Red Sox 2012/2013 Offseason Thread

[a700hitter]

I am curious. Did anyone buy any tickets today?

 

Edit: the GamePax are such ********. 4 of the 12 GamePax have an Astro game. f*** them.

[jung]

There is a big hole between looking like last, acting like last and giving the fans a shot at a WC (useless as it may be). I don't think the Sox have to make a run at the division. They just have to give the fans something that most baseball fans have to live on year in and year out. Couple that with a chance to glimpse what the near term future might look like in the form of the guys that are ready to play up here this year and i suspect the Sox will pull decent attendance out of that.

 

I agree that "saying the words" was a mistake on Theo's part because of the implications. However if the Sox upper management and baseball ops guys knew when to talk, when to keep their mouths shut, knew what to say when they did open their mouths and stayed on point as group instead of contradicting each other, they would save themselves a world of trouble. They have not managed to get much of that right all the way up to their erstwhile boss for a long time now.

 

I do credit LL for coming out and saying that they have not been aggressive enough with their prospects because that was an admission that was accurate for one, honest for another and not covering in the drippy, soupy sentimentalism that so often permeates Sox communications to the fan base.

[Bellhorn04]

Well when we look back on this offseason we might be saying 'well played, they were smart and patient'. Or we might be saying 'holy s***, those *******s totally f***ed up again'. It feels like it could go either way.

[example1]

The other possibility is that they have just done a s***** job. Blaming the fans is ridiculous. They don't run the team ans they have no say.

 

And yet just about every post here is saying that if they don't do something that is aesthetically pleasing to the fans, the fans will lose interest. Fans being interested and doing the right thing for wins are not necessarily the same thing.

[a700hitter]

Well when we look back on this offseason we might be saying 'well played, they were smart and patient'. Or we might be saying 'holy s***, those *******s totally f***ed up again'. It feels like it could go either way.

Bells, they'd have to make some moves to say "well played". Doing nothing isn't building for today or the future. It would just be a throw away season, not a bridge season.

[a700hitter]

And yet just about every post here is saying that if they don't do something that is aesthetically pleasing to the fans, the fans will lose interest. Fans being interested and doing the right thing for wins are not necessarily the same thing.

 

Theo's f***ups started when the Red Sox were the hottest ticket in town. Putting fannies in the seats was not a worry. They had plenty of goodwill to burn. The sell-out streak lasted for 3 years after they stopped making the playoffs. They just f***ed up for many years running. It had nothing to do with the fans. The fans and the Red Sox marketing department are the only good things that the team has had going for it in the last 4 years.

 

Edit: It took a year of complete futility and fail following the worst September collapse in history for fans to lose interest. Last year should have never happened. It was just a horrible job. It took a lot to kill interest in the team.

[a700hitter]

Red Sox announce deal with Jonny Gomes

December 1, 2012 09:45 AM

 

By Peter Abraham, Globe Staff

 

The Red Sox agreed on a two-year, $10 million deal with outfielder Jonny Gomes on Nov. 21. They announced it on Saturday, having cleared room on the 40-man roster.

 

Ben Cherington will be speaking to the media at Fenway Park this morning and Gomes will be available later in the day. So check back later.

That took forever. Cherries says that he will be playing a lot. It sounds like more than a platoon arrangement.

[Bellhorn04]

It's December 1, 2012, and Jonny Gomes' $10 million contract is the leader in the clubhouse for signings of the Cherington Era.

[Behindenemylines]

Sox still have major holes in several places (SP, 1B, Of, and SS if you feel Iglesias isn't ready) and the moves that have been made or are being rumored don't put the Sox in a position to make a run at the playoffs. I think if the FO wants to go with the youth and needs 2013 to be a bridge year then come out and say that. Its the saying we are going to spend for 2013 and then not seeing any action is what drives Sox fans crazy. It doesn't help that you see a lot of the other teams making moves to improve themselves.

[MJantomaso]

Sign Brian Wilson!

[jung]

That is a good point regarding comments by Sox management that they would have one of the "highest payrolls in baseball" for the 2013 season. Maybe in fact that was the Sox effort at priming the ticket booth activity. They could always fall back to the ever popular, "we tried but XYZ negotiations spiraled out of control due to the stupidity of other teams in their willingness to overpay."

