Red Sox 2012/2013 Offseason Thread

[seabeachfred]

Give me an example of a prospect who kicked ass in Pawtucket and got stuck there.

 

How about if I giuve you one Bell. Kevin Youkilis, circa 2005.....remember?????? That year Kevin Millar was miserable most of the season from May on and only by complaining and bitching and moaning did the meely mouth Francona placate him and keep sending him out to first base even though when he gave John Olerud a chance he outdid Millar six ways from Sunday. In the meantime, Youkilis was constantly riding the Pawtucket shuttle, up and down, up and down like a pogo stick. Brought up when Bill Mueller got hurt, he was sent down again (twice) even though he has become fairly proficient to play first base and give us some hitting we weren't getting from Millar. Youk is solidly over 300 the three different times he was sent to Pawtucket and while not "stuck" there was sent packing to the Rhode Island town more than he deserved to be while a "salary" kept a position he definitely did not deserve.

[SouthieFanatic]

Give me an example of a prospect who kicked ass in Pawtucket and got stuck there.

 

Youkilis took longer than he needed down there. He was ready a good year before they brought him up. So maybe not "stuck" but certainly "delayed" alot of times. The next guy who's gonna be delayed longer than he needs to be is Barnes in AA, guarantee it. Jackie Bradley could start for some Major leage teams right now. So this is another case of being "delayed". Sure having Victorino is nice, but are they that afraid to bring in a kid? I mean cmon

[jacksonianmarch]

Bradley needs at least another half season in the minors. Blowing through the minors in his first full yr was a nice accomplishment, but the league now has a shot to adjust to him and they will. It's better he learn to adjust back while in the minors than after an unsuccessful stint in the bigs performed prematurely

[Bellhorn04]

How about if I giuve you one Bell. Kevin Youkilis, circa 2005.....remember?????? That year Kevin Millar was miserable most of the season from May on and only by complaining and bitching and moaning did the meely mouth Francona placate him and keep sending him out to first base even though when he gave John Olerud a chance he outdid Millar six ways from Sunday. In the meantime, Youkilis was constantly riding the Pawtucket shuttle, up and down, up and down like a pogo stick. Brought up when Bill Mueller got hurt, he was sent down again (twice) even though he has become fairly proficient to play first base and give us some hitting we weren't getting from Millar. Youk is solidly over 300 the three different times he was sent to Pawtucket and while not "stuck" there was sent packing to the Rhode Island town more than he deserved to be while a "salary" kept a position he definitely did not deserve.

 

Yes, Youkilis is the one guy I agree on. But that was back in 2005.

[SoxSport]

Youkilis took longer than he needed down there. He was ready a good year before they brought him up. So maybe not "stuck" but certainly "delayed" alot of times. The next guy who's gonna be delayed longer than he needs to be is Barnes in AA, guarantee it. Jackie Bradley could start for some Major leage teams right now. So this is another case of being "delayed". Sure having Victorino is nice, but are they that afraid to bring in a kid? I mean cmon

 

They are accustomed to being a $160-170 million team. That means prospects get blocked unless there are injuries. Middlebrooks lucked out last year. Kalish got blocked a couple years ago by Drew, and wrecked his career getting hurt in Pawtucket.

[SoxSport]

Regarding options, etc, there definitely is a pecking order. It doesn't seem to depend much on output, but more on how many options you have left and how much salary you are trying to replace. Veterans making salary have preference to guys without options who have preference to guys with options. That's the pecking order.The guys with options get demoted first.

[Spitball]

I was a big fan of the Sox signing Jair Jurrgens, but three weeks after the announcement of signing a major league deal with the Orioles, he signed a minor league deal with an invite to spring training for lower than the 1.5 million guarantee. Guess his right knee is still an issue.

 

The biggest red flag has to be his K-rate being 3.5 per 9. That screams to stay far, far away.

[jung]

Staggering dif between Jurrgens NL K/9 and his AL K/9. In truth his K/9 is not much to write home about in any year, either league. I am still anxious to see how the junk-ballers do in the AL East this year.

[seabeachfred]

Regarding options, etc, there definitely is a pecking order. It doesn't seem to depend much on output, but more on how many options you have left and how much salary you are trying to replace. Veterans making salary have preference to guys without options who have preference to guys with options. That's the pecking order.The guys with options get demoted first.

