Sox and Ortiz Settle at Mid-Point

[Bellhorn04]

Why wouldn't he play for his next contract? If he plays like s***' date=' no one's going to give him s***.[/b'] And yeah, the same goes for everyone in their late 30s, the question about whether they produce or not. Thats why its a 1 year deal.

 

Plainly spoken.

[iortiz]

So' date=' he'll only be overpaid by $4-5 million.[/quote']

 

Well, now we know where Scu's money ended up.

[FredLynn]

Plainly spoken.

 

I disagree. If he plays like s***, s*** is exactly what everyone will give him.

[Bellhorn04]

So the answer to the question 'who was the last Sox player to go to arbitration?' will still be Rolando Arrojo.

[seabeachfred]

Fred, how are Wakefield and Varitek "embedded" in the team if they are free agents? That makes absolutely no sense.

 

As for Ortiz, who cares if he whines if he keeps producing. He was the 8th most productive hitter in baseball last year. Would you rather he be replaced with a s***** alternative that keeps his mouth shut?

 

All of these psychological examinations of players are ridiculous. Who gives a s*** how much they whine if they produce? Ortiz produces.

 

User, don't you get it? Lucchino has issued invitations to both has-beens to come to Spring Training even though Valentine says he doesn't expect them there and doesn't think they will make the team. Why were they given invitations in the first place. That is why I suggested to MVP that FA or not they should have been given written releases from the Red Sox last October so that this debacle wouldn't happen. I have repeatedly predicted that they were NOT through with the Red Sox, that they WOULD be invited to ST, and I also predict that if they do come, which I predict THEY WILL, pressure will be put on Valentine to put them on the team. Their appearance at Fort Myers is only one of many distractions we don't need. Those two stink, they are through, no one has offered them a contract and yet Lucchino invites them to ST?

 

As for Diva, our team right now is very fragile in the morale department given the miserable last season collapse and the uncovering of what went on in the clubhouse during games last season. Team unity is a must if this team is not going to unravel again and it is encumbent on Diva to go out there and produce and keep his damn mouth shut, something he has not done the last couple of years in the latter department.

[seabeachfred]

He didn't know last year about the lack of the multi-year deal. He wanted it--he wanted an extension of the contract. All they did was pick up the option. This year was the actual contract renewal year.....and they blatently gave him just the one year. Will he play hard again to get somebody to pick him up?? Will he continue to have the skills to produce?

 

Lots of questions, but the 14 million dollar man did take the RS FO for a ride this year.

 

Diva can take comfort about next year seeing how the front office is already hedging on letting has-beens Varitek and Wakefield go. Once those two bums come to ST on those invites Lucchino sent out all bets are off on Ortiz in 2013. Henry has shown his complete incomeptence in letting go and moving on with some of his sacred cows, and he he can't let worthless bums like Varitek and Wakefield go, how the hell is he going to bring himself to say goodbye to Big Prima Donna after this season?

[User Name]

User' date=' don't you get it? Lucchino has issued invitations to both has-beens to come to Spring Training even though Valentine says he doesn't expect them there and doesn't think they will make the team. Why were they given invitations in the first place. That is why I suggested to MVP that FA or not they should have been given written releases from the Red Sox last October so that this debacle wouldn't happen. I have repeatedly predicted that they were NOT through with the Red Sox, that they WOULD be invited to ST, and I also predict that if they do come, which I predict THEY WILL, pressure will be put on Valentine to put them on the team. Their appearance at Fort Myers is only one of many distractions we don't need. Those two stink, they are through, no one has offered them a contract and yet Lucchino invites them to ST?[/quote']

 

Fred, do you know what an invite to ST means? It means jack s***. You're making a big deal out of this like they're part of the active roster. It is absolutely ridiculous.

 

If someone here is not getting it it's you. You invite s***-piles like Justin Germano to ST and it is absolutely no guarantee that they will make the club. None. I just don't know in what language this needs to be said.

 

As for Diva, our team right now is very fragile in the morale department given the miserable last season collapse and the uncovering of what went on in the clubhouse during games last season. Team unity is a must if this team is not going to unravel again and it is encumbent on Diva to go out there and produce and keep his damn mouth shut, something he has not done the last couple of years in the latter department.

