Red Sox 2012/2013 Offseason Thread

[jung]

IMO that is just about right Bell.

[mvp 78]

If SBF seriously thinks Kalish injured his shoulder because McCoy is a terrible stadium, then he's wrong on both accounts...

[Dojji]

Well there are actually two points here. You are correct....Kalish appears to be the outfield version of Bailey, maybe with the one difference that Kalish may have a shoulder so weakened at this point that it will never be 100% while Bailey is just a walking encyclopedia of injury. Neither has been able to prove he can stay on the field.

 

The other point about minor league vs major league baseball may well have been valid at one point. There was a time when many of the minor league parks around baseball were terrible places to play. Many had poor fields, crummy drainage, lousy padding, dangerously screwed up foul territory...so much so that you could at one point make the case that extended play in the minor leagues vs. play in the major leagues did in fact represent a greater chance of injury. I just do not think that is the case any longer. Minor league parks I go to all in great shape these days. They may not be as luxurious or as attractive as ML parks but they are not more dangerous. I think that is pretty much true around baseball.

 

That said, blocking players mainly for reasons of salary still represents a pretty bad value proposition, having nothing to do with thinking there is a greater chance of injury playing minor league vs major league ball.

 

The team has to give young players a shot.

 

It's then up to the players to do as much as they can with that shot.

 

That's the difference between a player who is touted, but never really gets more than an inning or two, like Michael Bowden, and the much less talented prospects that occasionally crack the big leagues over them like, say, Kason Gabbard back in 07. Gabbard made the most of his chances and wound up sticking in the majors, at least until he got hurt. Bowden really didn't and now he's a reliever with the Cubs organization.

 

Point being, there's a responsibility on the player to make it easy to think about giving him a chance. Putting it all on the team ignores that responsibility.

[SoxSport]

Seriously? Playing in Pawtucket is more dangerous physically than playing in Boston?

 

ha. That's one way to interpret it, but not the only way. Depends on how much you play.

Better off getting hurt in Boston instead of treading water in Pawtucket.

[SoxSport]

That vibe started the minute he hired Boras. And Boras's name kept popping up in Ellsbury's 2010 long-running rib injury drama.

 

Trouble is, somebody said Bradley's agent is also Boras. Boras is into player development and conditioning as well, which must wrankle some teams.

[SoxSport]

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/2013/02/17/for-jonny-gomes-red-sox-are-opportunity/FLopHuZLZTwUINcAEHZsnK/story.html

 

This article about Gomes also discusses Sweeney and Nava. When these guys are your OF options, you don't have a very good team. Gomes is a second rate player and the others have trouble making it to second rate.

 

The caveat is the Oakland As are a team full of nobodies, and they did pretty well last year.

But their organization is much better than Boston's.

[a700hitter]

The caveat is the Oakland As are a team full of nobodies, and they did pretty well last year.

But their organization is much better than Boston's.

Also, the A's are built on solid young pitching.

[Plumpamania]

Also, the A's are built on solid young pitching.

 

OMG DUDE STOP THE IDIOCY, THEY ARE BUILT ON JACK CUST AND MATT STAIRS!

[jung]

Soxsport's comment about getting hurt in Boston vs treading water in Pawtucket does remind me of one thing. Unless you are on the 40 man roster or have a contract as a minor league player that dictates a certain pay scale, being called up represents a huge difference in pay from almost nothing to major league minimum. I would guess that any really important prospect is being paid based on a contract.

[Palodios]

Also, the A's are built on solid young pitching.

 

They have a few solid players, but their roster is pretty a pile of role players, and I don't think that's a sustainable strategy. They also lost several players in free agency. The A's are pretty muchbuilt on their ballpark... which makes their mediocre pitchers look solid.

 

Look at the top two guys on their depth chart.

 

Tommy -- 2.74 Home/ 4.83 Away ERA

Milone 2.61 Home/ 4.54 Away ERA

Their closer: Balfour-- 1.06 Home/ 4.45 Away ERA

Former ace Gio Gonzalez's year in 2011: 2.70 Home /3.62 Away ERA. Still very good, but definitely influenced by the park.

 

Not that any of that is all that relevant to the discussion at hand, I'm just getting stir-crazy for baseball.

[a700hitter]

They have a few solid players, but their roster is pretty a pile of role players, and I don't think that's a sustainable strategy. They also lost several players in free agency. The A's are pretty muchbuilt on their ballpark... which makes their mediocre pitchers look solid.

