Shane Victornio? If So Cherington Must Go!

[Lord Snow]

$16M for several years of Jacoby is a steal compared to $13M for several years of the Flyin' Hawaiian.

 

+1

 

The Ellsbury hate really annoys me. I can't understand why everybody is so eager to ship him out of town. He isn't made of glass, and he has had freak, but serious, injuries.

 

I don't want to see him signed to an extension this off-season because there is a lot of risk involved but he comes out and hits .300/.360/.500 with 25 home runs and 25 stolen bases or better that is enough proof for me that he really is the 2011 MVP candidate and I'm 100% behind him getting an AAV north of $20M for 6-8 years.

 

Ellsbury keeps himself in great physical shape so he is the type who will age well (similar to Johnny Damon) if he can avoid major injuries.

 

His lack of quality performance last season is of no concern to me. Ellsbury keeps himself about 185 pounds with a lot of muscle (probably 20-30 pounds more than your average person) being out for 2 months and not being able to work out, he probably lost a good 10 pounds of muscle and with it has bat speed and power.

 

Don't be surprised if he comes out and catches fire early next season and rides it through the end of the season. If he hits 7-8 homers a month all season like he did in the second half of 2011 he can go deep 40+ times.

[mvp 78]

+1

 

The Ellsbury hate really annoys me. I can't understand why everybody is so eager to ship him out of town. He isn't made of glass, and he has had freak, but serious, injuries.

 

His lack of quality performance last season is of no concern to me.

 

1. People don't hate Ells. Theyjust don't think he can be signed to a reasonable extension.

 

2. Ells' 2012 production doesn't bother you, but it probably is of some concern to any team that would want him and how much they'd want to pay him.

[DaJOhan94]

They should have signed Josh Hamilton if you ask me.

[SoxSport]

People don't hate Ells. They hate Boras.

[jung]

Nobody here hates Ells....at least I don't think so. I do think that the folks that are going to have the most difficulty with Ells are going to be the folks that have expectations that he can repeat his big year and I just think that is an unreasonable expectation for him. If he got hurt less or if his performance did not fall off so much when he did get hurt then, I think those expectations would be realistic. However that is not the case. The first team that ends up signing him based on that expectation (and that is how it is going to work out) is IMO going to be very disappointed and will not be very happy with Ells as a result.

[Lord Snow]

The hype to trade Ells for a second rate starting pitcher is senseless. The Red Sox are in the perfect position with him. If he spends most of the year on the DL you make him a qualifying offer and either get him back for 1-year at $14M or let him walk and take the draft pick. Either way the Red Sox make out okay. If he comes out and plays like superman then you make him a market value offer. 2011 Jacoby Ellsbury is easily worth $25M annually. He has a chance to prove that was for real in 2013 just before he hits free agency.

 

People here act like Ellsbury can't possibly be re-signed because he is a Boras client, as if the Red Sox have never signed a Boras client before. That just isn't true. Whenever a player they've been high on has been a Boras client they went out and got him (with Mark Texieria being the only notable exception I can think of and they only missed out on him by something like $10M).

[Palodios]

The hype to trade Ells for a second rate starting pitcher is senseless. The Red Sox are in the perfect position with him. If he spends most of the year on the DL you make him a qualifying offer and either get him back for 1-year at $14M or let him walk and take the draft pick. Either way the Red Sox make out okay. If he comes out and plays like superman then you make him a market value offer. 2011 Jacoby Ellsbury is easily worth $25M annually. He has a chance to prove that was for real in 2013 just before he hits free agency.

 

People here act like Ellsbury can't possibly be re-signed because he is a Boras client, as if the Red Sox have never signed a Boras client before. That just isn't true. Whenever a player they've been high on has been a Boras client they went out and got him (with Mark Texieria being the only notable exception I can think of and they only missed out on him by something like $10M).

 

I've had a pile of different ideas about Ellsbury, and I do agree that holding onto him is probably the wisest move. However, if the Red Sox see 2013 as a season where they could make it to the playoffs, Ellsbury is a very big risk. He is always hurt. Always.

 

That's why the Red Sox aren't going to sign him for big money. Some desperate team will see his potential, and not the injury issues, and give him 6/100 million dollars... and he'll be hurt for three of those seasons. He is not worth 100 million. Maybe he is when healthy, but "healthy" is not a word that describes Ellsbury's baseball career.

