBI. He had a higher OBP and SLG and his OPS+ was 89. Now, those aren't huge differences, but two things stick out here: One, he was better offensively, if only a little. Meaning that O-Cab could quite possibly have lost that "one game" the Sox needed offensively like Renteria did defensively. Two, in 2004, the season prior, Renteria had a much, much better offensive season. This wasn't a guy signed to a stupidly obscene contract despite misgivings about injury or attitude, like Crawford or anyone else. This was a good signing on the face of it, and to pass on the starting shortstop for the previous year's NL Champions for a less-offensively talented guy in Cabrera would have been dumb. Did it turn out to be the wrong decision? Yes, but it happens. Renteria had 6 consecutive solid seasons offensively AND defensively leading up to 2005. There was no way to expect how poorly he played, and whether or not you think he is the reason the Sox didn't make it to the ALCS, you can hardly fault the FO for hiring him. Pitching was the main reason the Sox backslid after 2004. There were also plenty of guys the offensive shortcomings could be heaped on.

 

To me Cabrera was bigger than the sum of his parts. He was very steady in the field and I was disappointed the Red Sox didn't resign him. As for Renteria, his numbers before (and after) were very impressive but Tony LaRussa insisted that Edgar would have trouble playing in the pressure packed venue known as Fenway Park. At that time I found that statement to be strange because Renteria had always been a damn good clutch hitter. You are right about pitching being our Achilles that 2005 season but we still finished even-steven with the Yankees, and those 30 errors Renteria made (in my opinion anyway) was the difference in at least one game. Still, I'm going to keep arguing the point. Suffice to say, Cabrera was a real spark for our team in 2004 and though we didn't on a tear until about two weeks after he arrived he played a very big part in our late summer drive for the WC and subsequent dramatic charge towards winning the World Series. I had become a real Cabrera fan and was sorely disappointed we didn't resign him. Rumor had it we was involved with the wives and girlfriends of some of the players on the Red Sox and the front office didn't want him back. As I said a rumor.

[seabeachfred]

In 2004 OCab hit .294 in 58g for the Red Sox , OPS .785, sparking them down the stretch and in the playoffs.

He hit .379 against the Yankees in the playoffs--OPS .873.

 

The guy was an obvious key in the stretch, and should have been re-signed. Epstein at that point was so full of hubris from winning a championship that he ignored what got them there and set out to dump a lot of salary on a NL SS. It burned the Red Sox. Nobody expected Renteria to underachieve, but he looked out of shape at times in Boston and was a huge disappointment.

 

OCab was an example of a GM getting away from the chemistry that won a championship. It is critical for the current Red Sox FO to understand who their core Championship players are, and keep them. Funny I never thought Ellsbury was one of those players (he was going to the highest bidder, anyways, with Boras). He spent enough time on the DL hurt, so they knew pretty much how to replace him. Plus they have Bradley. Neither is Drew, who has block Bogaerts/Middlebrooks written all over him. Napoli was the one indispensable FA guy, and they re-signed him. They have nobody to replace him at 1B. And then they made a very savvy sign at catcher with AJP, ditching Salty in a nice way when his defense got exposed in the playoffs.

 

This could be a repeat team in 2014 if those kids work out at CF and SS, and the SP stays healthy. Workman could well be the #5 starter. They have the luxury of giving the kids a chance. The Yankees must be envious.

 

Getting Cabrera, Mienkiewitz and Roberts tightened our defense, added speed and chemistry to a team in a little need of the first two. OCab became a real favorite of mine SoxSport and it got personal with me that we let him go. True, at time Renteria was the better all around players but there were many who said despite that, Orlando was a better fit for the Red Sox. And you are spot on about Drew.

[User Name]

Cabrera was ACTIVELY TRYING TO BANG OTHER PLAYERS' WIVES. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that's a pretty good reason to let someone go in FA. Then again, here at talksox we apparently need rocket scientists to complete even the most menial of tasks.....

[RedSoxNC84]

Cabrera was ACTIVELY TRYING TO BANG OTHER PLAYERS' WIVES. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that's a pretty good reason to let someone go in FA. Then again, here at talksox we apparently need rocket scientists to complete even the most menial of tasks.....

 

Or make massive moves based on a hunch

[sk7326]

Getting Cabrera, Mienkiewitz and Roberts tightened our defense, added speed and chemistry to a team in a little need of the first two. OCab became a real favorite of mine SoxSport and it got personal with me that we let him go. True, at time Renteria was the better all around players but there were many who said despite that, Orlando was a better fit for the Red Sox. And you are spot on about Drew.

 

Renteria was a LOT better. He just had a career worst year with Boston. Drew had a solid run for us. Chemistry is a trailer of guys who can play baseball.

[Spudboy]

It was nice to see Dempster at the game yesterday.

 

His efforts were not always fruitful, but he always showed up and tried to do his best. I appreciate that.

 

I wish for him to have good health and a pleasant life after baseball if he is now done for good.