Sources say Napoli signs with Sox.

[Bellhorn04]

It doesn't change my premise or conclusion.

 

OK, let me clearly state my premise. Maybe our two premises don't conflict at all. My premise is that in the years 2003-2009, the Red Sox objective was to win 95 games. This objective assumed that 95 wins would make the playoffs. There was also an implicit belief that if the team did make the playoffs they would have a good chance at going deep in the playoffs. I think this objective was an intelligent approach and I think they succeeded at meeting it.

[jung]

Well I certainly have been critical of this organization particularly for its performance of late.... Not focusing on the Yanks or at least Theo's comments about not focusing on the Yanks has not been one of my concerns criticisms.

 

Focusing on things you cannot control simply turns you into a reactionary organization that will always be one step behind if not more than one step behind your competition.

 

In fact, Cashman's comments regarding the Crawford deal (and I don't know how much I can really trust Cashman in this regard) suggest that he detected that the Sox were already overly focused on what the Yanks may or may not do and that he suckered them into one of the worst deals in baseball history. How much Cashman really had to do with it...I am not going to claim to know. What we do know is that the Sox offered Crawford money far beyond what anybody else was going to offer and that the deal shocked baseball as an industry never mind baseball fandom. The Sox were at that level competing with themselves and you can only surmise that they saw a ghost out there and that is who they were really competing with. Maybe the ghost was Cashman and maybe it was somebody else. However it was somebody.

[seabeachfred]

If you think about, I am the one giving the FO credit. I am saying that they have finished second to the Yankees several years because they didn't aim to beat them. I am giving them credit for accomplishing their business plan. You, on the other hand, are saying that they have tried every year to beat the Yanks. If that is true, then they are bigger failures than I thought, because they have beaten the Yanks twice and won 1 division.

 

I caught that too Ted and won dered why some others had that fly right over their heads. Look, I'm elated that the Red Sox have won two World Series since I've come aboard 12 years ago, but we should all face it---the Yankees have bettered us in the regular season every year but two. To me that is not drumfire success by any means. Some of the more critical posters like you, me and a few o thers catch some flak for bringing it up, but facts are facts. We've won only one damn division title in 17 years, only two AL Pennants in 26 and that is not what I would all outstanding at all. For me two WS Titles in 12 years is not bad, but for you and others whose fandom goes back to the 70's and some to the 60's, that is not a very impressive record at all.

 

My guess is that after so many horse s*** seasons, when a WS Title came down the pike, they were so elated that they were willing to forget all those miserable seasons because they were on a high. Looking at realistically, the record is still not very impressive. I'd like to see us win four division titles, three AL Pennants and two more WS during the next decade. That would be success from where I sit.

[seabeachfred]

we would be better off giving up our first round pick, because it rarely amounts to anything.

 

Some of our picks of late have been duds Ted, but please don't give the Red Sox brass any ideas with your half baked suggestion of Carlos Lee for first base. Where have you been my friend? The guy has drastically had his power sapped by time, he can't field his position worth s*** and he has just about eaten his way into obesity. Pick someone else.

[a700hitter]

OK, let me clearly state my premise. Maybe our two premises don't conflict at all. My premise is that in the years 2003-2009, the Red Sox objective was to win 95 games. This objective assumed that 95 wins would make the playoffs. There was also an implicit belief that if the team did make the playoffs they would have a good chance at going deep in the playoffs. I think this objective was an intelligent approach and I think they succeeded at meeting it.

I was not disagreeing with this^ at all.

[jung]

Nobody has forgotten anything. The discussion has been focused on the period since 2000 in the main and in part since 1990 and with good reason. Much has changed in baseball and there were many more division wins generated from 91 or less win seasons in the earlier period. I would have to check to be sure but I think that is true for all the AL divisions be they two or three.

 

And while some appear to determine that "beat the Yankees" and having a shot to win the division mean the same thing it does not. So while some post that the discussion is about whether or not the Sox were fielding a legitimate effort to beat the Yankees, others myself including are claiming that the Sox were fielding an effort with a legitimate shot to win the division in years when they were using a least 95 regular season wins as a target. If anything that is the distinction that is being missed.

[seabeachfred]

Thanks Ted.

 

Just noticed all this discussion that BSN began.

 

Isn't worthy to discuss this.

 

Thanks for watch my back my friend.

 

Yo irotiz, when I was on this board earlier in the season it seemed you and I were simpatico on just about everything, but earlier today you gave me some flak for one of my posts, so they can't that argument against me. Don't worry, 700 Hitter and I are usually on the same page too and I don't catch flak from MVP on that at all. He gets me with the division title stuff. All in a day's work. For he most part this board is very civil.