 

Overstating, to say the least.

[VA Sox Fan]

Who is Diva?

 

Interesting post from Peter Abraham in today's Globe regarding Big Papi, David Ortiz:

 

Some readers, at least based on the comments on Nick's post from earlier today, are angry at David Ortiz for getting $14.575 million from the Red Sox.

 

That anger is misdirected. The Red Sox offered Ortiz arbitration and he accepted it. At that point he was a signed player and it would be at a rate higher than the $12.5 million he received last season.

 

All Ortiz did was accept the offer and then instruct his agent to negotiate on his behalf. If you believe he's being paid too much, blame the team. The player simply accepted what was offered to him because that was in his best interests.

 

Beyond that, here is what Ortiz made in his first five seasons with the Sox:

 

2003: $1.25 million

2004: $4.58 million

2005: $5.25 million

2006: $6.5 million

2007: $12.5 million

 

All he did in those five years was hit .302/.402/.612 with 208 home runs and 642 RBIs. Ortiz may prove to be overpaid in 2012 as a DH. But he was dramatically underpaid for a much longer period of time.

[Muggah]

Fred, do you know what an invite to ST means? It means jack s***. You're making a big deal out of this like they're part of the active roster. It is absolutely ridiculous.

 

If someone here is not getting it it's you. You invite s***-piles like Justin Germano to ST and it is absolutely no guarantee that they will make the club. None. I just don't know in what language this needs to be said.

 

 

 

Overstating, to say the least.

 

 

I think you're over-simplifying things a bit. And I believe this is why Valentine has made the statements he has about not 'imagining' a role for these two has-beens. We're not dealing with MENSA candidates here, and all it's really going to take for Beckett to start strong-arming ownership to reinstate Varitek as his personal caddie is simply Jason's presence in camp. If you recall, Tito went out of his way at the beginning of camp last year to inform us all that Josh's days of hand picking his own catcher were over. A short time later Tito was before the cameras playing the fool because Josh had gone over his head and gotten his way.

 

The vey same result is likely to take place if Varitek even shows up in camp. In fact, I'm not going to be surprised to see them move Shoppach if he shows up and his 'boys' in the rotation start lobbying Prune Face for his return. That's going to be a touch position for Valentine to be in, and a horrible way to start both camp and the season. So while I hope you're right, there's precedent for the thing to become a major distraction.

[Spitball]

Who is Diva?

 

Interesting post from Peter Abraham in today's Globe regarding Big Papi, David Ortiz:

 

Some readers, at least based on the comments on Nick's post from earlier today, are angry at David Ortiz for getting $14.575 million from the Red Sox.

 

That anger is misdirected. The Red Sox offered Ortiz arbitration and he accepted it. At that point he was a signed player and it would be at a rate higher than the $12.5 million he received last season.

 

All Ortiz did was accept the offer and then instruct his agent to negotiate on his behalf. If you believe he's being paid too much, blame the team. The player simply accepted what was offered to him because that was in his best interests.

 

Beyond that, here is what Ortiz made in his first five seasons with the Sox:

 

2003: $1.25 million

2004: $4.58 million

2005: $5.25 million

2006: $6.5 million

2007: $12.5 million

 

All he did in those five years was hit .302/.402/.612 with 208 home runs and 642 RBIs. Ortiz may prove to be overpaid in 2012 as a DH. But he was dramatically underpaid for a much longer period of time.

 

This pretty much says it all. The results of arbitration were understood by both parties going in. There should not be any unhappy parties.

[seabeachfred]

Fred, do you know what an invite to ST means? It means jack s***. You're making a big deal out of this like they're part of the active roster. It is absolutely ridiculous.

 

If someone here is not getting it it's you. You invite s***-piles like Justin Germano to ST and it is absolutely no guarantee that they will make the club. None. I just don't know in what language this needs to be said.

 

 

 

Overstating, to say the least.