 

Sox Sport----we have Exhibit A to what you just wrote.......2011 Spring Training. We have underachieving and injury prone JD Drew coming off a miserable season but with one year and $15 million dollars coming. We also have Ryan Kalish, called up in the middle of 2010 when injuries decimated us (par for the course the past four years) who plays well enough to earn a full time spot in 2011. Instead Salary Drew wins, underachieves, gets hurt, plays poorly when he comes back, goes out of the lineup for the least little ache or pain while Kalish goes to Pawtucket where he gets hurt and now we lose him perhaps permanently from numerous injuries that started when he was sent down. Perhaps if we had kept him in Boston he might not have gotten hurt the way he did. You think??????

 

 

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[Dojji]

Youkilis took longer than he needed down there. He was ready a good year before they brought him up. So maybe not "stuck" but certainly "delayed" alot of times. The next guy who's gonna be delayed longer than he needs to be is Barnes in AA, guarantee it. Jackie Bradley could start for some Major leage teams right now. So this is another case of being "delayed". Sure having Victorino is nice, but are they that afraid to bring in a kid? I mean cmon

 

Youkilis wasn't stuck in AAA in any meaningful sense.

 

In 04, Youk managed only a .753 OPS in AAA, and they still called him up for backup duty and he wound up with about 250 PA's that year. Managed some pretty solid numbers but nothing really stood out, so they brought in some veterans who beat Youk in camp. La de da, life in a franchise that proceeds cautiously with young players when given a choice.

 

In 05, he started the season in AAA, lit it up, and added himself to the mix in Boston despite Mueller, Millar, and Olerud dominating the depth chart ahead of him.

 

After that, he was full time in the bigs.

 

The closest thing he ever was to seriously "stuck" was the first half of 05, and that's a decision you make when a rookie is good-not-great and you're trying to win a second World Series. And even then, he was allowed to make a case for himself when every other option was no better than he'd proven he could be, and won himself playing time as a result. All he had to do in the end is make the best use of the chances he was given to make himself an option in the eyes of the franchise. With that accomplished, a path to the bigs would eventually open for him. And it did.

 

Try again.

[Dojji]

Perhaps if we had kept him in Boston he might not have gotten hurt the way he did. You think??????

 

No I don't think. Especially in retrospect when it became clear that Kalish's shoulder was made of tissue paper.

 

Besides, you're forgetting the guy who pulled our fat out of the fire, who was given his chance in the wake of the Kalish injury.

 

And who was then immediately traded to Oakland despite the only depth ahead of him being Mr. Shoulder Surgery and Mr. One Year Contract.

 

If you want to abuse the thumbs down emote, that's what you abuse it on. Bailey or no Bailey, the Reddick trade was a prime example of poor asset management.

[Palodios]

Red Sox GM Ben Cherington says that he does not expect Jacoby Ellsbury contract situation to be a distraction at any point this season

 

Sounds like they have no interest in retaining him.

[Bellhorn04]

Sounds like they have no interest in retaining him.

 

He's as gone as a player still under contract can be. I just hope it motivates him to have a big season.

[SoxSport]

http://live.boston.com/Event/2013_Red_Sox_spring_training/63652580

 

This misleading story is an example of how the Globe has made Valentine a patsy for all the Red Sox problems, while deflecting blame from the current regime.

 

The story implies that Bard didn't trust Valentine--what he was saying was he trusted Farrell, because Farrell had seen him previously. But Valentine did see him in Ft Myers, before his makeover into a starter--and felt he should stay in the bullpen. He was, of course, overruled by Cherington--which was the beginning of Valentine's problems.

 

I doubt Bard was taking a "thinly veiled shot at Valentine" . Rather it was the Globe which was doing so--unfairly. Bard's target should be Cherington and the FO--but that would not be advisable.