[a700hitter]

OK, let me clearly state my premise. Maybe our two premises don't conflict at all. My premise is that in the years 2003-2009, the Red Sox objective was to win 95 games. This objective assumed that 95 wins would make the playoffs. There was also an implicit belief that if the team did make the playoffs they would have a good chance at going deep in the playoffs. I think this objective was an intelligent approach and I think they succeeded at meeting it.

http://www.talksox.com/forum/talk-sox-forum/17106-sources-say-napoli-signs-sox-12.html#post814632

 

^ I did give them credit for meeting their business plan.

[seabeachfred]

The Yankees having more money is a cop out. The Sox have plenty of resources to be excellent. In one of the two seasons that the Yankees did not win the division, the Rays beat us out for the division, so money is not the reason. The 95 win target was too low IMO. It only won 3 divisions in 13 years. They used the wrong target.

 

Of course it is too low. Hell shoot for 99---that's a good number to shoot for and it would win us the division most years if we could reach that. Unfortunately we came up 30 games short of that this past season. Maybe in a few years we might reach my magic mark.

[a700hitter]

Some of our picks of late have been duds Ted, but please don't give the Red Sox brass any ideas with your half baked suggestion of Carlos Lee for first base. Where have you been my friend? The guy has drastically had his power sapped by time, he can't field his position worth s*** and he has just about eaten his way into obesity. Pick someone else.

 

His game has fallen off quite a bit, but I thought Fenway and a 1 year contract could breathe some life into him. Hopefully, he is on an exercise program this off season, because he could belly buck with Prince Fielder.

[seabeachfred]

Well since this is just a forum discussion anyway, there might be one more perspective worth exploring.

 

We won two championships in the period from the beginning of 2000. We won 1 division championship with 96 wins. 95 wins won three other times in that period and if you recall I had mused early that once you establish 95 wins as a target, you are competing for a division championship. Asking a GM to cut it as fine as 97 vs 95 is a bit unrealistic I think and aiming for a 100 sounds like it has salary implications.

 

Are we really going to say that if we had won 2 WS and 3 division's in the period from 2000 to today we would consider that some sort of failure? I will absolutely be the first to agree that the train had gone off the rails of late with the Sox becoming the poster child for wretched excess in wasteful spending and bad decisions but I would have a hard time calling 3 divisions and 2 WS wins some sort of failure up till then. I have a hard time calling 2 WS and 2 division some sort of failure over that period.

 

I just don't think Dan The Duke gets enough credit for the 2004 WS win and I don't think the organization such as it was gets enough credit generally for the second. I have to admit, that I detected something of a "the fans got theirs now we are going to get ours" mentality in the way the team has been run since then coupled with something of a wayward owner that maybe should have centered and refocused the organization before the train went off the rails.

 

I would have wanted my organization to continue to try to fill the park by being concentrated on wins as opposed to things like 100 year anniversaries of the ballpark as a means to generate revenues. Granted the organization should have and could have done both but it didn't. As fans we were treated to endless product related marketing and product merchandizing fests while the team was falling apart.

 

But as for the success of the period since 2000 and up till the recent embarrassments, probably lucky this is not a Patriots board. We would likely all of us be laughed off the thing.

 

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that since Prune Face Henry got married in 2008 his head has been up his keester concerning the Red Sox. He's been pretty much a combination of absentee and tardy owner and it shows in the team's demise. Let's also face it, Lucchino is pretty much running things now and we should all know by now that his forte is in promotions and marketing and that his knowledge of baseball is so small that it could be placed on a safety pin and leave enough room for the Constitution of the United States.

[User Name]

I don't quite think some here understand what the sabermetric approach is our how it works. Saying that the 95 win goal and this approach are even related shows a fundamental ignorance of the approach itself.

 

And for the record, the Yankees have been using a approach to building their teams as well.

[iortiz]

Happy New Year to you and your family! Are you going to plan a trip to Fenway this coming season?

 

This season has to be the one I finally go to Boston and watch my team live for once and for all. I have a friend living over there and offered me his place to stay. I want to go to opening day but I'm not sure if I can catch a ticket by the time but I will try. If I go I let you know and if you are in Boston, will be great to drink a couple beers and talk about baseball with you my friend.

[iortiz]

Yo irotiz, when I was on this board earlier in the season it seemed you and I were simpatico on just about everything, but earlier today you gave me some flak for one of my posts, so they can't that argument against me. Don't worry, 700 Hitter and I are usually on the same page too and I don't catch flak from MVP on that at all. He gets me with the division title stuff. All in a day's work. For he most part this board is very civil.

 

Hey... how are you Fred? Happy new year!