 

Look at the top two guys on their depth chart.

 

Tommy -- 2.74 Home/ 4.83 Away ERA

Milone 2.61 Home/ 4.54 Away ERA

Their closer: Balfour-- 1.06 Home/ 4.45 Away ERA

Former ace Gio Gonzalez's year in 2011: 2.70 Home /3.62 Away ERA. Still very good, but definitely influenced by the park.

 

Not that any of that is all that relevant to the discussion at hand, I'm just getting stir-crazy for baseball.

Yep, me too. 16 more days until my Fort Myers trip.

[seabeachfred]

SBF's point is he wouldn't have been injured in Boston. Knowing what we know now, it should be obvious that Kalish was likely to get injured wherever he was playing.

 

Please MVP, you and Dojii need to get straight on a couple of points. When Kalish played in Boston the latter part of 2010 he made a number of diving catches with risk to his shoulder and he didn't get hurt. At that time he was considered a better prospect than Reddick and was considered a disciplined but hard nosed player. His troubles began when he was wrongly sent down to Pawtucket before the 2012 season in favor of a salary (Drew). If he had stayed in Boston could he still have gotten hurt? Perhaps. Could he have maybe not gotten hurt? Perhaps. What we do know is he was wrongly sent down and DID get hurt and then got hurt again and we now have most likely lost another good prospect because of blockage and salary.

 

As for Dojii's claim that Kalish's shoulder was made out of tissue paper, you know as well as I do that his shoulder never was a problem until he hurt it----in Pawtucket where he should never have been in the first place.

[SoxSport]

Please MVP, you and Dojii need to get straight on a couple of points. When Kalish played in Boston the latter part of 2010 he made a number of diving catches with risk to his shoulder and he didn't get hurt. At that time he was considered a better prospect than Reddick and was considered a disciplined but hard nosed player. His troubles began when he was wrongly sent down to Pawtucket before the 2012 season in favor of a salary (Drew). If he had stayed in Boston could he still have gotten hurt? Perhaps. Could he have maybe not gotten hurt? Perhaps. What we do know is he was wrongly sent down and DID get hurt and then got hurt again and we now have most likely lost another good prospect because of blockage and salary.

 

 

That's pretty much the point I was trying to make. You have to wonder whether it's time for new ownership--Henry clearly isn't changing much within an organization that needs a fresh approach.

[Dojji]

Please MVP, you and Dojii need to get straight on a couple of points. When Kalish played in Boston the latter part of 2010 he made a number of diving catches with risk to his shoulder and he didn't get hurt. At that time he was considered a better prospect than Reddick and was considered a disciplined but hard nosed player. His troubles began when he was wrongly sent down to Pawtucket before the 2012 season in favor of a salary (Drew). If he had stayed in Boston could he still have gotten hurt? Perhaps. Could he have maybe not gotten hurt? Perhaps. What we do know is he was wrongly sent down and DID get hurt and then got hurt again and we now have most likely lost another good prospect because of blockage and salary.

 

As for Dojii's claim that Kalish's shoulder was made out of tissue paper, you know as well as I do that his shoulder never was a problem until he hurt it----in Pawtucket where he should never have been in the first place.

 

This point is no point at all.

 

He was sent down to Pawtucket in favor of Drew. He got hurt. These two incidents have no causative relationship whatsoever, and in fact as I recall, Kalish got hurt very early in the year and may have been "playing through the pain" since Spring Training or before, if his batting line before he went down is any indication.

 

If you want to play the woulda-coulda-shoulda game, you need to have a stronger "coulda." In an alternate universe where Kalish doesn't get hurt, he also comes up with the team at about the same point Reddick did or before, and probably outperforms his final season numbers. But there was nothing wrong with stashing Kalish in the minors when it was done. Nearly every team in baseball will do it that way, and the kid usually winds up winning the job in the end. For it to play out that way though, it was up to Kalish to make that situation temporary and he turned around and did the exact opposite.

 

Few to no teams will fail to favor a veteran in April. The vet has to play his way into a competition in order to bring the kids into play, that's how it's always gone, whether the veteran ultimately won the competition or the kid did. This time, ultimately, nobody won the competition, since the closest thing to a winner was shipped out of town at the first opportunity.

 

You can't divorce the situation from Kalish's responsibility to make the most of his chances. Now maybe it isn't his fault, but that doesn't make those chances magically seized, any more than it did with Jed Lowrie when it was his turn, or a number of other injury prone "potential stars." If Kalish wasn't in a position to push for a starting job for whatever reason, it's hard to fault the GM for not handing him one.

