Shane Victornio? If So Cherington Must Go!

[jung]

I don't know that people are turning on Ells. He is what he is and what is first and foremost at this point is a guy on the last year of his deal as a Boras client...as such he is not going to sign an extension. He is going to go FA and he is very likely to be offered more money than the Sox will offer. So you either get nothing for him if you wait to long or get something for him while you can. I don't think the Sox can or will build enough team to really make a run in 2013. So you get the most you can while you can.

[SoxSport]

While I'm fine with the Napoli signing I'm even less enamored with the Victorino inking that I was yesterday. Among the plethora of problems with his signing is the fact that he has become totally undisciplined at the plate, usually swinging at anything he sees. I saw him a lot on TV when the Dodgers got him last summer and he looked like he was fading badly, slow on the fast ball and very little power. Unless they are looking to trade their paper mache CF and move Shane there this signing looks like a horseshit one to me, and it will look even worse tomorrow.

 

Gives them the versatility to deal Ellsbury. Vic still a good player. Discount half year in LA.

Playing with bad hand.

[SoxSport]

I think Fenway will help Victorino a lot. He's a 2B and 3B hitter who is coming into a ballpark that inflates those figures by a large factor.

 

Excellent player in Philly. Can do everything except hit lots of HRs.

[dupree]

Excellent player in Philly. Can do everything except hit lots of HRs.

 

Well said

Thats why i would rather had Cody Ross in RF

I would give up defense to have Ross' power #s

[NativeBostonian]

Ellsbury's career -- .297/.349/.442/.791 1 gold glove

Victorino's career --275/.341/.430/.771 3 gold gloves

 

If Victorino is so terrible then so is Ellsbury. Except wait... Victorino is a better base stealer. He's a better defender. He will cost about 90 million dollars less. And he isn't a complete pussy who gets a new owie every week.

 

+1 Ellsbury needs to grow a pair. When was the last time he played a full season?

[lospunchados]

Well said

Thats why i would rather had Cody Ross in RF

I would give up defense to have Ross' power #s

 

I like ross too, but if healthy, Gomes can easily put up ross's power numbers at Fenway.

[Lord Snow]

Ben Cherington really should just wave the white flag. Trade off the young talent who can bring back prospects (Ellsbury, Pedroia, Lester, Buchholz)

 

There simply aren't the options out there to repair the rotation. The lineup is terrible. This is a 70 win team. And it needs major work to be a 90 win team. Cherington could have gambled and got there by signing Swisher, Hamilton, Haren and one of Greinke/Anibal Sanchez. He didn't. He chose to prioritize getting a back-up catcher (Ross), a platoon left-fielder (Gomes), and a back-up outfielder to start (Victorino).

 

The line-up currently looks like:

 

1. Ellsbury (CF)

2. Pedroia (2B)

3. Napoli (1B)

4. Middlebrooks (3B)

5. Ortiz (DH)

6. Gomes (LF)

7. Victorino (RF)

8. Saltalmacchia ©

9. Iglesias (SS)

 

The rotation:

 

1. Jon Lester

2. Clay Buchholz

3. John Lackey

4. Franklin Morales

5. Felix Doubront

 

Do you think that team can compete? Even if Lester & Buchholz finish 1-2 in Cy Young voting the rotation is weak. And that starting line-up is pitiful. Loaded with overpaid automatic outs.

[Spitball]

I like ross too, but if healthy, Gomes can easily put up ross's power numbers at Fenway.

 

If healthy? Gomes does not have a history of injuries, but he does have have a strong platoon differential. His at bats have not been been limited due to injury but due to an inability to hit right handed pitching.

[Spitball]

+1 Ellsbury needs to grow a pair. When was the last time he played a full season?

 

He lead the AL in plate appearances in 2011.

[dupree]

Ben Cherington really should just wave the white flag. Trade off the young talent who can bring back prospects (Ellsbury, Pedroia, Lester, Buchholz)

 

There simply aren't the options out there to repair the rotation. The lineup is terrible. This is a 70 win team. And it needs major work to be a 90 win team. Cherington could have gambled and got there by signing Swisher, Hamilton, Haren and one of Greinke/Anibal Sanchez. He didn't. He chose to prioritize getting a back-up catcher (Ross), a platoon left-fielder (Gomes), and a back-up outfielder to start (Victorino).

