Sox and Ortiz Settle at Mid-Point

[User Name]

That would be only graceful end for everybody concerned. They thank the RS for the ( questionable---my word) offer of ST' date=' but do not show up as they are both retiring. If either show up in FL, the ending will be unpleasant...something no fan would really want to see after what both men have given to the team[/quote']

 

That's the whole point of all this. If they both retire (and at least one of them likely will) they're not on the club and the Red Sox don't take a PR hit. If they suck at ST and are forced into retirement, then it's clear they can't play anymore and the Sox don't take a PR hit.

 

The only scenario where the Red Sox do get screwed happens if they show up to ST and light the world on fire. What are the chances of that?

[Palodios]

This arbitration case has turned into a complete disaster. I was okay with 10 million, maybe even 12-13 million, but 14.5 million is far more than he was worth.

 

That money could have been spent on much better things. 6 million for Scutaro and 9 million for Jackson or Kuroda or Oswalt. Or 15 million straight into Buerhle. Or put A-Ram at 3B and let Youkilis/Lavarnway DH. Or more relief pitching to take the strain off an overburdened bullpen. Or putting it towards an Ellsbury extension. Hell, I'd take Jon Garland, Dan Wheeler and Scutaro over Ortiz.

 

That was a Yankee move. Bid against yourself and overpay a guy out of loyalty.... when the guy openly talked about disloyalty and joining the scumbag Yankees.

[jacksonianmarch]

Spitball, I think teams are also learning that having flexibility in that spot is more important than having a full time mediocre DH. Teams are now using it to rest their sluggers and get more mileage out of them. Instead of the sox who use Papi 100% of the time while playing vs the AL, most teams now have a guy who plays maybe 50% as DH and the rest of the games, the position players get a rest

[User Name]

Funny, because 15 million for Buehrle would have been overpaying.

 

In essence, the Ortiz thing isn't what has interfered with getting another pitcher. They've been playing hardball because they so desire. Look at the reports saying money is no longer a problem.

 

Time to stop using Ortiz as a scapegoat.

[Bellhorn04]

Reported use of HGH or other performance enhancers would not be a complete surprise.

 

The only thing that improves with age is wine and even that is not a sure thing.

 

Some hitters have continued to rake into their late thirties. It's certainly not the norm but there have been exceptions.

[Palodios]

Funny, because 15 million for Buehrle would have been overpaying.

 

In essence, the Ortiz thing isn't what has interfered with getting another pitcher. They've been playing hardball because they so desire. Look at the reports saying money is no longer a problem.

 

Time to stop using Ortiz as a scapegoat.

 

If money isn't a problem, why trade Scutaro? Answer that question, and it will prove you right. Ortiz had a 4.2 WAR last year, and Scutaro had a 2.9 WAR.

 

9 million dollars to find 1.3 wins somewhere seems like a very easy task to me.

[Bellhorn04]

This arbitration case has turned into a complete disaster. I was okay with 10 million, maybe even 12-13 million, but 14.5 million is far more than he was worth.

 

That money could have been spent on much better things. 6 million for Scutaro and 9 million for Jackson or Kuroda or Oswalt. Or 15 million straight into Buerhle. Or put A-Ram at 3B and let Youkilis/Lavarnway DH. Or more relief pitching to take the strain off an overburdened bullpen. Or putting it towards an Ellsbury extension. Hell, I'd take Jon Garland, Dan Wheeler and Scutaro over Ortiz.

 

That was a Yankee move. Bid against yourself and overpay a guy out of loyalty.... when the guy openly talked about disloyalty and joining the scumbag Yankees.

 

When I think of Yankee overpays, I think of a lot more than a few million dollars total.

[User Name]

If money isn't a problem, why trade Scutaro? Answer that question, and it will prove you right. Ortiz had a 4.2 WAR last year, and Scutaro had a 2.9 WAR.

 

9 million dollars to find 1.3 wins somewhere seems like a very easy task to me.

 

What i'm saying is that if, as reported, they are over the cap, then trading Scutaro makes no sense and Ortiz' arb shouldn't be a problem.

 

If they're under it, they f***ed up either way, but this is not on the Ortiz arb deal. They could have kept him and still added a pitcher if reports are to be believed.

 

Also, i don't understand your point using WAR here. What do you mean exactly?