 

Yup, I like this board too Fred.

[Station 13]

if the issue isn't going to resolved, call the Twins about Morneau. He is due 14M and the Red Sox need to trade away some of its excess relievers who are out of options and a minor prospect like Jacobs.

 

I remember the Red Sox offer to eat the entire Mauer 170M contract, but was told they won't trade him. Morneau has 1 year on the contract, which may be more feasible to deal for. Just get something done so Mauo Gomez isn't throwing hand grenades opening day from 1B.

[BSN07]

if the issue isn't going to resolved, call the Twins about Morneau. He is due 14M and the Red Sox need to trade away some of its excess relievers who are out of options and a minor prospect like Jacobs.

 

I remember the Red Sox offer to eat the entire Mauer 170M contract, but was told they won't trade him. Morneau has 1 year on the contract, which may be more feasible to deal for. Just get something done so Mauo Gomez isn't throwing hand grenades opening day from 1B.

 

I've been thinking Morneau could be a good fit and doesn't seem impossible to trade for.

[redsoxfan3]

I've been thinking Morneau could be a good fit and doesn't seem impossible to trade for.

 

Morneau is not a bad option. If Napoli falls through and LaRoche signs in D.C., then I all for trading for Morneau over having Mauro Gomez take over at 1B.

[Behindenemylines]

If the Napoli signing craps out, and it takes another month for this to happen then you could be going into spring training with M Gomez as your first baseman. That would be another huge question that the Sox would have. Gomez is a adventure at 1B, and how would he hit in Boston over a full season? He was signed by the Sox as a depth player and I'm not sold on him as the every day 1B.

[Bellhorn04]

If the Napoli signing craps out, and it takes another month for this to happen then you could be going into spring training with M Gomez as your first baseman. That would be another huge question that the Sox would have. Gomez is a adventure at 1B, and how would he hit in Boston over a full season? He was signed by the Sox as a depth player and I'm not sold on him as the every day 1B.

 

Gomez is not going to happen. That would be a total embarrassment and a nullification of the offseason efforts to patch together a competitive team.

[Behindenemylines]

Gomez is not going to happen. That would be a total embarrassment and a nullification of the offseason efforts to patch together a competitive team.

 

He currently is the only 1B on the 40 man roster. I said it before and I'll say it again Gomez is a depth player at AAA who can fill in for injuries. This Napoli thing is puzzling, and the Sox don't want to give up the draft pick by signing LaRoche. I hope the 2013 1B is not on the roster right now.

[jacksonianmarch]

The current pick for the sox would be the #44 pick they'd have to give up, a pick worth over $1 mil in slot money. Losing that slot money and that pick would be devastating for what should be a productive draft for them. I expect the sox to draft and sign a college player in the first round, sign them well under slot then parse out the remaining cash all through the draft to bring in a deep haul of prospects. Losing that second rounder would nullify that effort

[seabeachfred]

Hey... how are you Fred? Happy new year!

 

Yup, I like this board too Fred.

 

And a very Happy New Year to you my friend. Now you must come north of the border from down Mexico way and this season YOU MUST SEE THE RED SOX PLAY AT FENWAY PARK.

 

I still get a few snickers from friends when I tell them the event that made me a Red Sox fan back in the summer of 2010 was Fenway Park, the fans and atmosphere around the ball park. I know there are those who complain about the narrowness of the seats and how we need a new ballpark. Bull@@it IMO. Fenway Park is a gem and I don't ever want to see them tear it down. I saw this painting by the late Thomas Kinkade of Fenway Park and when I saw the 2,700 price I nearly gagged, but then said Hell with it!!!!!! I wanted that painting. The people there gave me a $600.00 discount and that was my Christmas present to myself a few years ago. It hangs right over my living room couch---and keep in mind that my wife roots for the Angels. But she knows my passion for the Red Sox.

[seabeachfred]

Gomez is not going to happen. That would be a total embarrassment and a nullification of the offseason efforts to patch together a competitive team.

 

You see it, RSF3 sees it, Enemy Lines see it, I see it, but we actually have posters here who think Gomez would be fine for us next season at first base. That is insane. You said it best....THAT WOULD BE A TOTAL EMBARRASSMENT AND NULLIFICATION OF THE OFF SEASON EFFORTS TO PATCH TOGETHER A COMPETITIVE TEAM. Absolutely right on Bellhorn!!!!!!

[a700hitter]

And a very Happy New Year to you my friend. Now you must come north of the border from down Mexico way and this season YOU MUST SEE THE RED SOX PLAY AT FENWAY PARK.