 

Well User, I hope you are absolutely correct and I'm as wrong as I can possibly be. In fact, being the agitator and sometimes pain in the ass that you can be, you can have carte blanche to climb all over my ass if it turns out you called it right. I'm just worried it might not turn out your way. Let me also be honest with you and everyone else. Yes, the last two or three seasons I have come to really be bugged by these two players. Wakefield has been pretty useless for the past two and a half years and Varitek has been in the game three years too long thanks to the Red Sox. If they hadn't signed him twice since 2008 he would have been out of baseball since he got zero offers from other teams.

 

Here's a stat for you. Are you aware that Varitek came up last September 11 times with the bases loaded? Know how many runs he g ot in? ZILCH!!!!!!. No hits and eight strikeouts. No, he and his pitching partner need to go so I am hoping you are right.

[User Name]

Varitek has always been awful with the bases loaded. He could still be an asset for half-a-season. The one who's really done is Wakefield.

 

As for your earlier post, it still stands. There is no over-simplification, An ST invite means nothing. You've all been singing the praises for Valentine since he got hired, but he wouldn't have the balls to cut them (that is, if they show up)? Please.

[jung]

What Ortiz got paid for his performance between 2003-2007 is not relevant. The Sox picked him up when nobody really wanted to pay him anything. So you could argue that the Sox made a very good move that did in fact benefit both parties.

 

I do think the arbitration process is a disgrace. Treating a guy his age like the clock has no meaning is ridiculous. Granted the Sox backed themselves into this corner by offering Ortiz arbitration which they never should have done in the first place.

 

Having to give up $2M to him out of fear that the knuckle-headed arbitration process would have rewarded him another $2M on top of that for a total $16.5M is the only disappointment. Frankly I wish they had gone through the arbitration process and can only hope the outcome would have been $12.5 instead of $16.5M.

 

The new CBA does make it more difficult for players to extract such large sums of money in arbitration but Ortiz would have been a good test of whether there is any real balance in this process or if it is just a sham. Since going through the process can only yield one of two results, any arbiters that could believe that $16.5 was closer to Ortiz true value than $12.5 should have gone from the arbitration hearing directly to protective custody until a sanity hearing could have been conducted.

[VA Sox Fan]

Varitek has always been awful with the bases loaded. He could still be an asset for half-a-season. The one who's really done is Wakefield.

 

As for your earlier post, it still stands. There is no over-simplification, An ST invite means nothing. You've all been singing the praises for Valentine since he got hired, but he wouldn't have the balls to cut them (that is, if they show up)? Please.

 

Not when I saw him hit a Grand Slam at Fenway against the O's in May 2006

 

jk. Historically not good at all. But was psyched for the game I was at!!

[ibot2much]

You invite s*** piles to ST and it DOES mean nothing. If you invite 2 over the hill guys who have been a huge part of a club for years and it does mean something....... and that something should not have been done.

 

How do you compare a nobody with no relationship to a team with a somebody who will always be associated with the team? The two invites are apples and oranges. In the first case, the guy is sent home and it means nothing; in the second case, what do you do with the guy once he is there. Tell him that he can play in Boston?..... in Pawtucket? How do you make the break in ST that should have been made last fall.

[jacksonianmarch]

2 yrs, $16 mil on the open market would have worked. Stupid of them to offer arb and force their hand. Now, they'd be paying almost $15 mil for one season instead of a little more for 2. I guess the next question is, should Papi have a good season, do they offer him arb again? One wonders if Cherington would make the same mistake twice

[User Name]

So how do you suggest the Red Sox deal with the situation? It's stupid to think they were just going to cut ties with the both of them precisely for the reasons you mention.

 

You invite them to ST and you give yourself a triple-safety blanket: Not only is there a possibility they don't show up, if they do and suck, you can cut them and not regret it, and if they look good you still have no responsibility towards them.

 

Let's be realistic here, the ST invite doesn't tie up the Sox in any shape, way or form.

[User Name]

2 yrs' date=' $16 mil on the open market would have worked. Stupid of them to offer arb and force their hand. Now, they'd be paying almost $15 mil for one season instead of a little more for 2. I guess the next question is, should Papi have a good season, do they offer him arb again? One wonders if Cherington would make the same mistake twice[/quote']

 

They offered him that before offering arb, he declined. Look it up in MLBTR. Check your facts beforehand.