[Bellhorn04]

If money isn't a problem, why trade Scutaro? Answer that question, and it will prove you right. Ortiz had a 4.2 WAR last year, and Scutaro had a 2.9 WAR.

 

9 million dollars to find 1.3 wins somewhere seems like a very easy task to me.

 

It's a valid question about Scutaro, no doubt. I don't think we're going to get an answer. In my opinion they set a budget ceiling (one which is above the LT threshold) and calculated that they would have to move Scutaro in order to sign Oswalt or whoever. But I agree that moving Scutaro could turn out to be an unwise decision for this year's team.

[Spitball]

Spitball' date=' I think teams are also learning that having flexibility in that spot is more important than having a full time mediocre DH. Teams are now using it to rest their sluggers and get more mileage out of them. Instead of the sox who use Papi 100% of the time while playing vs the AL, most teams now have a guy who plays maybe 50% as DH and the rest of the games, the position players get a rest[/quote']

 

I agree and that is why offense only guys like Guerrero, Damon, and Ibanez are still unsigned. It is also why I wouldn't want the Sox to go two years with Ortiz at this point.

 

But, until Ortiz proves he is too old, his production in the line-up (.950 OPS) would be almost impossible to replace.

[Palodios]

What i'm saying is that if, as reported, they are over the cap, then trading Scutaro makes no sense and Ortiz' arb shouldn't be a problem.

 

If they're under it, they f***ed up either way, but this is not on the Ortiz arb deal. They could have kept him and still added a pitcher if reports are to be believed.

 

Also, i don't understand your point using WAR here. What do you mean exactly?

 

They were always going to be over the cap. I'm not sure why you were so convinced they wanted to stay beneath it.

 

My point is that the 15 million paid for Ortiz could have been used in other ways to build their team. My favorite options include holding onto your starting shortstop or signing a pitcher who can pitch deep into a game.

[User Name]

They were always going to be over the cap. I'm not sure why you were so convinced they wanted to stay beneath it.

 

Not according to several people, including several sportswriters. No one could be convinced of it either way. We don't even know if they'll be over it for sure yet. They could dump salary if things go South. Let's not act like we know their thinking, because honestly, who knows what's the direction they're going. They're all over the place.

 

My point is that the 15 million paid for Ortiz could have been used in other ways to build their team. My favorite options include holding onto your starting shortstop or signing a pitcher who can pitch deep into a game.

 

If they were going over the cap anyway, as you are now so convinced they would, then this makes no sense.

 

They should have blown it. Sign Ortiz, keep Scutaro and sign the pitcher.

[User Name]

I agree and that is why offense only guys like Guerrero, Damon, and Ibanez are still unsigned. It is also why I wouldn't want the Sox to go two years with Ortiz at this point.

 

But, until Ortiz proves he is too old, his production in the line-up (.950 OPS) would be almost impossible to replace.

 

This is a very good point. It's easy to say "Let Ortiz go and go with a platoon at DH or something". But a .900+ OPS is hard to replace.

[Muggah]

Reported use of HGH or other performance enhancers would not be a complete surprise.

 

The only thing that improves with age is wine and even that is not a sure thing.

 

He got away with it once. Why wouldn't he do it again?

[Palodios]

Not according to several people' date='[b'] including several sportswriters[/b]. No one could be convinced of it either way. We don't even know if they'll be over it for sure yet. They could dump salary if things go South. Let's not act like we know their thinking, because honestly, who knows what's the direction they're going. They're all over the place.[/Quote]

 

Enough said.

 

 

If they were going over the cap anyway, as you are now so convinced they would, then this makes no sense.

 

They should have blown it. Sign Ortiz, keep Scutaro and sign the pitcher.

 

Teams have budgets! Just because they have the money to go over the cap doesn't mean they have the money to blow the cap. 5 million over the cap will cost them 7 million. 10 million over will cost them 14 million. They likely have the money to spend the 7 million, but the 14 million could be too much.

[Bellhorn04]

He got away with it once. Why wouldn't he do it again?

 

Actual testing and the example of Manny are two reasons I can think of.

[Palodios]

Not according to several people, including several sportswriters. No one could be convinced of it either way. We don't even know if they'll be over it for sure yet. They could dump salary if things go South. Let's not act like we know their thinking, because honestly, who knows what's the direction they're going. They're all over the place.

