Sox and Ortiz Settle at Mid-Point

[mvp 78]

I said "better" not "All Star."

[Emmz]

True, not tough to improve on that. \o/

[User Name]

League average is s*****' date=' and slightly above average is still s*****. I don't discredit the hot streak, it happened, don't know where you pulled that out of, or how much it hurt to do so. Doesn't matter what Bill James projects, I'm pretty sure it's not a fool proof formula. His career has yet to inspire hope. Spin it whatever way you like, but Salty is mediocre overall. His bat doesn't make up for how much of a butcher he is.[/quote']

 

"League average" is "league average". "s*****" is "very much below league average".

 

First off, Your initial point was that his "hot streak" would not be repeated, meaning we are talking about offense. You are discrediting it by denying the possibility of it happening again.

 

If you want to bring defense into the argument, Salty's WAR was 2.5, thanks in part to ia very good defensive runs average which improved as the season progressed. The "butcher" argument is overplayed.

 

Second, while the Bill James formula is not foolproof it has something that neither of our arguments has: Objectivity.

 

Third, you have yet to explain why there's no chance for improvement. All you're giving me is the "no confidence" argument.

[User Name]

I said "better" not "All Star."

 

Funny, because Russell Martin was an "All-Star" last year because of one hot month. All-star games are a joke.

[Emmz]

Anyways, that OPS is where I could see, if not a good deal more. But you should have seen some of the posters here telling everyone he's an elite catcher, for 3 months. Some posters even said he was sucky, then jumped on the wagon when he got hot. Basically, I'm going to let a 3 month stretch be the deciding factor in what I see. He's still mediocre.

[User Name]

Mediocre is a good deal better than s*****. And how anyone can anoint him an elite catcher is beyond comprehension.

 

Then again, Lavarnway is already being hailed as the second coming of Jesus Christ off of a couple AB's.

[redsoxfan3]

You can't expect everyone in the starting lineup to be above average as a hitter, it is almost impossible. We have Pedroia, Gonzalez, Ellsbury, Ortiz, Crawford, and Youkilis as guys who are going to carry this offense. If Youk and Crawford improve and do what they are capable of doing, and Ortiz and Ellsbury don't have a devastating dropoff in production, then those six will be able to carry this offense. It is fine that Salty is right around the league average. At SS, Aviles will be decent offensively. I expect improvement in RF offensively as well. Our offense isn't the concern for this team. Salty will be fine with his production.

[Emmz]

"League average" is "league average". "s*****" is "very much below league average".

 

First off, Your initial point was that his "hot streak" would not be repeated, meaning we are talking about offense. You are discrediting it by denying the possibility of it happening again.

 

If you want to bring defense into the argument, Salty's WAR was 2.5, thanks in part to ia very good defensive runs average which improved as the season progressed. The "butcher" argument is overplayed.

 

Second, while the Bill James formula is not foolproof it has something that neither of our arguments has: Objectivity.

 

Third, you have yet to explain why there's no chance for improvement. All you're giving me is the "no confidence" argument.

Well for starters, you're imposing your subjectivity to the term "s*****". League average doesn't even apply to shittiness.

 

I'd like to see where I said it won't happen again. I said essentially that it may or may not. Or where I said he can't improve. I haven't seen anything to suggest either of those things would happen, that's all I said. You and everyone else has a nasty habit of trying to read between the lines.

[Emmz]

Mediocre is a good deal better than s*****. And how anyone can anoint him an elite catcher is beyond comprehension.

 

Then again, Lavarnway is already being hailed as the second coming of Jesus Christ off of a couple AB's.

 

If you're not good, you're s*****. It's all about subjectivity. Feel free to squabble over why my definition for good and s***** are highly uneducated and flawed with poor logic if you like.

[User Name]

Well for starters, you're imposing your subjectivity to the term "s*****". League average doesn't even apply to shittiness.

 

I'd like to see where I said it won't happen again. I said essentially that it may or may not. Or where I said he can't improve. I haven't seen anything to suggest either of those things would happen, that's all I said. You and everyone else has a nasty habit of trying to read between the lines.

 

You expect Salty to be better? He's been awful. The only reason he was as good as that was a 3 month span where his slg% went up by 200 points. Not banking on that performance to be repeated.

 

I rest my case. No reading between the lines, but going by what you actually said.

 

Just admit that while there's not a solid argument to be made about why he will improve, there's not one about why he won't improve either.

[User Name]

If you're not good' date=' you're s*****. It's all about subjectivity. Feel free to squabble over why my definition for good and s***** are highly uneducated and flawed with poor logic if you like.[/quote']

 

Hey now, no need to get all mad. We can stick to the discussion of Salty without going for the heavy weaponry.

[Emmz]

I rest my case. No reading between the lines, but going by what you actually said.

 

Just admit that while there's not a solid argument to be made about why he will improve, there's not one about why he won't improve either.