[jacksonianmarch]

Kalish is a hard nosed type of player and sounds a lot like a Trot Nixon type when it comes to motor. That's not really a complement since his reckless play has led to some serious injuries. He has to learn to pick his spots or else he'll be washed up physically by the time he's 30. His issue is akin to Yankee prospect Slade Heathcott. Talent through the roof, but reckless beyond belief and injuries are running the risk of career derailment

[wyo-sox]

Yep, me too. 16 more days until my Fort Myers trip.

 

Hope you have a great time! Enjoy yourself. Keep us posted.

[a700hitter]

Hope you have a great time! Enjoy yourself. Keep us posted.

 

Thanks.

[seabeachfred]

This point is no point at all.

 

He was sent down to Pawtucket in favor of Drew. He got hurt. These two incidents have no causative relationship whatsoever, and in fact as I recall, Kalish got hurt very early in the year and may have been "playing through the pain" since Spring Training or before, if his batting line before he went down is any indication.

 

If you want to play the woulda-coulda-shoulda game, you need to have a stronger "coulda." In an alternate universe where Kalish doesn't get hurt, he also comes up with the team at about the same point Reddick did or before, and probably outperforms his final season numbers. But there was nothing wrong with stashing Kalish in the minors when it was done. Nearly every team in baseball will do it that way, and the kid usually winds up winning the job in the end. For it to play out that way though, it was up to Kalish to make that situation temporary and he turned around and did the exact opposite.

 

Few to no teams will fail to favor a veteran in April. The vet has to play his way into a competition in order to bring the kids into play, that's how it's always gone, whether the veteran ultimately won the competition or the kid did. This time, ultimately, nobody won the competition, since the closest thing to a winner was shipped out of town at the first opportunity.

 

You can't divorce the situation from Kalish's responsibility to make the most of his chances. Now maybe it isn't his fault, but that doesn't make those chances magically seized, any more than it did with Jed Lowrie when it was his turn, or a number of other injury prone "potential stars." If Kalish wasn't in a position to push for a starting job for whatever reason, it's hard to fault the GM for not handing him one.

 

If you're going to recall that Kalish "might have gotten hurt early in ST", which is a load of hay, how about also remembering that he was clearly outplaying Drew in Spring Training and was still sent down. That should never have happened. Salary trumped ability and common sense and the result was a disaster and you trying to give cover to the front office for that stupid move is silly in the extreme. The result is that we've probably lost a good prospect due to the ineptness of the front office. This has happened before in Red Sox history if you will check up on it. Remember Gene Stephens, "the successor to Ted Williams" back in the early 50's. They kept jerking him around too and we wound up wasted because he got stale going back and forth to Louisville and then wasting away on the bench when he was called up.

 

Frank Malzone? That ring a bell with you by any chance? In both 1955 and 1956 he clearly outplayed both Grady Hatton and Ted Lepcio for the third base spot and both times he was sent down to Louisville. Remember that? No you don't---so I will remind you. Lepcio wasted away and eventually was traded. Hatton was absolutely miserable and when Malzone finally got the job in 1957 he was 27 years old and at least two or three years late from getting a promotion. BTW, in 1957 he his 293, 15 homers and 103 RBI's.

 

No Dojii, the Red Sox front office still does this jerking around with young players and I'm beginning to think that it was only because Theo Epstein stubbornly insisted that Youkilis, Pedroia and then Ellsbury get their shot that they weren't also sent down for "more damn seasoning. Sox Sport said earlier he believes what we need is new ownership with some new ideas and philosophies and definitely minus Larry Lucchino. For decades this has been going on with the Red Sox.

[mvp 78]

Ah yes, you were quite the Sox fan in 57!

[seabeachfred]

Ah yes, you were quite the Sox fan in 57!

 

Another pearl of idiocy from our resident cynic. I mean can't you do better than that? Besides, I didn't have to be a fan of the Red Sox back in 1957 to know what was going on with that team. For your edification I have always been a baseball junkie and I happen to have a photographic memory so this is easy for me to remember. Besides, my neighbor across the street, Dick Pedrotti, was in the Red Sox chain at the time and actually was a contender for the third base job until leg injuries pretty much ruined his career.