 

As for what they actually do...we have already seen the result when the Sox spend tremendous amounts of money...stupidly. In fact while I commended LL for his comment about not being aggressive enough with prospects....his comment about the payroll was not very bright. I think it would have made more sense for him to have said that the Sox were "going to field a fun to watch, competitive team for 2013, one that peaks fan interest and inspires fan empathy and support." That is really what we want.

 

I happen to think that putting that sort of team on the field for 2013 while planning on less hope and more substance for 2014 is the right thing for them to do. If the Sox start from the premise that they have to spend X amount of $$ or the fan base will be uninspired, they are as likely to screw up as they have in the past. If they take the approach that building an effort that at least will yield a shot at a WC and will result in an interesting, fun and inspirational team, then I think their perspective will be correct and their result will likely be better.

[Behindenemylines]

That is a good point regarding comments by Sox management that they would have one of the "highest payrolls in baseball" for the 2013 season. Maybe in fact that was the Sox effort at priming the ticket booth activity. They could always fall back to the ever popular, "we tried but XYZ negotiations spiraled out of control due to the stupidity of other teams in their willingness to overpay."

 

As for what they actually do...we have already seen the result when the Sox spend tremendous amounts of money...stupidly. In fact while I commended LL for his comment about not being aggressive enough with prospects....his comment about the payroll was not very bright. I think it would have made more sense for him to have said that the Sox were "going to field a fun to watch, competitive team for 2013, one that peaks fan interest and inspires fan empathy and support." That is really what we want.

 

I happen to think that putting that sort of team on the field for 2013 while planning on less hope and more substance for 2014 is the right thing for them to do. If the Sox start from the premise that they have to spend X amount of $$ or the fan base will be uninspired, they are as likely to screw up as they have in the past. If they take the approach that building an effort that at least will yield a shot at a WC and will result in an interesting, fun and inspirational team, then I think their perspective will be correct and their result will likely be better.

 

I think if the Sox make 2013 a bridge year then go with as many young players as possible and mix in players that will make the 2013 version a fun team to watch with a eye towards 2014. If they did that most Sox fans could live with that. Don't tell us that you are going to spend big in 2013 and go have way with everything and field a team that gives no hope for 2014.

[SoxSport]

There better be some major moves at the baseball meetings. The citizens are getting restless hearing about Johnny Gomes.

[SoxSport]

Hearing some noise via KC tweets that the Lester-Myers deal could come off. Farrell hasn't denied it, and Cherington said they are open to all options to improve the team long range. So there you have it. We'll see.

[BSN07]

That is a good point regarding comments by Sox management that they would have one of the "highest payrolls in baseball" for the 2013 season. Maybe in fact that was the Sox effort at priming the ticket booth activity. They could always fall back to the ever popular, "we tried but XYZ negotiations spiraled out of control due to the stupidity of other teams in their willingness to overpay."

 

As for what they actually do...we have already seen the result when the Sox spend tremendous amounts of money...stupidly. In fact while I commended LL for his comment about not being aggressive enough with prospects....his comment about the payroll was not very bright. I think it would have made more sense for him to have said that the Sox were "going to field a fun to watch, competitive team for 2013, one that peaks fan interest and inspires fan empathy and support." That is really what we want.

 

I happen to think that putting that sort of team on the field for 2013 while planning on less hope and more substance for 2014 is the right thing for them to do. If the Sox start from the premise that they have to spend X amount of $$ or the fan base will be uninspired, they are as likely to screw up as they have in the past. If they take the approach that building an effort that at least will yield a shot at a WC and will result in an interesting, fun and inspirational team, then I think their perspective will be correct and their result will likely be better.

 

I'd like to see a list of projected payrolls for 2013. I'm betting if the Sox spend 120-130M next season in payroll, it might still be top 10 in the league.

[jung]

I have not looked but a number of the payrolls are at, just under or just over $100m as I recall. So I would bet that $120m is top 10. Although it is all relative...that sort of comment would suggest top 5. Probably needs to be up around $140-$150 to be top 5.

[User Name]

I'd like to see a list of projected payrolls for 2013. I'm betting if the Sox spend 120-130M next season in payroll, it might still be top 10 in the league.