 

The line-up currently looks like:

 

1. Ellsbury (CF)

2. Pedroia (2B)

3. Napoli (1B)

4. Middlebrooks (3B)

5. Ortiz (DH)

6. Gomes (LF)

7. Victorino (RF)

8. Saltalmacchia ©

9. Iglesias (SS)

 

The rotation:

 

1. Jon Lester

2. Clay Buchholz

3. John Lackey

4. Franklin Morales

5. Felix Doubront

 

Do you think that team can compete? Even if Lester & Buchholz finish 1-2 in Cy Young voting the rotation is weak. And that starting line-up is pitiful. Loaded with overpaid automatic outs.

 

At current time we r a 70 win team we need help... it will take 90-95 wins to get in the postseason

we need hamilton!!! & 2 starting pitchers if not 3

[RedSoxNC84]

Ben Cherington really should just wave the white flag. Trade off the young talent who can bring back prospects (Ellsbury, Pedroia, Lester, Buchholz)

 

There simply aren't the options out there to repair the rotation. The lineup is terrible. This is a 70 win team. And it needs major work to be a 90 win team. Cherington could have gambled and got there by signing Swisher, Hamilton, Haren and one of Greinke/Anibal Sanchez. He didn't. He chose to prioritize getting a back-up catcher (Ross), a platoon left-fielder (Gomes), and a back-up outfielder to start (Victorino).

 

The line-up currently looks like:

 

1. Ellsbury (CF)

2. Pedroia (2B)

3. Napoli (1B)

4. Middlebrooks (3B)

5. Ortiz (DH)

6. Gomes (LF)

7. Victorino (RF)

8. Saltalmacchia ©

9. Iglesias (SS)

 

The rotation:

 

1. Jon Lester

2. Clay Buchholz

3. John Lackey

4. Franklin Morales

5. Felix Doubront

 

Do you think that team can compete? Even if Lester & Buchholz finish 1-2 in Cy Young voting the rotation is weak. And that starting line-up is pitiful. Loaded with overpaid automatic outs.

 

Some people seem to forget that these signings are two sided. The players also have a choice of which offers they accept... Haren CHOSE to sign with the Nats, it's not like he wasn't given an offer from the Sox.

[lospunchados]

If healthy? Gomes does not have a history of injuries, but he does have have a strong platoon differential. His at bats have not been been limited due to injury but due to an inability to hit right handed pitching.

 

Sounds the same as Ross to me. Ross career average against righties .253 obp .312

Gomes does have a lower average a pitiful .223 but his obp is virtually the same at. 307.

 

Gomes also hits a lot more homeruns than Ross. In his career Gomes has 14 more homeruns in about 260 less at bats.

 

The knock on Gomes is lots of Strikeouts ( even more than Ross who k'd way more often than the power he provided)

[lospunchados]

Ben Cherington really should just wave the white flag. Trade off the young talent who can bring back prospects (Ellsbury, Pedroia, Lester, Buchholz)

 

There simply aren't the options out there to repair the rotation. The lineup is terrible. This is a 70 win team. And it needs major work to be a 90 win team. Cherington could have gambled and got there by signing Swisher, Hamilton, Haren and one of Greinke/Anibal Sanchez. He didn't. He chose to prioritize getting a back-up catcher (Ross), a platoon left-fielder (Gomes), and a back-up outfielder to start (Victorino).

 

The line-up currently looks like:

 

1. Ellsbury (CF)

2. Pedroia (2B)

3. Napoli (1B)

4. Middlebrooks (3B)

5. Ortiz (DH)

6. Gomes (LF)

7. Victorino (RF)

8. Saltalmacchia ©

9. Iglesias (SS)

 

The rotation:

 

1. Jon Lester

2. Clay Buchholz

3. John Lackey

4. Franklin Morales

5. Felix Doubront

 

Do you think that team can compete? Even if Lester & Buchholz finish 1-2 in Cy Young voting the rotation is weak. And that starting line-up is pitiful. Loaded with overpaid automatic outs.

 

Compete, yes it can, Win the division probably not. Cherrington could have gambled? Actually no. He hit a lottery by getting rid of 200 plus million in salary last season ( thanks again Dodgers). He really believes in the farm system and is bringing in small pieces that will either prove useful in 2-3 for when the young talent comes up or get rid of them. When that happens spend some money then.

 

You really want to spend 90 million on Grienke and hope he can handle Boston and the rabid fan base and media attention. He had to leave baseball for over a year to deal with an anxiety disorder. It could work out fine, or maybe not. I mean Edgar renteria worked out great. I'm just saying it's a big risk, so it seems unlikely, might happen but seems to go against the ideas that the FO and Ownership are doing right now.