[seabeachfred]

I was once a very big Ellsbury fan and went at it with some Jacoby hater on Dirt Dogs for months back in 2007 when he was talking up Coco Crisp, a comparison I thought was ridiculous on his part. However, I have soured deeply on Ellsbury for the reasons Palodios outlined. This guy not only gets hurt all the time but he never seems to heal. An injury and he just disappears. IMO, if he has a banner year he will get a couple of impressive offers but if he pulls a 2010 or 2012 next season he will be lucky to sign a one-year contract and hope that he stays in one piece for a change so he can cash in the following winter. Sad but very true that his glass body doesn't seem to be able to take the hard knocks of the game.

[dupree]

Ok i was just wondering what everyone has heard the past few weeks where Victorino will hit in this lineup.

 

Is Ellsbury gonna hit 1st or is Victornio going to lead off

 

I myself would like to see Ellsbury slotted in at the 3rd spot hitting between Peedy and Napoli i think that would be a better fit so he can show off his power and take a little of the pressure of getting on base and stealing 2nd may keep him off the dl a little more as well.

 

Also i think if Victorino can hit for average and steal around 30 and draw a lot of walks id just let him hit leadoff. I think the lineup will be more RHH/LHH balanced with Victorino at the top. But that is a big "IF" Vic has to hold his own to allow Farrell to move Ells down the order.

[a700hitter]

I don't think it will be easy to figure out the optimal lineup with Victorino and Ellsbury.

[dupree]

I don't think it will be easy to figure out the optimal lineup with Victorino and Ellsbury.

 

I cant agree more. With Ells and Vic both in the lineup it will be hard predict the 2013 lineup. I seen Bill James predictions for Vic i just hope he can hit a lil higher than the predictions and have a high OBP.

 

Where do you think Vic and Ells will hit a700?

[a700hitter]

I cant agree more. With Ells and Vic both in the lineup it will be hard predict the 2013 lineup. I seen Bill James predictions for Vic i just hope he can hit a lil higher than the predictions and have a high OBP.

 

Where do you think Vic and Ells will hit a700?

If Ellsbury shows that he has regained his pwer stroke in Spring Training, I think the top 4 could be Victorino, Pedroia, Ells and Ortiz. If Ells power stroke is not there, Victorino might get dropped to 6th or 7th spot.

[dupree]

If Ellsbury shows that he has regained his pwer stroke in Spring Training, I think the top 4 could be Victorino, Pedroia, Ells and Ortiz. If Ells power stroke is not there, Victorino might get dropped to 6th or 7th spot.

 

You think Ortiz will hit cleanup instead of napoli?

[BSN07]

Depends on Ellsubury. if he comes into ST hitting HR's, theoretically they could bat him 3rd and have Victorino lead off. Most likely it will be Ells-Vic-Pedroa- Ortiz as the team stands now(IMO).

[a700hitter]

You think Ortiz will hit cleanup instead of napoli?

Ortiz has to hit 3rd or 4th. Napoli might hit 4th if Victorino gets dropped tho 6th or 7th.

[BSN07]

Ortiz has to hit 3rd or 4th. Napoli might hit 4th if Victorino gets dropped tho 6th or 7th.

 

Napoli will likely hit 5th to protect Ortiz(if he even signs which I'm not sold on anymore).

[dupree]

I figured the lineup would look more like this

 

Victorino - S

Pedoria - R

Ellsbury - L

Napoli - R

Ortiz - L

Middlebrooks - R

Salty/Ross

Gomes/Kalish

Drew - L

 

I think it is more balanced with Nap hitting cleanup and Ortiz hitting 5th

Vic at the top will just have to be a wait and see

[BSN07]

I figured the lineup would look more like this

 

Victorino - S

Pedoria - R

Ellsbury - L

Napoli - R

Ortiz - L

Middlebrooks - R

Salty/Ross

Gomes/Kalish

Drew - L

 

I think it is more balanced with Nap hitting cleanup and Ortiz hitting 5th

Vic at the top will just have to be a wait and see

 

It is more balanced and offers better protection for Napoli. But I don't see the Sox taking Ortiz out of the clean up unless he's struggling.

 

Vic

Pedroia

Ells

Ortiz

Napoli

Middlebroks

Salty/Lavs/Ross

Gomes/Kalish

Drew

 

They can stick Drew in behind Middlebrooks when Kalish is in(Kalish bats 9th).

 

Most likely it will be

 

Ells

Vic

Pedroia

Ortiz

Napoli

Middlebrooks

Drew

Ross/Lavs/Salty

Kalish/Gomes

[dupree]

I wished they would get the Napoli deal done. If not all of our mock lineups are all wrong. Im not sold at all with Gomez holding down 1st. I think the deal does get done at some point but when that will be may be today, tomorrow, or maybe ST who knows.