 

Not can....will. Last year, only nine teams even broke the 100 mill mark. Salaries aren't going to inflate enough for mid-market teams this year to bridge the gap. The Sox at $120 mill in payroll for 2013 would be closer to top-5 than top-10.

[Palodios]

I really think this is hindsight Palodios, as much as I respect your position. Beltre's previous 3059 PAs in Seattle led to a .759 OPS and a 101 OPS+. In no season did he have an OBP above .330. Then in a contract season in Boston he put up a .919 OPS, his best since his previous contract season in LA. It was highly suspicious and unreliable, at least as far as I'm concerned.

 

Otherwise your point makes sense though.

 

As for the draft pick discussion, there are always players who are selected later in the draft who do well. You selected a nice list. I noticed you didn't list all the guys who go in the top 10 picks who go on to be the type of players we are talking about. Selecting early in the draft logically gives you a larger universe of players to draft from. Weaver was selected 12th, for instance, which means that teams 13 and on would not have had a chance to draft him.

 

To put it another way, all things being equal (here, that means literally "without any noticable difference in the seasons that lead up to having one draft slot or another") a team would always prefer to have the first pick. Nobody would say the Sox should tank their season, but at some point if they are going to have an unsuccessful campaign it becomes preferable (to me at least) for them to start moving up in the draft order (like they did in 2012).

 

What the team does with the draft pick is a different matter, which is why all those guys were still available at those spots.

 

I'm sure plenty of people hate the idea of the Sox not winning every game. I'm just saying what I think about the value of getting a tremendous player through the draft and how their odds increase as their slot increases.

 

Finally, add in the fact that teams with unprotected picks can lose their first round pick if they dare to sign a protected FA, and finishing in the middle sucks even more. At the very least, if the Sox are going to be bad they benefit by having a protected pick.

 

Okay, Beltre may have been a stretch-- I'm also forgetting that they picked up Swihart and Bradley in that phenomenal draft class-- but Sabathia/Holliday were as much of a sure thing as you'll find. They're very rare players who find free agency, but those are the players you need to break the bank for, not the kind of players the Red Sox have in the past.

 

I definitely understand that there is a long list of very good players who come from the lower digits. But looking at the drafts, I don't see a big difference in the number of all-stars from #6-10 and #10-15 and so on. The only way for the Red Sox to really make a difference in the draft is to be a bottom 5, which I think would destroy the fanbase, significantly decrease revenue streams, forcing lower player payroll and be more trouble than it is worth. They can get a superstar with this #7 pick-- but bombing the next few seasons?

[example1]

I just don't think the fan base is so easily destroyed. Maybe I'm wrong. Teams rise and fall and so do fan bases. Maybe I'm giving Sox fans too much credit, but I think they would be back if the team were really exciting in 2014 or 2015 even if they totally suck in 2013.

[Palodios]

I am curious. Did anyone buy any tickets today?

 

Edit: the GamePax are such ********. 4 of the 12 GamePax have an Astro game. f*** them.

 

I've purchased quite a few the last few years, but I'm planning on just getting them secondhand in 2013. Why pay more when you can buy them from secondhand dealers for half the price?

[seabeachfred]

Sometimes what benefits fan re-engagement after a few poor seasons is having someone who is a near-generational talent. Fans will rally around a star player who they really like. I think about how Justin Verlander is the center of the Tigers universe, even with Cabrera and Fielder there now. Evan Longoria is that guy in Tampa. Washington has a number of good players but that will be Bryce Harper's and Steven Strasburg's team; Anaheim has Pujols but Trout might be the guy the fans come to like the most.

 

Where does that leave the Red Sox? Needing to find that next guy. I would propose two things:

 

1) moves like the Lester for Myers move should be pursued aggressively. Who knows if Myers is that guy, but his numbers suggest he's got a good chance to be at least a very good MLB regular, if not a perennial all-star. They need that lottery ticket more than they need a #2 starter moving forward.

 

2) Amass top draft picks. As far as I'm concerned, if they're going to be bad in 2013 they might as well be really bad. The most obvious generational talent usually lives at the top of the draft, but it's hard to get there. The Sox being an 80 win team for 3-4 years won't help them as much as being a 69 win team for another season.