 

 

The only names on that list that you gave that would be good fits are Swisher and Sanchez, but Sanchez appears to want a long contract.

 

AS for the lineup being terrible, there are many worse out there. The line-ups we through out there last year still scored the 5th most runs in the AL, and we added speed and power. The pitching needs to step up, the lineup isn't dominant like ones we have had in the past but i think you are undervaluing it.

[Lord Snow]

Compete, yes it can, Win the division probably not. Cherrington could have gambled? Actually no. He hit a lottery by getting rid of 200 plus million in salary last season ( thanks again Dodgers). He really believes in the farm system and is bringing in small pieces that will either prove useful in 2-3 for when the young talent comes up or get rid of them. When that happens spend some money then.

 

You really want to spend 90 million on Grienke and hope he can handle Boston and the rabid fan base and media attention. He had to leave baseball for over a year to deal with an anxiety disorder. It could work out fine, or maybe not. I mean Edgar renteria worked out great. I'm just saying it's a big risk, so it seems unlikely, might happen but seems to go against the ideas that the FO and Ownership are doing right now.

 

 

The only names on that list that you gave that would be good fits are Swisher and Sanchez, but Sanchez appears to want a long contract.

 

AS for the lineup being terrible, there are many worse out there. The line-ups we through out there last year still scored the 5th most runs in the AL, and we added speed and power. The pitching needs to step up, the lineup isn't dominant like ones we have had in the past but i think you are undervaluing it.

 

The salary relief that was gained he pissed away by siging Shane Victorino, Jonny Gomes, David Ross, and Mike Napoli to massively inflated deals (okay, so Napoli was close to market value but he plays better at catcher).

 

 

The current Red Sox line-up can't compete.

 

Not signing Haren was a massive mistake by Cherington. He doesn't cost a pick. He is a risky move with high upside, yet he probably could have been had for 1-year $15M. But the Red Sox rotation is a skeleton crew so you take that sort of gamble. Instead we are giving that money to Victorino and hoping he has a career year at age 33 when the best he's ever been is mediocre.

 

Take the $35M that the Red Sox have committed to bums (less Napoli) this offseason and you could have fielded a top offense. Sure, you would have to gamble on Nick Swisher and Josh Hamitlon gelling in Boston. But that is a heck of a better strategy than Victorino, Gomes, and D Ross.

[User Name]

If you stop the angry rambling for one second and analyze the team as it stands you'll notice the following:

 

1) The offense is competent, not bad as you say. Stop the hyperbole.

 

2) The bullpen has talent, but lacks a reliable closer.

 

3) The rotation needs at least two pieces.

 

That's the reality of the Red Sox right now, and whining is not going to change it.

[User Name]

If you stop the angry rambling for one second and analyze the team as it stands you'll notice the following:

 

1) The offense is competent, not bad as you say. Stop the hyperbole.

 

2) The bullpen has talent, but lacks a reliable closer.

 

3) The rotation needs at least two pieces.

 

That's the reality of the Red Sox right now, and whining is not going to change it.

[NZSox]

If you stop the angry rambling for one second and analyze the team as it stands you'll notice the following:

 

1) The offense is competent, not bad as you say. Stop the hyperbole.

 

2) The bullpen has talent, but lacks a reliable closer.

 

3) The rotation needs at least two pieces.

 

That's the reality of the Red Sox right now, and whining is not going to change it.

 

Correct. Offense might not sight the world alight as is, but it's solid. As is, the Sox won't lose games because of a lack of offense, they'll lose because of a severe lack of pitching.

[jung]

Well so far it looks like it is half way to a typical Sox team, only short on offense and with even weaker pitching than normal. So I see the point. True there is no sense in getting angry over it.

 

Clearly it is not even half a job done at this point. If BC were to stop right here the Sox would have trouble winning as many games as they won last year. However, i have noted for a long time that this is more than a one year fix. How far will they get this year? I don't know. Maybe BC is only interested in a certain number of these one year pitching deals and Haren was just not one that he was particularly keen on.

 

Back problems are funny in that they are unpredictable. Yes Haren pitched with his so far. So what. You can sign him for one year and see him just as easily sit a big part of that one year just because he got up out of bed funny one morning and whoops....not pitching for awhile. Maybe what is notable here is that BC avoided Oswalt and his back issues as well. Could just be a red light for BC and pitchers and thats that.

