Shane Victornio? If So Cherington Must Go!

[RedSoxNC84]

Really, Victorino is not going to platoon...have you seen his splits even though he is a switch hitter?

 

Paying someone that much to only hit LHP is a ridiculous idea. I don't hate the signing, but I have a feeling they ignored his splits somehow.. Maybe there is just something we don't see.

[a700hitter]

Really, Victorino is not going to platoon...have you seen his splits even though he is a switch hitter?

They have paid much too much for him to be a platoon player, but his splits scream platoon player. He is awful against RHP and I don't think Fenway will help that. His splits were awful in the bandbox in Philly.

[mvp 78]

This post boils down to:

1. Swisher was a MUST (he wasn't)

2. Since Ben will not sign Swisher he must go

 

Hillarious. Pony, here's your one trick.

 

The issue is SP, not whoever is playing RF. Call Ben out for a s***** rotation, not for signing Victorino over Swisher.

[jung]

It is extremely difficult to get utilization out of multiple speed weapons in the Sox lineup. There is simply to much incentive to avoid running into outs in a park that is geared to hitting. So we saw it time and time again and have seen it throughout history with the Sox. With two speed guys, the Sox really don't get the benefit cause more often than not they are pinned to their bases not wanting to take the bat out of the bopper's hands. You can have one guy at the top of the order and another guy down in the order and sometimes make something out of that because the guy that is down in the order is not waiting for a bopper to come up. But I think the Sox have guys that are down in the lineup with speed already. Jeez though 3/37.5....OK they have money to spend but Holy Cow.

[mvp 78]

Jung, didn't Farrell already say this team would be running more? Maybe Farrell had some input on the types of players he wanted?

[Rdsxmbnt]

They have paid much too much for him to be a platoon player, but his splits scream platoon player. He is awful against RHP and I don't think Fenway will help that. His splits were awful in the bandbox in Philly.

 

You are mistakenly looking at one year splits, for his career they are a lot closer

[Emmz]

It was a comment on your absurd point regarding speed.

 

Either way, if you think they're going to pay a player 13M to platoon, you're crazy. He's going to be starting every day unless he's a bust. Are you saying their intent is to platoon him, or that they will end up platooning him?

 

This was @ jung.

[SCM33]

Michael Giardi ‏@MikeGiardi

Everyone - and I mean everyone - I've talked to abt Victorino says he's a player with declining skills. Worrisome #redsoxtalk

[BSN07]

It is extremely difficult to get utilization out of multiple speed weapons in the Sox lineup. There is simply to much incentive to avoid running into outs in a park that is geared to hitting. So we saw it time and time again and have seen it throughout history with the Sox. With two speed guys, the Sox really don't get the benefit cause more often than not they are pinned to their bases not wanting to take the bat out of the bopper's hands. You can have one guy at the top of the order and another guy down in the order and sometimes make something out of that because the guy that is down in the order is not waiting for a bopper to come up. But I think the Sox have guys that are down in the lineup with speed already. Jeez though 3/37.5....OK they have money to spend but Holy Cow.

 

Yes they now have 2 guys that can run lol

[SCM33]

Chad Finn ‏@GlobeChadFinn

Three years, $39 million? RT @nickcafardo: Cherington still hasn't ruled out Cody Ross even after pending Shane Victorino signing.

[BSN07]

If they sign Ross this team becomes a match up nightmare

[Emmz]

Yes they now have 2 guys that can run lol

 

His argument is the assumption that speed equates to running into outs.

[a700hitter]

You are mistakenly looking at one year splits, for his career they are a lot closer

I'll have to look again, but I thought his career splits against RHP are not very good. They certainly don't justify $13 million/year for 3 years. Were they just looking to give away money here? Put this in the context of what Ortiz makes, and it just looks stupid.

[SoxFanForsyth]

His career stats are decent.

 

Hes been in a decline, and Carl Crawford was a huge mistake, why would they go down that road again?

 

At 13 million per year, hes hardly a bargain.

 

My problem is the contract. If we were talking about a 1 year deal, I could care less. This is a bad contract though.

 

Victorino had a career high .847 OPS in 2011, and a 5.9 WAR. That was good for 8th best in all of baseball for any outfielder.

 

He had a down year because he posted a .278 BABIP. His BB rate and his K rate were right in line with his career norms. You gotta look at more than just his average and OPS.

 

I'm not in love with this deal at $13mm/year by any means, but lets not get carried away.

 

He can certainly bounce back to 2011 form pretty easily. And even in his down year, he still posted a 3.3 WAR.

 

He's going to be around a 3.8 to 4.0 WAR player, which is a top 25 OF, and a top 8 or 9 RF (looking at 2011 and 2012)

[BSN07]

His argument is the assumption that speed equates to running into outs.

 

By that logic being slow leads to DP's

 

That's 2 outs :shock:

[SCM33]

This post boils down to:

1. Swisher was a MUST (he wasn't)

2. Since Ben will not sign Swisher he must go

 

Hillarious. Pony, here's your one trick.

 

The issue is SP, not whoever is playing RF. Call Ben out for a s***** rotation, not for signing Victorino over Swisher.

 

Damn you!!

 

Seriously though, I would still like to have Swisher at the expense of Ellsbury.

