Red Sox to send Scutaro to the Rockies

[iortiz]

I am not pleased with this deal. I like Aviles as a SS, and his stats seem to indicate that SS is his best defensive position.... but then who plays LF? The bench, and bench depth are very weak, and Iggy will not be ready until 2013.

 

They traded Yamaico Navarro for junk last year, and traded Lowrie and Scutaro this offseason. Is there a plan at SS? Unless Ben has some masterplan here, I have a hard time defending the Ortiz move now. Seriously, what were they thinking here?

 

Balance.

 

All sings say that the SP is coming. Yes, You won't have the same production with Aviles/Punto but I see them batting combined something around 260. On the other hand, you will have a legit #2-3 (if healthy) taking the #4 hole in the rotation.

[BOSOX11]

Damn! The Guardians just signed Julio Lugo. There's another upgrade for SS gone out the window...

[Station 13]

Damn! The Guardians just signed Julio Lugo. There's another upgrade for SS gone out the window...

 

surely you jest.

[jacksonianmarch]

I am not pleased with this deal. I like Aviles as a SS, and his stats seem to indicate that SS is his best defensive position.... but then who plays LF? The bench, and bench depth are very weak, and Iggy will not be ready until 2013.

 

They traded Yamaico Navarro for junk last year, and traded Lowrie and Scutaro this offseason. Is there a plan at SS? Unless Ben has some masterplan here, I have a hard time defending the Ortiz move now. Seriously, what were they thinking here?

 

IIRC, they traded Navarro for Aviles

[Palodios]

IIRC' date=' they traded Navarro for Aviles[/quote']

 

Oh? I don't remember that. At the time, Aviles seemed washed up

Nevermind, I think that deal was fine.

[mvp 78]

A) The whole "Everyone but Cherington knew he would accept" line is ridiculous.

 

B ) It has been publicly denied several times that the Red Sox offered Varitek or Wakefield any type of contract. Including your beloved Bobby V.

 

Really bro. Stop it.

 

He can't help himself.

[seabeachfred]

A) The whole "Everyone but Cherington knew he would accept" line is ridiculous.

 

B ) It has been publicly denied several times that the Red Sox offered Varitek or Wakefield any type of contract. Including your beloved Bobby V.

 

Really bro. Stop it.

 

The only thing ridiculous about it is that maybe you agreed with your hero Cherries and also believed that Big Diva wouldn't accept arbitration, but I know of many here and elsewhere who were convinced that he would accept it because there was no real market for a player who couldn't play defense but would cost over $12 million dollars. That was a mistake on Cherington's part pure and simple whether you and MVP want to admit it or not.

 

You also still have trouble with comprehension bub. Never was mentioned CONTRACT when the names Varitek and Wakefield came up. What was mentioned was that Cherington DID offer the catcher an invitation to Spring Training as a non-roster player only to backtrack and said that wasn't completely accurate, whatever the hell that means. He said it only after "my beloved BV" said he couldn't envision Jason coming to ST under those circumstances.......BUT THE INVITATION STILL STANDS!!!!!!!!!!

 

Unlike the classy Jorge Posada who saw the handwriting on the wall and decided to retire I have my doubts that Varitek would pass up a chance t o go to ST and lobby the pitchers who love to throw to him. If it does it means another distraction for a team that doesn't need any after their historic choke last September.

[Palodios]

The only thing ridiculous about it is that maybe you agreed with your hero Cherries and also believed that Big Diva wouldn't accept arbitration, but I know of many here and elsewhere who were convinced that he would accept it because there was no real market for a player who couldn't play defense but would cost over $12 million dollars. That was a mistake on Cherington's part pure and simple whether you and MVP want to admit it or not.

 

You also still have trouble with comprehension bub. Never was mentioned CONTRACT when the names Varitek and Wakefield came up. What was mentioned was that Cherington DID offer the catcher an invitation to Spring Training as a non-roster player only to backtrack and said that wasn't completely accurate, whatever the hell that means. He said it only after "my beloved BV" said he couldn't envision Jason coming to ST under those circumstances.......BUT THE INVITATION STILL STANDS!!!!!!!!!!