[SoxSport]

Sox Sport----we have Exhibit A to what you just wrote.......2011 Spring Training. We have underachieving and injury prone JD Drew coming off a miserable season but with one year and $15 million dollars coming. We also have Ryan Kalish, called up in the middle of 2010 when injuries decimated us (par for the course the past four years) who plays well enough to earn a full time spot in 2011. Instead Salary Drew wins, underachieves, gets hurt, plays poorly when he comes back, goes out of the lineup for the least little ache or pain while Kalish goes to Pawtucket where he gets hurt and now we lose him perhaps permanently from numerous injuries that started when he was sent down. Perhaps if we had kept him in Boston he might not have gotten hurt the way he did. You think??????

 

 

:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown

 

Exactly. The dangers of sitting on prospects blocked by salary.

[SoxSport]

No I don't think. Especially in retrospect when it became clear that Kalish's shoulder was made of tissue paper.

 

Besides, you're forgetting the guy who pulled our fat out of the fire, who was given his chance in the wake of the Kalish injury.

 

And who was then immediately traded to Oakland despite the only depth ahead of him being Mr. Shoulder Surgery and Mr. One Year Contract.

 

If you want to abuse the thumbs down emote, that's what you abuse it on. Bailey or no Bailey, the Reddick trade was a prime example of poor asset management.

 

Reddick had a strong first half his last season in Boston--then tapered off the 2nd half.

Pretty much the same pattern in Oakland, though he did show more power in Oakland.

But he's also a very good outfielder--overlooked by the Red Sox.

 

Reddick is also an example of a guy who has exceeded his minor league numbers in the majors. A sign maybe he's still improving.

 

You have to question the judgement of the Red Sox FO in recent years--starting with the FA signings of Epstein. This is basically the same FO as in the Epstein era, so not much change there. What they have done is rehired James as a consultant--which should help. That was the beginning of their demise a few years ago, when they let all their saber consultants go--part-time people who cost them a pittance.

 

The upper management has made a lot of dumb decisions the last 4-5 years, and that's why they are where they are.

[Station 13]

Sounds like they have no interest in retaining him.

 

I got that Vibe from ellsbury as well.

[Bellhorn04]

Exactly. The dangers of sitting on prospects blocked by salary.

 

Seriously? Playing in Pawtucket is more dangerous physically than playing in Boston?

[Bellhorn04]

I got that Vibe from ellsbury as well.

 

That vibe started the minute he hired Boras. And Boras's name kept popping up in Ellsbury's 2010 long-running rib injury drama.

[Station 13]

That vibe started the minute he hired Boras. And Boras's name kept popping up in Ellsbury's 2010 long-running rib injury drama.

 

He has pretty much brush all contract extension talks aside for years. While the Sox locked up many players.

[mvp 78]

Seriously? Playing in Pawtucket is more dangerous physically than playing in Boston?

 

Rhode Island drivers are horrible. Aside from that, SBF's point isn't valid.

[jung]

Seriously? Playing in Pawtucket is more dangerous physically than playing in Boston?

 

I would not think the issue is the danger of playing one place or the other.

 

The issue is that if a player is blocked either entirely due to or even mostly due to salary then as an organization you are likely paying way to much to the player on the ML roster for essentially the same performance that you could get from the guy that is blocked. If you extend that line of reasoning out farther, if the player that is blocked is injured playing minor league ball, you not only lose the value that his major league play would represent at that time but you may well lose it for an even longer period of time.....maybe even forever.

[a700hitter]

He's as gone as a player still under contract can be. I just hope it motivates him to have a big season.

Like Papelbon in 2011.

[mvp 78]

I would not think the issue is the danger of playing one place or the other.

 

The issue is that if a player is blocked either entirely due to or even mostly due to salary then as an organization you are likely paying way to much to the player on the ML roster for essentially the same performance that you could get from the guy that is blocked. If you extend that line of reasoning out farther, if the player that is blocked is injured playing minor league ball, you not only lose the value that his major league play would represent at that time but you may well lose it for an even longer period of time.....maybe even forever.

 

SBF's point is he wouldn't have been injured in Boston. Knowing what we know now, it should be obvious that Kalish was likely to get injured wherever he was playing.

[a700hitter]

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/2013/02/17/for-jonny-gomes-red-sox-are-opportunity/FLopHuZLZTwUINcAEHZsnK/story.html

 

This article about Gomes also discusses Sweeney and Nava. When these guys are your OF options, you don't have a very good team. Gomes is a second rate player and the others have trouble making it to second rate.