 

I agree that Ortiz deserves the cleanup spot if hes bashing but im just not a big fan of two back to back LHH in the middle of the order. But still with the current lineup no matter how it is placed i think the defense will be ok and save some runs the Sp iss the big question mark no matter how people view the lineup. As the lineup stands it still is a very dangerous one if players just perform to career averages.

 

The bullpen with be a strength or atleast it better be. The SP has to go back to the staff of old not hope they do they have to, if not come July everyone will be waiting on football, i think if Kalish and Gomes can hit 20-25hrs and 80-90RBIs combined it could be a nice fit. Id like to see a trade for Stanton or Upton. But im willing to give Kalish a chance but if one of those players were truley available id go in at all cost especially for Stanton

[Dojji]

If they wanted to go trade for Billy Butler, I have a hard time imagining that not being worthwhile. If the Royals are at all talking trade, there's not a lot of our prospects I'd hold back.

 

If you want to look for the under the radar move that improves our roster and gets a lot of fans excited pretty quickly, Butler is that move. Just don't undermine the future of the rotation any more than we already have.

[Lucienbel]

It is more balanced and offers better protection for Napoli. But I don't see the Sox taking Ortiz out of the clean up unless he's struggling.

 

Vic

Pedroia

Ells

Ortiz

Napoli

Middlebroks

Salty/Lavs/Ross

Gomes/Kalish

Drew

 

They can stick Drew in behind Middlebrooks when Kalish is in(Kalish bats 9th).

 

Most likely it will be

 

Ells

Vic

Pedroia

Ortiz

Napoli

Middlebrooks

Drew

Ross/Lavs/Salty

Kalish/Gomes

 

I'd guess it would be the bottom one out of the gate as well, unless someone shows something really interesting in Spring Training. Pedroia has shown that he's more than capable of hitting in the three hole....granted, he's probably no ones top choice as a three hole hitter, the fact that he can means he's likely to slot in there.

 

Unless Ellsbury can show that he has some pop in his bat still I can't imagine him batting third really. He would have fit there great in 2011 though.

[User Name]

Assuming Napoli signs:

 

Ellsbury

Victorino

Pedroia

Ortiz

Napoli

WMB

Gomes/Kalish

Catcher

Drew

[BSN07]

If they wanted to go trade for Billy Butler, I have a hard time imagining that not being worthwhile. If the Royals are at all talking trade, there's not a lot of our prospects I'd hold back.

 

If you want to look for the under the radar move that improves our roster and gets a lot of fans excited pretty quickly, Butler is that move. Just don't undermine the future of the rotation any more than we already have.

 

Butler is not a bad idea, but KC seemed very apprehensive about dealing from their current MLB roster.

[User Name]

Can Butler pitch?

[BSN07]

Can Butler pitch?

 

No but the rotation is kinda full at the moment and 1B is open?

[User Name]

No but the rotation is kinda full at the moment and 1B is open?

 

My point is that if they're going to allocate resources for a trade it would be better spent on pitching since there are better stopgap options for 1B in the market. Also, Doubront really doesn't have to set a possible acquisition back.

[BSN07]

My point is that if they're going to allocate resources for a trade it would be better spent on pitching since there are better stopgap options for 1B in the market. Also, Doubront really doesn't have to set a possible acquisition back.

 

Yup that's true. I was just commenting on his overall fit at 1B. If it had gotten into what it would cost to get him I was most likely to end up in the camp of not wanting him/keeping prospects.

[jopete19]

I really like Pedroia batting third. I remember a couple of years ago they put Pedroia 3rd or 4th in the line up and feasted. If I were to decided the line up he would be batting 3rd.

[a700hitter]

I really like Pedroia batting third. I remember a couple of years ago they put Pedroia 3rd or 4th in the line up and feasted. If I were to decided the line up he would be batting 3rd.

With a couple ofspeed demons in front of him that could work very well. He wouldn't need to hit HRs to bring them home. Singles and doubles would do the trick.

[BSN07]

With a couple ofspeed demons in front of him that could work very well. He wouldn't need to hit HRs to bring them home. Singles and doubles would do the trick.

 

They way the roster is currently built having him 3rd makes a lot of sense. He's they type of bat that makes P pay for mistakes. Something that is likely to occur with Ells and Vic on the base paths.