 

Unlike the classy Jorge Posada who saw the handwriting on the wall and decided to retire I have my doubts that Varitek would pass up a chance t o go to ST and lobby the pitchers who love to throw to him. If it does it means another distraction for a team that doesn't need any after their historic choke last September.

 

Varitek accepted a position as a backup catcher gracefully. He knows his knees are shot. Wakefield is the arrogant one who still is determined to play-- Varitek has handled the situation fine, he's a 40 year old catcher, and he knows exactly what that means in the MLB.

[RiceLynnEvans]

Don't like the move simply because THERE'S NO SS! Your defensive strengths are up the middle with the SS the keystone to the entire infield....now Scutaro was no Ozzie but he handled the position at an average keel and hit fairly well. If you're shredding salary, then why sign Nick Punto? Why keep Darnell? Why a third catcher? Why the handful of Cooks, Padillas and such? PUNTO SUCKS. I like Aviles in Jed's old role but who's at short?

 

Unless they're planning to shock us all by signing Hanley (a LONG shot, if any at all), then I don't get it.

[RiceLynnEvans]

We've just dug a hole right....and it's smack dab in the middle of the infield. WTF? Where are we going with this? If it's a salary slice, then the whole off season makes NO sense. Who's on short?

[User Name]

The only thing ridiculous about it is that maybe you agreed with your hero Cherries and also believed that Big Diva wouldn't accept arbitration' date=' but I know of many here and elsewhere who were convinced that he would accept it because there was no real market for a player who couldn't play defense but would cost over $12 million dollars. That was a mistake on Cherington's part pure and simple whether you and MVP want to admit it or not.[/quote']

 

You know of many here who THOUGHT he would accept. He had a market, but it didn't develop the way neither party intended. Stop talking like you knew this was a certainty, because you know nothing about the inside workings of this negotiations.

 

You also still have trouble with comprehension bub. Never was mentioned CONTRACT when the names Varitek and Wakefield came up. What was mentioned was that Cherington DID offer the catcher an invitation to Spring Training as a non-roster player only to backtrack and said that wasn't completely accurate, whatever the hell that means. He said it only after "my beloved BV" said he couldn't envision Jason coming to ST under those circumstances.......BUT THE INVITATION STILL STANDS!!!!!!!!!!

 

No. You have a problem with reading comprehension. Both Cherington and Valentine denied such invitation was ever formally made, and only one source reported it, meaning it was probably a reporter who jumped the gun.

 

Unlike the classy Jorge Posada who saw the handwriting on the wall and decided to retire I have my doubts that Varitek would pass up a chance t o go to ST and lobby the pitchers who love to throw to him. If it does it means another distraction for a team that doesn't need any after their historic choke last September.

 

What the f*** does this even mean? Posada retired after weighing his options to go to another team, not because he was "classy".

[ibot2much]

The word "Classy " is subjective.....how and why he decided to retire is known only to JP.....but at least he did make the decision rather quickly ( this year) ...although he did stay around one year too many.

[mvp 78]

Tek just went through a divorce. It'd be dumb for him to hang up his boots if he still thinks he has something left. It's more of a financial decision than one concerning class. Dude needs the money. Don't know why anyone would fault him for trying to hang on. My guess is we'd all do the same thing in his shoes. He'll make more earning veterans minimum than any other job he could get.

[seabeachfred]

Tek just went through a divorce. It'd be dumb for him to hang up his boots if he still thinks he has something left. It's more of a financial decision than one concerning class. Dude needs the money. Don't know why anyone would fault him for trying to hang on. My guess is we'd all do the same thing in his shoes. He'll make more earning veterans minimum than any other job he could get.

 

He signed a four year contract for I believe about $45 million in the fall of 2004; I don't think he has spent it all. He must have some money saved in the bank and in investments, but let's put that all aside. Couldn't the Red Sox in a show of good faith for all his years of contributing to the success of the Red Sox give him a job in the organization for a nice piece of change? Hell, they could even create a position for him either on the field or in the front office and it wouldn't count on that damn LT. I mean Henry has enough money that he could do that. I think those who would like to see Varitek return as a player and those like me who believe his time is up could all agree with that.