 

I probably would have preferred that they avoid Napoli and found a different way to get some RH power. The Sox are going to be bumping along with a left side of the infield made up of young guys. WMB has not been an accurate thrower from 3rd. Iggy is a defensive phenom but is also young as is the guy right behind him. Anyway the Sox may just need a big net over there at 1at and Napoli is passible at 1st but not better than that. I happen to think the Sox are going to have to build around young guys coming up from the system and I am less inclined to anything that impedes progress in that direction.

 

Although I don't really expect anybody to like this idea I probably would have gambled on Melky Cabrera for cheap and dumped LaRoche into first base regardless of it costing me a draft pick. Sure there is nothing exciting about Cabrera or LaRoche but frankly there is nothing about Napoli worth getting all worked up about either.

 

Victorino just looks like a means to an end to me. Payed to much for him but I sort of have myself convinced that the only way the Sox really have to do something serious about starting pitching is to build a trade package around Ells. So maybe that is the right thing to do whether they had Napoli or Cabrera and LaRoche.

 

Starting pitching is the one piece that you just can't go and conjure up and no matter how you siice it, without starting pitching your goose is cooked. I just hope to God that this is what the Victorino deal is about.

[SoxSport]

My impression from the tweets this morning is the Red Sox are out on Hamilton, and he will go to Texas or Seattle, depending on whether Texas gets Greinke and/or Upton in this 4 way deal being discussed. Seattle has a hand in making it happen since they want Hamilton.

 

So the recent statements by Cherington about keeping Ellsbury, at least until mid-year, seem to be true.Clearly, Victorino was signed for his versatility--to play RF now and take over CF when Ells gets dealt.

 

Sounds OK, but their failure to be aggressive about Hamilton, who would plug the middle of the lineup like a giant cork in a bottle, is a sign of Cherington's blandness and Henry's unwillingness to pursue any more $20+ mil contracts--whether they are 4 yrs, 5 yrs, or 10 yrs. What we have left is the kind of nickle and diming that they did last year, which proved disastrous. On the other hand, they are filling the team with useful role players, though still overpaid, which will generate wins provided the pitching is improved significantly--especially from within.

 

I'm not optimistic about this team short range. Cherington isn't the type of GM who can turn a team around quickly, because he is not a risk-taker. And the AL East has become a beast thanks to big improvements in Baltimore and TB, and what looks like a quantum leap in Toronto. The Red Sox will be a team fighting to get out of the cellar, and hoping somebody else stumbles--like they have in recent years.

[SoxSport]

+1 Ellsbury needs to grow a pair. When was the last time he played a full season?

 

Don't think Boras would be happy with 3/39 for Ells.

[BSN07]

My impression from the tweets this morning is the Red Sox are out on Hamilton, and he will go to Texas or Seattle, depending on whether Texas gets Greinke and/or Upton in this 4 way deal being discussed. Seattle has a hand in making it happen since they want Hamilton.

 

So the recent statements by Cherington about keeping Ellsbury, at least until mid-year, seem to be true.Clearly, Victorino was signed for his versatility--to play RF now and take over CF when Ells gets dealt.

 

Sounds OK, but their failure to be aggressive about Hamilton, who would plug the middle of the lineup like a giant cork in a bottle, is a sign of Cherington's blandness and Henry's unwillingness to pursue any more $20+ mil contracts--whether they are 4 yrs, 5 yrs, or 10 yrs. What we have left is the kind of nickle and diming that they did last year, which proved disastrous. On the other hand, they are filling the team with useful role players, though still overpaid, which will generate wins provided the pitching is improved significantly--especially from within.

 

I'm not optimistic about this team short range. Cherington isn't the type of GM who can turn a team around quickly, because he is not a risk-taker. And the AL East has become a beast thanks to big improvements in Baltimore and TB, and what looks like a quantum leap in Toronto. The Red Sox will be a team fighting to get out of the cellar, and hoping somebody else stumbles--like they have in recent years.

 

Do you like going to restaurants ordering a meal then going to the kitchen when it's half done, start eating it, then complain about it being an unfinished meal?

 

We need to wait and see what the final roster looks like before judging the overall off season and state of the roster.

[a700hitter]

Do you like going to restaurants ordering a meal then going to the kitchen when it's half done, start eating it, then complain about it being an unfinished meal?r.

Keep the comments to baseball, please.