 

I still get a few snickers from friends when I tell them the event that made me a Red Sox fan back in the summer of 2010 was Fenway Park, the fans and atmosphere around the ball park. I know there are those who complain about the narrowness of the seats and how we need a new ballpark. Bull@@it IMO. Fenway Park is a gem and I don't ever want to see them tear it down. I saw this painting by the late Thomas Kinkade of Fenway Park and when I saw the 2,700 price I nearly gagged, but then said Hell with it!!!!!! I wanted that painting. The people there gave me a $600.00 discount and that was my Christmas present to myself a few years ago. It hangs right over my living room couch---and keep in mind that my wife roots for the Angels. But she knows my passion for the Red Sox.

There is a painter who will paint rooms in your house or outside structures to look like Fenway. I saw some of the work in a magazine. It looked awesome. I'd like to have a den just for myself (some would call it a "man cave") painted to look like the left field wall. Unfortunately, we only have one den, and until now, my wife has had other decorating ideas.

[iortiz]

And a very Happy New Year to you my friend. Now you must come north of the border from down Mexico way and this season YOU MUST SEE THE RED SOX PLAY AT FENWAY PARK.

 

I still get a few snickers from friends when I tell them the event that made me a Red Sox fan back in the summer of 2010 was Fenway Park, the fans and atmosphere around the ball park. I know there are those who complain about the narrowness of the seats and how we need a new ballpark. Bull@@it IMO. Fenway Park is a gem and I don't ever want to see them tear it down. I saw this painting by the late Thomas Kinkade of Fenway Park and when I saw the 2,700 price I nearly gagged, but then said Hell with it!!!!!! I wanted that painting. The people there gave me a $600.00 discount and that was my Christmas present to myself a few years ago. It hangs right over my living room couch---and keep in mind that my wife roots for the Angels. But she knows my passion for the Red Sox.

That painting must be a great one Fred, congrats!

 

Yeah! This year must be the one I finally go to Boston and watch my team play live. I wanted to go last year in August/September but you know how we ended up so I thought it didn't worth to spend that money and see a death horse, anyway... hopefully this year at least we are not a blank check like the last one.

[jung]

Surely the lost pick must be what is preventing the Sox from going after Laroche. They do not seem disposed to caving on the Napoli language yet have not gone after Larocke. Just about the only things that make sense given that course of action is that they simply are not willing to sign a contract with Napoli without what they consider adequate protection or with shorter term yet are adamant that they not give up the pick, at least not for a Laroche.

[Bellhorn04]

Surely to God they're not going to let this drag on much longer.

[seabeachfred]

There is a painter who will paint rooms in your house or outside structures to look like Fenway. I saw some of the work in a magazine. It looked awesome. I'd like to have a den just for myself (some would call it a "man cave") painted to look like the left field wall. Unfortunately, we only have one den, and until now, my wife has had other decorating ideas.

 

As I've mentioned a few times (maybe too many for a couple of our compadres on this board) I have a Red Sox baseball room that I converted from my team room of the players I once coached. If you ever come to California I would be delighted to show it to you, or anyone else who comes out here for a visit or a vacation. MVP said he was coming out last summer but we never touched base on it. One wall is all about 2004, another is 2007, and I have pictures t aken with newly found friends I've made on my trips to Boston, not to mention some with Red Sox players like Youk, Timlin, Papelbon, Cora, Loretta, Masterson and Kotsay. If you could get the wife to give the ok I say go for it Ted.

[seabeachfred]

That painting must be a great one Fred, congrats!

 

Yeah! This year must be the one I finally go to Boston and watch my team play live. I wanted to go last year in August/September but you know how we ended up so I thought it didn't worth to spend that money and see a death horse, anyway... hopefully this year at least we are not a blank check like the last one.

 

I didn't get to Fenway this past season and instead took in a three game series between the Red Sox and Cubs in Chicago in June. Like you I was planning a September trip but when we are talking about between $2,500 and $3,000 to see a pig team play, well the better part of valor is to use what brains I have and just kiss it off---which I did. Hope the team is better when you go iortiz.

[Palodios]

You see it, RSF3 sees it, Enemy Lines see it, I see it, but we actually have posters here who think Gomez would be fine for us next season at first base. That is insane. You said it best....THAT WOULD BE A TOTAL EMBARRASSMENT AND NULLIFICATION OF THE OFF SEASON EFFORTS TO PATCH TOGETHER A COMPETITIVE TEAM. Absolutely right on Bellhorn!!!!!!

 

For me it depends on where the money goes. If they signed someone like Berkman/Carlos Lee for first base, and then use the rest of the money to get a pitcher like Marcum, they'll have added more financial flexibility and helped out their rotation as well.