[seabeachfred]

You know of many here who THOUGHT he would accept. He had a market, but it didn't develop the way neither party intended. Stop talking like you knew this was a certainty, because you know nothing about the inside workings of this negotiations.

 

 

 

No. You have a problem with reading comprehension. Both Cherington and Valentine denied such invitation was ever formally made, and only one source reported it, meaning it was probably a reporter who jumped the gun.

 

 

 

What the f*** does this even mean? Posada retired after weighing his options to go to another team, not because he was "classy".

 

Yes I knew!!!!! Pumpsie, Elk, Muggah, Me, and I believe 700, Sox Sport and Iortiz believed he would accept arbitration. To many of us it was a no brainer. Anyone who could read the tea leaves knew no team was going to offer him the kind of money he earned last season. Remember Vlad Guerrero? That was going to be the going rate after the disastrous contract the White Sox handed out to a guy who hit under 200. So yes, I knew for a near certainty that he would accept it---and I said so right here. As for that invitation, whether it was issued as and the writer claimed or as you say not, the fact is the invitation is there for Varitek to go to ST.

 

Aside from all that though. You have become a very nasty person around here. You rail and get personal when y ou disagree with someone who disagrees with you. None of us are know it alls and that includes you. I think you would be better served without going over the edge with people you disagree with. I may make fun of Cherington, Lucchino and Henry but accept for one misguided barb at VA I have never felt the need or the urge to tear into a fellow poster on this board. You ought to do the same.

 

Now let's get on and talk Red Sox baseball, ok?

[a700hitter]

Yes I knew!!!!! Pumpsie, Elk, Muggah, Me, and I believe 700, Sox Sport and Iortiz believed he would accept arbitration. To many of us it was a no brainer. Anyone who could read the tea leaves knew no team was going to offer him the kind of money he earned last season. Remember Vlad Guerrero? That was going to be the going rate after the disastrous contract the White Sox handed out to a guy who hit under 200. So yes, I knew for a near certainty that he would accept it---and I said so right here. As for that invitation, whether it was issued as and the writer claimed or as you say not, the fact is the invitation is there for Varitek to go to ST.

 

Aside from all that though. You have become a very nasty person around here. You rail and get personal when y ou disagree with someone who disagrees with you. None of us are know it alls and that includes you. I think you would be better served without going over the edge with people you disagree with. I may make fun of Cherington, Lucchino and Henry but accept for one misguided barb at VA I have never felt the need or the urge to tear into a fellow poster on this board. You ought to do the same.

 

Now let's get on and talk Red Sox baseball, ok?

That's right Fred. Anyone can probably go back on this thread and check, but yes I thought he would have to be a fool not to accept the arbitration, and I never thought Ortiz was a fool. As long as he or his agent could do fairly simple math, it was a no-brainer that he would accept the arbitration. I really can't imagine what the FO was thinking. They make mistakes like everyone else. This was a whopper. There was no hidden strategy that has not been made public or that we are just too unsophisticated to understand. They simply blew it.

[SoxFanForsyth]

That's right Fred. Anyone can probably go back on this thread and check' date=' but yes I thought he would have to be a fool not to accept the arbitration, and I never thought Ortiz was a fool. As long as he or his agent could do fairly simple math, it was a no-brainer that he would accept the arbitration. I really can't imagine what the FO was thinking. They make mistakes like everyone else. This was a whopper. There was no hidden strategy that has not been made public or that we are just too unsophisticated to understand. They simply blew it.[/quote']

 

Here's the thing.

 

The Red Sox may actually have something up their sleeve. Ortiz may be the doofus here. Really sit down and think about it.

 

1. The Red Sox are probably willing to pay about $13.5-14mm for Ortiz this season. In this economy, and with this DH FA market, he's probably worth around $12.5mm.

 

2. By offering Ortiz arbitration, he is certain to accept, and that means he's going to play for the Sox next year.

 

3. If Ortiz came filed at around $13.5-14mm, the Sox would be able to work something out because that's around where they budgeted for him.