 

Most importantly, my facts are straight and they are accurate which, as Casey Stengel once said...YOU COULD LOOK IT UP!!!!!!, which, of course you won't do. If you're going to keep disagreeing with me with everything I post the least you could do would be to give a good counter argument instead of your ridiculous one liners---or are you the one who is the successor to User in that department? At least he and I did agree once in awhile

[a700hitter]

Another pearl of idiocy from our resident cynic. I mean can't you do better than that? Besides, I didn't have to be a fan of the Red Sox back in 1957 to know what was going on with that team. For your edification I have always been a baseball junkie and I happen to have a photographic memory so this is easy for me to remember. Besides, my neighbor across the street, Dick Pedrotti, was in the Red Sox chain at the time and actually was a contender for the third base job until leg injuries pretty much ruined his career.

 

Most importantly, my facts are straight and they are accurate which, as Casey Stengel once said...YOU COULD LOOK IT UP!!!!!!, which, of course you won't do. If you're going to keep disagreeing with me with everything I post the least you could do would be to give a good counter argument instead of your ridiculous one liners---or are you the one who is the successor to User in that department? At least he and I did agree once in awhile

Fred, you have a great memory for baseball. Great story about Malzone from over 50 years ago. I used to have that kind of memory for baseball stories, but i don't remember the details that I used to.

 

Fred, some old Brooklyn fans had told me tales about a Dodger pitcher who came up with the Dodgers around the same time as Koufax and Drysdale, but who was a better prospect than either of them. His name was Karl Spooner. You know everything about those 50's Dodger teams, so I'd like to read your recollections about Spooner.

[jacksonianmarch]

per rotoworld, Aceves' agent was given the first warning shot, no more antics will be tolerated from Aceves

[seabeachfred]

Fred, you have a great memory for baseball. Great story about Malzone from over 50 years ago. I used to have that kind of memory for baseball stories, but i don't remember the details that I used to.

 

Fred, some old Brooklyn fans had told me tales about a Dodger pitcher who came up with the Dodgers around the same time as Koufax and Drysdale, but who was a better prospect than either of them. His name was Karl Spooner. You know everything about those 50's Dodger teams, so I'd like to read your recollections about Spooner.

 

Glad to help out my friend, but let me first tell you and others that the photographic memory is for things way in the past. I would have to crane my brain to remember what I had for dinner last Friday. Weird isn't it?

 

Those fans are absolutely right Ted. Karl Spooner was a better prospect t han either Koufax or Drysdale, even if that is hard to believe. The latter two developed from prospects into outstanding pitchers, Koufax later than Drysdale. Spooner was a star from Day One.

 

In 1954, pitching in the Texas League, we went 21-9 and struck out over 200 batters. Even though this was Double A, he was promoted to the Brooklyn Dodgers the last week of the disappointing 1954 season and Walter Alston started him in their last game against the soon-to-be World Champion Giants on September 22, 1954. In the first inning he put on the first three batters, then got out of it by striking out either the side or two of the next three batters. He wound up with a three hit, 3-0 shutout and 15 strikeouts that Wednesday.

 

On Sunday, the 26th, he started and shut out the Pirates 1-0 with 12 strikeouts. Two wins and two shutouts and 27 strikeouts. The future looked unlimited. It wasn't. It got arm trouble in ST, 1955 and wound up with only an 8-6 record, plus a one inning knockout loss to the Yankees in the 6th game of the 1955 World Series. The next Spring, 1956, the arm troubles got so bad he stayed in Vero Beach and tried to work through his miseries, but back then medical science is not what it is today and by 1957 his career was over.

 

Hey MVP, if you're tuning in......You could take Casey Stengel's advice and "look it up". I didn't have to. It was already in my memory bank. I hope this helps Ted. And we have to talk soon. I'm getting really in need of a baseball fix:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[seabeachfred]

per rotoworld, Aceves' agent was given the first warning shot, no more antics will be tolerated from Aceves

 

Now you went through this when Aceves was on the Yankees Jacko. Do you really think this is going to work out? It didn't with your ball club, why should it work out for ours. The guy seems like a malcontent.....one year he is on his good behavior, the next he is an *******. I hope the Red Sox follow through with this warning if he acts up again.

[a700hitter]

Glad to help out my friend, but let me first tell you and others that the photographic memory is for things way in the past. I would have to crane my brain to remember what I had for dinner last Friday. Weird isn't it?

 

Those fans are absolutely right Ted. Karl Spooner was a better prospect t han either Koufax or Drysdale, even if that is hard to believe. The latter two developed from prospects into outstanding pitchers, Koufax later than Drysdale. Spooner was a star from Day One.