 

All that said, there might be ways to make this team actually competitive this year, in which case they should do that. If Anibel Sanchez is willing to sign a reasonable deal to come to Boston, Josh Hamilton will sign a 5 year deal, and they can trade some players for future stars (or future stars for necessary pieces now, i.e., pitching) then they should do that. I just don't know that it is likely.

 

I'm prefacing all of my comments above from the fact that I, like many Red Sox fans, am not as inve$ted in their being interested year in and year out. For those fans I do sympathize. I love the Red Sox and spend a good portion of my summer watching them... from my house. In Oregon. Those of you who invest a significant amount of time and money in going to games, having to pay for parking, sitting through Sox events (Christmas at Fenway), etc., will experience a fair amount of disconnect between what is being sold and what the team is in reality, and that's not easy at all. I would completely understand you wanting something great now and not tolerating another terrible season.

 

It is all in the eye of the beholder, I suppose.

 

Hey my friend, I don't know what you're seeing from your eye living in Oregon but I find it strange we're not seeing the same thing with me in California. I don't give a s*** where you live because in my opinion if you got the MLB package and can see the Red Sox on TV every game, or watch them on ESPN when they are on there, well, speaking only for myself and a few of my fellow Red Sox friends in my neighborhood---BROTHER WE ARE INVESTED IN THE TEAM EVERY FRIGGIN GAME. I don't have to live in Boston to walk the floors at night after our team suffers another loss. OK, maybe you've rooted for the team for so long that you are imune to the trials and travails of the team; I don't know how old you are so this is just a guess. There are some of us who just literally get sick when the team loses.

 

Let's see what happens at the winter meetings EX1. Maybe some good news for a change will buoy all of us up a little.

[Palodios]

I just don't think the fan base is so easily destroyed. Maybe I'm wrong. Teams rise and fall and so do fan bases. Maybe I'm giving Sox fans too much credit, but I think they would be back if the team were really exciting in 2014 or 2015 even if they totally suck in 2013.

 

With all the championships in the last decade, there is a mandate to win. The losers are discarded for the current winner. The core fans are still around, but people don't want to pay $100 a ticket for the Sox anymore.

[jung]

And there it is.......very true.....the Sox have boxed themselves into a corner. No tickie...no shirtie

 

The "plan" is built around a smallish ballpark with the brass adding seating a little at a time as need be but never enough to prevent them from putting on the squeeze and charging ever high ticket prices.

 

But the number of people willing to pay such prices and even companies looking to impress their clientele starts to go the wrong way unless the Sox are playing exciting, competitive ball.....or.....unless they have a few ballplayers of interest that together form the core of an interesting team with an eye toward the immediate future as in next year.

[SoxSport]

And there it is.......very true.....the Sox have boxed themselves into a corner. No tickie...no shirtie

 

The "plan" is built around a smallish ballpark with the brass adding seating a little at a time as need be but never enough to prevent them from putting on the squeeze and charging ever high ticket prices.

 

But the number of people willing to pay such prices and even companies looking to impress their clientele starts to go the wrong way unless the Sox are playing exciting, competitive ball.....or.....unless they have a few ballplayers of interest that together form the core of an interesting team with an eye toward the immediate future as in next year.

 

Which means they better put humpty-dumpty back together again fast. They don't have a lot of time.

There is still some doubt that Cherington is the guy to do it. But he is getting help, obviously, from Lucchino/Henry and James.

[a700hitter]

Theo's f***ups started when the Red Sox were the hottest ticket in town. Putting fannies in the seats was not a worry. They had plenty of goodwill to burn. The sell-out streak lasted for 3 years after they stopped making the playoffs. They just f***ed up for many years running. It had nothing to do with the fans. The fans and the Red Sox marketing department are the only good things that the team has had going for it in the last 4 years.

 

Edit: It took a year of complete futility and fail following the worst September collapse in history for fans to lose interest. Last year should have never happened. It was just a horrible job. It took a lot to kill interest in the team.

 

I've purchased quite a few the last few years, but I'm planning on just getting them secondhand in 2013. Why pay more when you can buy them from secondhand dealers for half the price?