[Palodios]

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/2013/02/17/for-jonny-gomes-red-sox-are-opportunity/FLopHuZLZTwUINcAEHZsnK/story.html

 

This article about Gomes also discusses Sweeney and Nava. When these guys are your OF options, you don't have a very good team. Gomes is a second rate player and the others have trouble making it to second rate.

 

He's an ideal player in a platoon situation. Everyone talking about him within the organization makes me feel very concerned that they actually see him to be more than that role.

[a700hitter]

http://live.boston.com/Event/2013_Red_Sox_spring_training/63652580

 

This misleading story is an example of how the Globe has made Valentine a patsy for all the Red Sox problems, while deflecting blame from the current regime.

 

The story implies that Bard didn't trust Valentine--what he was saying was he trusted Farrell, because Farrell had seen him previously. But Valentine did see him in Ft Myers, before his makeover into a starter--and felt he should stay in the bullpen. He was, of course, overruled by Cherington--which was the beginning of Valentine's problems.

 

I doubt Bard was taking a "thinly veiled shot at Valentine" . Rather it was the Globe which was doing so--unfairly. Bard's target should be Cherington and the FO--but that would not be advisable.

It's propaganda to try to generate interest in an inferior team with no exciting players. Valentine was a problem last year, but he was not the reason for Bard sucking. That was Bard's doing. Bobby V could see early on in Spring Training that Bard was not up to the task and he offered him a way out. He asked him flat out if he was up to it and whether he wanted to pursue being a starter. Bard should have taken that as a sign that a veteran talent evaluator like Valentine didn't think he had it, and he didn't have it. It became more clear with each outing. The kid stubbornly insisted that he could do the job, and he s*** all over himself. Cherries was committed to the experiment, and Bobby V had just had his balls cut off over his comments about Youkilis, so he was not in a position to pull the plug on the experiment unilaterally. I still feel believe that he left Bard in that game against Toronto to s*** all over himself so badly that the team had to send him to the minors out of sheer humiliation. If you remember, Bard just thought he needed to straighten out a few things before his next start. The kid was clueless. He couldn't find anything for the next 3 months in the Bullpen in AAA and then back in Boston.

[a700hitter]

He's an ideal player in a platoon situation. Everyone talking about him within the organization makes me feel very concerned that they actually see him to be more than that role.

I understand Gomes wanting to play everyday. Players need that kind of confidence, but the organization needs to realize the limitations of its players if it is going to be successful. Cherries is kidding himself if he thinks that Gomes is anything more than a good platoon player. Pairing him with Sweeney is also foolish. Sweeney would not even be at an MLB camp if Kalish wasn't injured again. No other organization wants a slow outfielder with 1 homer in his last 500 plate appearances. The hardest thing he hit last year was the door with his hand.

[jung]

SBF's point is he wouldn't have been injured in Boston. Knowing what we know now, it should be obvious that Kalish was likely to get injured wherever he was playing.

 

Well there are actually two points here. You are correct....Kalish appears to be the outfield version of Bailey, maybe with the one difference that Kalish may have a shoulder so weakened at this point that it will never be 100% while Bailey is just a walking encyclopedia of injury. Neither has been able to prove he can stay on the field.

 

The other point about minor league vs major league baseball may well have been valid at one point. There was a time when many of the minor league parks around baseball were terrible places to play. Many had poor fields, crummy drainage, lousy padding, dangerously screwed up foul territory...so much so that you could at one point make the case that extended play in the minor leagues vs. play in the major leagues did in fact represent a greater chance of injury. I just do not think that is the case any longer. Minor league parks I go to all in great shape these days. They may not be as luxurious or as attractive as ML parks but they are not more dangerous. I think that is pretty much true around baseball.

 

That said, blocking players mainly for reasons of salary still represents a pretty bad value proposition, having nothing to do with thinking there is a greater chance of injury playing minor league vs major league ball.

[Bellhorn04]

That said, blocking players mainly for reasons of salary still represents a pretty bad value proposition, having nothing to do with thinking there is a greater chance of injury playing minor league vs major league ball.

 

I agree. And the Red Sox have undoubtedly been guilty of this on a few occasions. But I really think the perception is being blown out of proportion to the reality.