[a700hitter]

Josh Willingham got a contract for 3/$24 last year and that was too pricy for the Sox who opted for 1 year of Cody Ross at $3 million. Now, Victorino gets $37-39 million?

[BSN07]

Josh Willingham got a contract for 3/$24 last year and that was too pricy for the Sox who opted for 1 year of Cody Ross at $3 million. Now, Victorino gets $37-39 million?

 

He got that much because he had multiple offers. The AAV got bumped up to "close" the deal.

[jung]

Victorino's splits have been going south two of his last three years. They stank in 2010 and stank again in 2012. They were decent in 2011 but still heading away from his career splits. These guys do age you know and some of them even age a little faster than you want them to.

 

Yea I think his numbers could easily end up bad enough that they platoon him out of necessity.

 

The Sox will likely try to get another OF anyway. If they are going to pay Victorino 3/37.5 I wonder what they are going to pay for the next one. I suppose I can believe that the Sox have decided they don't want Kalish in RF and would prefer him in LF. But heck, we played Cody Ross in RF last year...talk about a circus. Kalish does have a good arm again unless there is something wrong with that. By the end of last year Kalish was without question the best defensive RF the Sox had but was injured and did not look bad out there at all. Kalish did NOT look good in CF I thought.

[a700hitter]

His argument is the assumption that speed equates to running into outs.

It scares me that Farrell wants to run more. In 2 seasons in Toronto, his team ran like chickens with their heads cut off. Their running game was so amateurish that it was laughable. I do not want to see him bring that act to Boston. He did bring his idiot third base coach, so I am very worried.

[Palodios]

This topic is silly. Going into 2012, Victorino was an absolute stud. .847 OPS, .355 OBP, 17 home runs, 19 steals, 27 doubles, 16 triples, elite-elite defense in center, tons and tons of speed. He had 6 wins above replacement. That's pretty damn good.

 

Was he overpaid? Sure. But Victorino is a very very good player. At his worst he's still solid. At his best, he's a franchise player.

[BSN07]

It scares me that Farrell wants to run more. In 2 seasons in Toronto, his team ran like chickens with their heads cut off. Their running game was so amateurish that it was laughable. I do not want to see him bring that act to Boston. He did bring his idiot third base coach, so I am very worried.

 

They only have two guys that can run. I don't think we need to worry about them turning into the Angels.

 

Also the team has roughly 50M before the LT. So they can afford to bump his AAV to land him and keep it at 3 years and not 4. This is one of the positives to payroll flexibility. And if in the 3rd year they want to move him, they eat 6M and trade him.

 

That and we need to wait and look at the end result before judging the off season plan as a whole. It might look confusing now, but if you walk in to your moms kitchen about 1/4 of the way through her preparation you might have a hard time figuring out what dinner is gonna be.

[jung]

My point is not that the speedy guys will automatically run into outs. My point which I repeated was that they will not run be cut free to run regardless of their speed because the incentive is to great not to take the bat out of the bopper's hands. I also suggested that sometimes you can make it work with one guy batting in the usual 1 hole and a second that is far down in the order because that guy does not have a bopper to wait for. However I was anticipating the Sox would already have a speed guy down in the order...maybe not.

 

3/37.5 seems laughable for a guy like Victorino. Here we go makin' the market again. Probably just turned Swisher into a $16M player.

[BSN07]

This topic is silly. Going into 2012, Victorino was an absolute stud. .847 OPS, .355 OBP, 17 home runs, 19 steals, 27 doubles, 16 triples, elite-elite defense in center, tons and tons of speed. He had 6 wins above replacement. That's pretty damn good.

 

Was he overpaid? Sure. But Victorino is a very very good player. At his worst he's still solid. At his best, he's a franchise player.

 

If he had that season this year he would have gotten close to Upton money. Maybe more as he has a better track record.

[Bellhorn04]

Josh Willingham got a contract for 3/$24 last year and that was too pricy for the Sox who opted for 1 year of Cody Ross at $3 million. Now, Victorino gets $37-39 million?

 

It's insane inflationary prices this year. How the hell did BJ Upton get 75 million after posting a .298 OBP?

[jung]

There is a chance that the added benefit for Victorino is not protection for Ells leaving after 2013 but for Ells being injured again in 2013. Victorino does play CF and I have never liked the way Kalish looks in CF. Depends on the next OF the Sox hire although that guy probably just got more expensive as well.

[Palodios]

If he had that season this year he would have gotten close to Upton money. Maybe more as he has a better track record.

 

Player A's career .255/ .336/ .422 /.758

Player B's career .275/ .341/ .430/ .771

Player C's career .272/ .339/ .365/ .704

Player D's career .281/ .333/ .424/ .757

 

A= Upton. B = Victorino. C= Bourn. D=Pagan.

[BSN07]

It's insane inflationary prices this year. How the hell did BJ Upton get 75 million after posting a .298 OBP?

 

Victorino's deal looks good compared to Uptons. Albeit Upton has more upside and is younger.

[BSN07]

Player A's career .255/ .336/ .422 /.758

Player B's career .275/ .341/ .430/ .771

 

A= Bourn. B = Victorino.

 

And Bourn wants 100M

[resdubwhite]

if they're still in there talking to Ross this must mean Ells is being lined up in for a trade.