 

In 1954, pitching in the Texas League, we went 21-9 and struck out over 200 batters. Even though this was Double A, he was promoted to the Brooklyn Dodgers the last week of the disappointing 1954 season and Walter Alston started him in their last game against the soon-to-be World Champion Giants on September 22, 1954. In the first inning he put on the first three batters, then got out of it by striking out either the side or two of the next three batters. He wound up with a three hit, 3-0 shutout and 15 strikeouts that Wednesday.

 

On Sunday, the 26th, he started and shut out the Pirates 1-0 with 12 strikeouts. Two wins and two shutouts and 27 strikeouts. The future looked unlimited. It wasn't. It got arm trouble in ST, 1955 and wound up with only an 8-6 record, plus a one inning knockout loss to the Yankees in the 6th game of the 1955 World Series. The next Spring, 1956, the arm troubles got so bad he stayed in Vero Beach and tried to work through his miseries, but back then medical science is not what it is today and by 1957 his career was over.

 

Hey MVP, if you're tuning in......You could take Casey Stengel's advice and "look it up". I didn't have to. It was already in my memory bank. I hope this helps Ted. And we have to talk soon. I'm getting really in need of a baseball fix:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Great stuff, Fred. Thanks. I'll call you before I leave for Fort Myers.

[dupree]

Mariners GM says Mike Carp is likely to get traded in the next 24-48 hours. Is any new report that the Sox are the team who is likely to trade for him?

 

I know that Seattle has a log jam of 1B players and Carp seems to be the odd man out but im wondering more and more if his shoulder injury from opening day last year has lingering effects and has taken away his power. He was a 30 hrs guy in the minors for Seattle. I think he deserves a look, id be more comfrontable with him competing for a LF spot when Gomes get a day off than Nava or Overbay (i seen reports where he would be looked out in LF).

[Dojji]

Why would we want Mike Carp? He plays a role we theoretically need, sure, but the man is not good at that role.

 

If we really need a guy to platoon lefty at first base, I'd almost rather let Salty do it. He's more productive offensively than Carp has been anytime in the last 3 years. Between Salty's ability to show up at first base occasionally, and Nava's platoon lefty ways, we probably don't need that role filled badly enough to take a Carp-sized risk.

 

I think Carp is too unlikely to be a meaningful upgrade over Mauro Gomez, even with the technically favorable platoon handedness going for him, for me to be interested in seeing the Sox make that move.

[jung]

I can't say that I am thrilled with Carp either. The Sox have already cornered the market on backup outfielders, fill-in infielders, project catchers and wanna' be starting pitchers. While Carp would fit right into that menagerie...that just sounds like a big so what. Near as I can tell, he would just be another complication in what will likely turn out to be a verrrry complicated year for Mr. Farrell. Just filling out the lineup card could turn out to be a challenge and that is not meant to besmirch Farrell's abilities as a Manager. I am beginning to wonder if the FO guys all sit around a big table trying to figure out if a certain player is mediocre enough to be attractive to them.

 

Fortunately for Farrell, realistic expectations for the Sox are about as low as they can get with a big piece of the expert pool picking the Sox for the basement. Unless Farrell finds a way to finish lower than last, he just cannot disappoint. What are we gonna' say.....that he did not finish last with enough style?

[mvp 78]

Fred, it's just that your anger takes you back to 1957 to attempt a link to today's club. It's ridiculous. If the only way you "prove" your point is to go back 55 years, then your point probably isn't valid. For someone whose arguments are pretty weak, this Kalish nonsense takes the cake.

[seabeachfred]

Fred, it's just that your anger takes you back to 1957 to attempt a link to today's club. It's ridiculous. If the only way you "prove" your point is to go back 55 years, then your point probably isn't valid. For someone whose arguments are pretty weak, this Kalish nonsense takes the cake.

 

That's your opinion about my arguments being "pretty weak", as you so lamely put it, but there are those who agree with that assessment as you know from reading other posts by other posters. The fact is the Red Sox do seem to hold onto their prospects too long in the minors, often with disastrous results, but it wouldn't matter if I wrote that the sun rises in the East. You would still disagree with me just as you have disagreed with everything I've posted the past few months....everything. You haven't agreed with me even once and to be that is ridiculous.

 

The previous posts have been if we should go after Mike Carp. Dojii and others say no and so do I. Care to agree or disagree with that? Here's your chance to prove me wrong.