 

From the horse's mouth:http://boston.sbnation.com/boston-red-sox/2012/2/10/2790586/red-sox-president-larry-lucchino-were-going-to-fly-by-the-luxury-tax

 

“Now, this year, if you want to talk specifically about 2012, we will have the highest payroll in the history of the Boston Red Sox in 2012,” Lucchino continued. “Will we eclipse the luxury tax threshold? To be sure, we will — once again. So I think the talk of us not spending needs to be viewed in the context of real facts and in comparisons to real dollars.”

[/Quote]

[FredLynn]

It seems pretty clear to me that the Red Sox will, unfortunately, be over the cap again. That will cramp the team next year too. But since they will be over the cap there is absolutely no reason they should not offer Oswalt what he wants to play here. It could be more than if he played elsewhere, but everyone has their price. Just plain dumb, getting rid of Scutaro then failing to address our most blatant need.

[User Name]

From the horse's mouth:http://boston.sbnation.com/boston-red-sox/2012/2/10/2790586/red-sox-president-larry-lucchino-were-going-to-fly-by-the-luxury-tax

 

That's from a couple days ago, and i'm not inclined to believe anything that comes out of Lucchino's mouth, ever. Specially in the circumstances in which he made the statement, aka defending their "penny pinching" ways.

[Bellhorn04]

User, it's a lock that the Sox are over the LT threshold. Alex Speier's numbers show we're going to be at least $190 million for LT purposes.

[User Name]

Enough said.

 

The point being that nobody actually knew. Point made.

 

 

 

Teams have budgets! Just because they have the money to go over the cap doesn't mean they have the money to blow the cap. 5 million over the cap will cost them 7 million. 10 million over will cost them 14 million. They likely have the money to spend the 7 million, but the 14 million could be too much.

 

I understand this point, but don't approve of it. After they're over the cap, a couple million will not affect their bottom line, as you imply here. A couple of million would not have been "budget breaking."

 

The true benefit of staying under the cap would have been wiping the slate clean of LT issues for the new CBA, which is much more punishing against LT offenders.

[User Name]

User' date=' it's a lock that the Sox are over the LT threshold. Alex Speier's numbers show we're going to be at least $190 million for LT purposes.[/quote']

 

I'm not saying they're not over the LT now. I'm saying at the time it was not known whether or not they would go over the LT.

[jung]

It does not matter what we think the Sox should or should not do nor what we think they can or cannot do. It only matters what the Sox actually do or do not do. It should be clear to us by now that for a multitude of reasons, some maybe tied to the LT, they have made money an issue. As such it appears that we end up with an aging slugging DH and no solid addition to the rotation and lose our everyday SS.

 

As I have said before I do not think the Ortiz arbitration decision has much to do with his projected production in 2012. All personnel decisions can be questioned on the margins anyway as in reality they are a bunch of individual decisions that go into the making of the whole. I still believe the team as a whole would have been a better team with a solid addition to the rotation (meaning better than Oswalt or Jackson), and rotating/resting players using the DH spot.

 

As for the Ortiz arbitration offer, I view it as yet another example of JH and LL and their ceaseless meddling into Baseball Operations in order to satisfy their marketing ambitions. In this case in my view, they wanted a tie to the championship years to be a part of the 100 year Fenway celebration with the potential for Ortiz production to be an added benefit.

 

So they get their marketing tool and a possible big bat for the 100 year celebration. We appear to have lost a shot at a major upgrade to the rotation, lose the opportunity to rotate/rest players using the DH spot and may have lost our everyday SS as well.

 

It does not matter if we think they should not be making money an issue this year. Whether the LT is the heart of the money related concerns or not does not change what I view at this point as an undeniable fact. They have made money an issue this year. Combine that with what I view as a penchant to put their marketing ambitions ahead of what is best for the team in instances where push comes to shove and this is the result.

[User Name]

It does not matter what we think the Sox should or should not do nor what we think they can or cannot do. It only matters what the Sox actually do or do not do. It should be clear to us by now that for a multitude of reasons, some maybe tied to the LT, they have made money an issue. As such it appears that we end up with an aging slugging DH and no solid addition to the rotation and lose our everyday SS.

 

As I have said before I do not think the Ortiz arbitration decision has much to do with his projected production in 2012. All personnel decisions can be questioned on the margins anyway as in reality they are a bunch of individual decisions that go into the making of the whole. I still believe the team as a whole would have been a better team with a solid addition to the rotation (meaning better than Oswalt or Jackson), and rotating/resting players using the DH spot.