I know that you go to several games each season, and my recollection is that you would purchase tickets when they were first available for sale as I did. I'd be logged onto 3 different laptops at 10 am on the first day of sales hoping to get out of the virtual waiting room. This year I too will buy on the secondary market. I wonder how the renewals of the season ticket subscriptions went this offseason.

[a700hitter]

. The only way for the Red Sox to really make a difference in the draft is to be a bottom 5, which I think would destroy the fanbase, significantly decrease revenue streams, forcing lower player payroll and be more trouble than it is worth. They can get a superstar with this #7 pick-- but bombing the next few seasons?

I think it would be an extremely foolish move for the FO to accept another last place 90+ loss season to get better draft position. So, much work goes into establishing a strong valuable franchise that it would be pure folly to willingly send out an inferior product. The current management set the bar very high on all fronts. They have the highest ticket prices in baseball plus they have Numerous other lucrative income streams. The fuel for this engine is fan interest. This is not Minnesota that has specials for 4 tickets, 4 hot dogs, 4 beers and parking for $40. As you said, people are not going to spend $200+ to go to Fenway to see a 90 + loss team again. They just will not. I just can't see any business willingly damaging it's franchise and watching its revenue streams take big hits for a couple of years in hopes that they discover the next great generational talent. That's just not reasonable. Do you know how long it will take them to recoup the lost revenue. Years.

[a700hitter]

This statement from Cherington today is distressing. I think he is missing the boat. IMO, the biggest need for this team for 2 seasons has been starting pitching. I am not in agreement with him if he thinks we can roll out the same guys and the pitching will improve.

The rotation: “Generally it needs to improve. The performance of the rotation wasn’t good enough last year. I think that [improvement] will mostly come from the guys that already here. That’s going to make a bigger difference than anyone else we add, likely.”

[jung]

The guys we can lay our hands on this off season would be guys that could fit somewhere in the middle of the rotation if they succeed. So in that sense I guess I would agree the BC.

 

The only thing I can pick out of that which might be revealing is that it sounds to me like Lester is staying. Frankly IMO they can't move Lester for some bat prospect regardless of what he might someday be.

 

I do think they are gong to be forced into Hamilton though. They need to field an interesting team with an eye to competing for the division in 2014 and Hamilton would give them one of the elements that a team seemingly must have these days....two big bats anchoring the middle of the lineup. If they let the kids play this year, sign LaRoche for 1st, take Hamilton and grab up some of the short contract guys that might come in and improve the pitching, they end up with an interesting team worth watching in 2013 and then they end up with LaRoche, Hamilton, Ortiz, WMB, Pedey the guys that work out this year, plus the arriving killer B's for 2014. That also gives them all of this year and the 2013-2014 off season to fix the starting pitching.

 

It would seem to me about the only way the Sox can continue to make the formula that they have used to achieve financial success through 2013 and 2014. Even with Hamilton and LaRoche and Ells for one more year the starting pitching is so uninspiring at this point that I still think they are likely competing for a WC and not the division just yet. However they surely should be competing for the division again in 2014.

[DocHolliday]

I just don't think the fan base is so easily destroyed. Maybe I'm wrong. Teams rise and fall and so do fan bases. Maybe I'm giving Sox fans too much credit, but I think they would be back if the team were really exciting in 2014 or 2015 even if they totally suck in 2013.

 

Certainly the core group of fans will stick with the team through the good and bad times.

 

To use the majority of posters on this site as an example, we continue to have hope that the team will rebound and return to being a competitive team again. The mere fact that we are all still rooting for them after what we've had to witness the past 3 years, culminating with the calendar year of September 2011-2012, shows that the core fans will stick with the team through anything. Personally, it makes me feel even more proud of myself, knowing that I was able to stand by the team through the worst of times and it will make me be even more proud when they do get back to being competitive year in and year out.

 

That being said, I feel many of us are growing restless with the lack of progress that's been made to improve the team from our vantage point. It goes without saying that the off the field antics had to be put to rest, which I think most of us would agree that they have. But this organization needs to act on their words of promises of improving the team for 2013 and beyond in some timely fashion.

 

Hopefully next week we will begin to see some movement in the right direction.

[RedSoxNC84]

The Mets are looking for catching help, and are talking about shopping R.A. Dickey, any thoughts?