[Muggah]

You invite s*** piles to ST and it DOES mean nothing. If you invite 2 over the hill guys who have been a huge part of a club for years and it does mean something....... and that something should not have been done.

 

How do you compare a nobody with no relationship to a team with a somebody who will always be associated with the team? The two invites are apples and oranges. In the first case, the guy is sent home and it means nothing; in the second case, what do you do with the guy once he is there. Tell him that he can play in Boston?..... in Pawtucket? How do you make the break in ST that should have been made last fall.

 

Spot on.

[redsoxrules]

If Ortiz can replicate his numbers from last season then If fine with the deal but thats a big IF at this point.

I thought Ortiz was done a few years ago and he came back strong so who knows what next year brings

[jung]

who knows what next year brings

 

Reported use of HGH or other performance enhancers would not be a complete surprise.

 

The only thing that improves with age is wine and even that is not a sure thing.

[jacksonianmarch]

They offered him that before offering arb' date=' he declined. Look it up in MLBTR. Check your facts beforehand.[/quote']

 

I know. But I doubt someone else beats that on the market. Decline arb, offer 2yrs $16 mil and wait for him to link back

[VA Sox Fan]

Reported use of HGH or other performance enhancers would not be a complete surprise.

The only thing that improves with age is wine and even that is not a sure thing.

 

So you really think he'd make that mistake again? He's not Manny.

[FredLynn]

You invite s*** piles to ST and it DOES mean nothing. If you invite 2 over the hill guys who have been a huge part of a club for years and it does mean something....... and that something should not have been done.

 

How do you compare a nobody with no relationship to a team with a somebody who will always be associated with the team? The two invites are apples and oranges. In the first case, the guy is sent home and it means nothing; in the second case, what do you do with the guy once he is there. Tell him that he can play in Boston?..... in Pawtucket? How do you make the break in ST that should have been made last fall.

 

I agree with you: those two has-beens should have been handed their walking papers. Now we are getting into this ambiguous gray area where they will need to be discharged and disgraced after failing to make the club. Its not being handled properly.

[VA Sox Fan]

I agree with you: those two has-beens should have been handed their walking papers. Now we are getting into this ambiguous gray area where they will need to be discharged and disgraced after failing to make the club. Its not being handled properly.

 

They could both still choose retirement.

[FredLynn]

They could both still choose retirement.

 

I thought Wakefield was supposed to make a decision about that this past weekend (?). Retirement would be the most graceful thing to do, but both have commented on their desire to play more baseball. Seems the only people on earth who don't think they are finished are Wakefield and Varitek.

[VA Sox Fan]

I thought Wakefield was supposed to make a decision about that this past weekend (?). Retirement would be the most graceful thing to do' date=' but both have commented on their desire to play more baseball. Seems the only people on earth who don't think they are finished are Wakefield and Varitek.[/quote']

 

I have a lot of respect for both them, but I agree they should retire. The report day is Sunday, time will tell.

[FredLynn]

I have a lot of respect for both them' date=' but I agree they should retire. The report day is Sunday, time will tell.[/quote']

 

Both had great careers for the team; they both worked their butts off for the franchise. I appreciate their contributions, but its really time for them to retire. When they do, they will find that retired life isn't really all that bad, as I have discovered.

[ibot2much]

That would be only graceful end for everybody concerned. They thank the RS for the ( questionable---my word) offer of ST, but do not show up as they are both retiring. If either show up in FL, the ending will be unpleasant...something no fan would really want to see after what both men have given to the team

[Spitball]

In the last two years, Ortiz has averaged 30 HR and 99 RbIs while OPSing over .900. His production has been excellent and improving from his 2009 slump. By cutting his K totals by an amazing 62, I think it is safe to conclude he has learned to make adjustments to his approach.

 

Arbitration was not a definite mistake on either side. Players like Ryan Madson and teams like the Cardinals learned that there are no real gaurantees or loyalties to count on.

 

That said, with Otiz's age, I wouldn't want the Sox to go multi-year with him.