 

As for the Ortiz arbitration offer, I view it as yet another example of JH and LL and their ceaseless meddling into Baseball Operations in order to satisfy their marketing ambitions. In this case in my view, they wanted a tie to the championship years to be a part of the 100 year Fenway celebration with the potential for Ortiz production to be an added benefit.

 

So they get their marketing tool and a possible big bat for the 100 year celebration. We loss a shot at a major upgrade to the rotation, lose the opportunity to rotate/rest players using the DH spot and may have lost our everyday SS as well.

 

It does not matter if we think they should not be making money an issue this year. Whether the LT is the heart of the money related concerns or not does not change what I view at this point as an undeniable fact. They have made money an issue this year. Combine that with what I view as a penchant to put their marketing ambitions ahead of what is best for the team in in instances where push comes to shove and this is the result.

 

I disagree with this in principle. He was one of the most productive offensive players in all of MLB last year. That is a fact. Production had to factor into the decision to bring him back, because he's still extremely productive.

[FredLynn]

I disagree with this in principle. He was one of the most productive offensive players in all of MLB last year. That is a fact. Production had to factor into the decision to bring him back' date=' because he's still extremely productive.[/quote']

 

There is a need for his offense, no doubt, but IMO the need for a quality SP was greater.

[User Name]

Could have kept Ortiz, Scutaro and signed the pitcher if they were over-cap IMO. Let's wait and see how it all plays out.

[Palodios]

I'm not saying they're not over the LT now. I'm saying at the time it was not known whether or not they would go over the LT.

 

So... which addition to the team pushed them over then? In the last month, they've essentially gone down in luxury tax cost.

[User Name]

So... which addition to the team pushed them over then? In the last month' date=' they've essentially gone down in luxury tax cost.[/quote']

 

We'd need to actually see the figures to know. I'm desperately looking for Alex Speier's numbers and can't find them. I don't think it's possible for the Red Sox to be at the 190 million mark after trading Scutaro. If they were before, after they traded him they would be only a little over the tax without exercising Lackey's option and pending the Epstein situation resolution which, if it's money, would be deducted from the LT as well.

 

All of this is a mess, i'll tell you that much.

[Bellhorn04]

We'd need to actually see the figures to know. I'm desperately looking for Alex Speier's numbers and can't find them. I don't think it's possible for the Red Sox to be at the 190 million mark after trading Scutaro. If they were before, after they traded him they would be only a little over the tax without exercising Lackey's option and pending the Epstein situation resolution which, if it's money, would be deducted from the LT as well.

 

All of this is a mess, i'll tell you that much.

 

Here is the link to Speier's numbers. It hasn't been updated since Jan. 26 but it doesn't take much work to bring it up to now.

 

http://www.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/alex-speier/2012/01/26/budget-isnt-problem-another-look-red-sox-payro

[jung]

He was one of the most productive offensive players in all of MLB last year. That is a fact. Production had to factor into the decision to bring him back, because he's still extremely productive.

 

What is fact is that he WAS extremely productive last year. It is fact that he has the potential to be extremely productive this year.

 

On balance even given his potential to be extremely productive, I would have taken a major upgrade to the rotation with the added benefit of being able to rotate guys into the DH spot over what we appear to be getting any day of the week. In fact even before the arbitration issue came up, when this board was discussing who should come back and who should not, Ortiz many times ended up on the short end of that discussion. Granted none of us are professional baseball people but we are in the main astute observers of the game. The only reason there was so much divided opinion about whether Ortiz should be back or not is that given what appeared to already be shaping up as a year when the Sox were going to make money an issue, we were making value judgements early on about the value of an aging DH given the number of inter-league games, the need for upgrades to the team pitching staff and the desire to rest certain players that also carry big lumber but have a propensity to fade over the course of the season or have shown a propensity to injury as they have gotten older. Ortiz' penchant for becoming self-centered is also now well documented and as others have mentioned, attitude can be an issue if it has an impact on other team members. Do we have to go back any farther than last year to see how much attitude can have an impact on the team as a whole?

 

As for LL and his comments about the team payroll, that is a pretty ridiculous argument. I also would not trust LL as far as I could throw him. Most of the high payroll the Sox have is based on decisions made in previous years. If anything those decisions made in previous years appear to be driving this year's austerity program more than anything else.