 

Nothing bolded shows where I've said he's not going to improve, or have another hot streak. That is the epitome of reading between the lines. You couldn't have magnified my point any better for me... But then you kept typing, and said EXACTLY WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING THIS ENTIRE TIME.

 

School's out.

[Emmz]

Hey now' date=' no need to get all mad. We can stick to the discussion of Salty without going for the heavy weaponry.[/quote']

 

If that's how you want to delude your mind into thinking you're right, then sure.

 

I'm actually still laughing at the last post you made, where you actually made my point for me.

[Emmz]

No evidence he's going to improve other than its not very tough to improve on a .740 OPS.

[User Name]

Nothing bolded shows where I've said he's not going to improve, or have another hot streak. That is the epitome of reading between the lines. You couldn't have magnified my point any better for me... But then you kept typing, and said EXACTLY WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING THIS ENTIRE TIME.

 

School's out.

 

Now this is deluding yourself.

[User Name]

No evidence he's going to improve other than its not very tough to improve on a .740 OPS.

 

Or projections?

[Laser Show]

No evidence he's going to improve other than its not very tough to improve on a .740 OPS.

 

Salty had the 14th highest OPS (out of 27) among catchers with 300+ PAs. He's an average catcher. Why do you continue to say he's s*****?

[Emmz]

Now this is deluding yourself.

 

All I said is there's little reason to expect Salty to be any form of good. I never said he can't or won't. Textbook case of reading between the lines. If I wanted to, I could find posts where I said he could definitely be a top-tier offensive catcher in the future, but nothing from last year inspires hope.

[Emmz]

Salty had the 14th highest OPS (out of 27) among catchers with 300+ PAs. He's an average catcher. Why do you continue to say he's s*****?

 

Read the thread. Don't be lazy.

[Emmz]

Or projections?

 

Sabermetric projections are evidence? Lawl.

[a700hitter]

Salty is adequate at best. His defense stinks. Too many throws into CF. His release is almost as slo as the 40 year old Varitek's release. He can't catch the ball. Wakefield is not to blame for all of his passed balls. He doesn't block balls well. He's no Varitek catching the ball and blocking the plate. Varitek's weakness was his throwing release which became glaring over the last few seasons. Other than that, he did everything very well behind the plate, and I never saw a catcher block the plate better. His left leg was like a concrete pillar. Salty doesn't do anything well behind the plate, and the jury is still out on how he handles the pitching staff.

 

As for his hitting, he hits like a catcher. It's a weak pool. My fear this season (to connect up with the topic of this thread) is that he will not improve offensively in 2012 and Ortiz will not see any pitches because of it. With the bottom of the Sox order, someone needs to step up or pitchers will pitch around Ortiz from day 1. They'd have to be idiots to let Ortiz hurt them with Salty, Aviles, Sweeney, and Ross hitting behind him.

[mvp 78]

With Shoppach hitting lefties, I don't see how Salty's production (or lack thereof) would affect pitches thrown to Ortiz, since he won't directly follow him in the lineup.

[jacksonianmarch]

Salty had the 14th highest OPS (out of 27) among catchers with 300+ PAs. He's an average catcher. Why do you continue to say he's s*****?

 

He's average offensively and below average defensively. His aggregate is below average.

[a700hitter]

With Shoppach hitting lefties' date=' I don't see how Salty's production (or lack thereof) would affect pitches thrown to Ortiz, since he won't directly follow him in the lineup.[/quote']Who will hit after Ortiz? Someone needs to step up. I am hoping it will be Salty, because the rest of the bottom of the order will not scare any pitchers.

[mvp 78]

True' date=' not tough to improve on that. \o/[/quote']

 

Which was the point I was getting at. I think he can be a little more consistent this year. If he's just a little less "sucky," it's an improvement.

 

He's not going to carry the team, but I don't think he'll drag the team down either.

[Emmz]

He's average offensively and below average defensively. His aggregate is below average.

 

To me, nothing special equates to moderate shittyness. I'm not sold on the bat yet either. We'll see, but average is still s*****, but it's a subjective term.

[mvp 78]

Who will hit after Ortiz? Someone needs to step up. I am hoping it will be Salty' date=' because the rest of the bottom of the order will not scare any pitchers.[/quote']

 

A RH bat like Ross, Aviles, or Shoppach.

[User Name]

He's average offensively and below average defensively. His aggregate is below average.

 

He improved last year on the defensive end. Besides, what's the logic behind this aggregate? How below average defensively is he compared to how above average he is offensively?

[Emmz]

Which was the point I was getting at. I think he can be a little more consistent this year. If he's just a little less "sucky," it's an improvement.

 

He's not going to carry the team, but I don't think he'll drag the team down either.

 

I agree. And he is young, he can get better. He used to be a top prospect, so we'll see, he might still have potential, and hitting like that means that the capability is there. I hope so.

[Bellhorn04]

Shoppach's overall offensive numbers, needless to say, are very s*****.