[dupree]

Even tho a lot tweets & reports are say that Hamilton will go to the Ranger or Seattle

Im hoping that Seattle does help Texas land Justin Upton in the 4 team deal

Simple fact is i think once Texas has a slugging outfielder they will be all in on Greinke

And Seattle would be the worst place for a person with Hamilton abuse background to go

it rains up there all the time talk about depression not a good combo

Plus the ballpark up there is soo big that it hurts power hitters #s

 

Hamilton in Boston would be awesome a lil flick of the wrist on a ball he is late on is off the monster his avg will be around.350 in Bean Town

[BSN07]

Keep the comments to baseball, please.

 

I'm trying to stress a point and just saying it in a different way to help get it across.

[lospunchados]

The offense isn't that bad really, I mean seriously is it worse than the lineup we threw out there 50% of the time last year? still were in the top half of AL scoring.

[a700hitter]

I'm trying to stress a point and just saying it in a different way to help get it across.

Just cranky on a late train.

[BSN07]

Just cranky on a late train.

 

Gotcha, no worries

[jung]

Well it is still a work in progress at this point. Almost not worth commenting on the lineup as it is today. I guess if nothing changed which would suggest Iggy at SS at the bottom, Ells, Pedey, WMB, Ortiz, Napoli and then maybe Salty/Lavs followed by the COF combinations then I would say it is lighter than the pre-trade offense from last year.

 

It will still suffer a good deal if Ortiz has to go to the DL. I don't think Swisher changes that either. Hamilton might be the only guy that changes that. So at least for next year it really for the most part is going to boil down to whether Ortiz is in the lineup or not.

[Lord Snow]

I don't see where the necessary pieces are going to come from to fix the team. Half the bats in the lineup are below average on day 1. The other half we are hoping will have a good year. Outside of Pedroia there is nobody I'm confident in. Ortiz should be okay but he is also 37. It wouldnt be a surprise to see some regression.

 

The starting pitching is just a total nightmare. I'm not worried about getting a closer because there is enough talent in the bullpen for somebody to step up and claim it. Junichi Tazawa was a monster, and he throws like 4 pitches. I wouldn't mind him at the back of the 'pen even though that thought hasn't been entertained much.

 

It's just frustrating because Cherington has entered "rebuilding" mode when the Sox were only a few pieces away from competing in 2013. The only thing they were going to cost was money and a 2nd round draft pick. Instead we are spending money on 'meh' players.

 

If he went out and made some good moves (e.g. Hamilton, Swisher, Johan Santana) I would be excited about this team opening day. I would feel like we had a chance to win it all if everyone stayed reasonably healthy. Instead I'm pondering how many games we are going to lose.

 

If Josh Hamilton signs for 4-years $100M or less, the Red Sox really dropped the ball by not signing him. That is a low risk high reward contract for an elite power hitter for his age 32-35 seasons.

[onlybereaved]

I don't see where the necessary pieces are going to come from to fix the team. Half the bats in the lineup are below average on day 1. The other half we are hoping will have a good year. Outside of Pedroia there is nobody I'm confident in. Ortiz should be okay but he is also 37. It wouldnt be a surprise to see some regression.

 

The starting pitching is just a total nightmare. I'm not worried about getting a closer because there is enough talent in the bullpen for somebody to step up and claim it. Junichi Tazawa was a monster, and he throws like 4 pitches. I wouldn't mind him at the back of the 'pen even though that thought hasn't been entertained much.

 

It's just frustrating because Cherington has entered "rebuilding" mode when the Sox were only a few pieces away from competing in 2013. The only thing they were going to cost was money and a 2nd round draft pick. Instead we are spending money on 'meh' players.

 

If he went out and made some good moves (e.g. Hamilton, Swisher, Johan Santana) I would be excited about this team opening day. I would feel like we had a chance to win it all if everyone stayed reasonably healthy. Instead I'm pondering how many games we are going to lose.

 

If Josh Hamilton signs for 4-years $100M or less, the Red Sox really dropped the ball by not signing him. That is a low risk high reward contract for an elite power hitter for his age 32-35 seasons.

 

So much of what you said here is wrong/weird/nonsensical.

 

You have no confidence in anyone aside from Pedroia, but at the same time the Red Sox are just a "few pieces" away from competing in 2013?

 

I would have liked to get Hamilton and Swisher, I hear you...but for all we know, those guys didn't even want to come to Boston. Keep that in mind. We may have gotten "Meh" players for reasons that don't make sense to you if you don't know the future plans/big picture, which none of us do entirely.

 

You're right about the starting pitching - We need a miracle there, and I think everyone here agrees. Red Sox are aware of it and will hopefully make some sort of moves to get something done in that department.