 

4. If Ortiz came in and filed at around $15-16mm, he would be way over his value, which means the Sox could come in at around $12.5-12.75mm, save around $1.5mm from their budgeted amount because Ortiz will not win arb with a $16mm bid, and the Sox will get him for cheaper than they would have been able to get him had they not offered arbitration.

 

So in all reality, if the Sox win arbitration, which they absolutely should, they should be in a great position to ultimately save money on the Ortiz contract.

[a700hitter]

Here's the thing.

 

The Red Sox may actually have something up their sleeve. Ortiz may be the doofus here. Really sit down and think about it.

 

1. The Red Sox are probably willing to pay about $13.5-14mm for Ortiz this season. In this economy, and with this DH FA market, he's probably worth around $12.5mm.

 

2. By offering Ortiz arbitration, he is certain to accept, and that means he's going to play for the Sox next year.

 

3. If Ortiz came filed at around $13.5-14mm, the Sox would be able to work something out because that's around where they budgeted for him.

 

4. If Ortiz came in and filed at around $15-16mm, he would be way over his value, which means the Sox could come in at around $12.5-12.75mm, save around $1.5mm from their budgeted amount because Ortiz will not win arb with a $16mm bid, and the Sox will get him for cheaper than they would have been able to get him had they not offered arbitration.

 

So in all reality, if the Sox win arbitration, which they absolutely should, they should be in a great position to ultimately save money on the Ortiz contract.

If they didn't offer him arbitration, they could have had the $12.5 to redeploy for other needs or he would have fallen into their lap at the end for $9-10 million-- more in line with his market value. BTW -- don't be surprised if he wins the arbitration.

[Palodios]

If they didn't offer him arbitration' date=' they could have had the $12.5 to redeploy for other needs or he would have fallen into their lap at the end for $9-10 million-- more in line with his market value. BTW -- don't be surprised if he wins the arbitration.[/quote']

 

So Ortiz is only worth 9-10 million, but somehow he'll win almost double that in arbitration? I don't agree with that logic. He's either worth 9 million or 16 million, not both.

[SoxFanForsyth]

If they didn't offer him arbitration' date=' they could have had the $12.5 to redeploy for other needs or he would have fallen into their lap at the end for $9-10 million-- more in line with his market value. BTW -- don't be surprised if he wins the arbitration.[/quote']

 

I'll be beyond shocked if he wins the arbitration. It would be a complete shock. $16mm?? That's ridiculous.

 

Look at all the other DH's this year:

 

Abreu: $9mm

Lind: $5mm

Dunn: $14mm

Napoli made 5.8mm last year, and filed $11.8mm this year.

 

Dunns contract is atrocious, and he can at least play a position.

 

Napoli is the best comp, and he's coming in at $11.8mm.

 

Napoli's 2011 line: .320/.414/.631, 30 HR, 75 RBI

Ortiz's 2011 line: .309/.398/.554, 29 HR, 96 RBI.

 

No chance that Ortiz is worth $16mm, and the arbitrator will not side with him.

[iortiz]

If they didn't offer him arbitration' date=' they could have had the $12.5 to redeploy for other needs[/b'] or he would have fallen into their lap at the end for $9-10 million-- more in line with his market value. BTW -- don't be surprised if he wins the arbitration.

 

We could use Lav in the DH and sign the SP.

[SoxFanForsyth]

We could use Lav in the DH and sign the SP.

 

I agree with this. We could definitely use that RH bat as well.

 

I'm not justifying that we kept Ortiz, but if we were definitely going to keep him, I don't necessarily disagree with this play after thinking about it.

[Elktonnick]

I agree with this. We could definitely use that RH bat as well.

 

I'm not justifying that we kept Ortiz, but if we were definitely going to keep him, I don't necessarily disagree with this play after thinking about it.

 

The big problem besides the money, if they sign Ortiz to a two year deal to avoid an arbitration finding is whether Ortiz can still compete at the ML level the second year never mind this year. While he had a great year last year, how much longer can he keep it up? In the post steroid era, older ballplayers go down hill quickly especially those carrying Ortiz's weight.

[iortiz]

I agree with this. We could definitely use that RH bat as well.

 

I'm not justifying that we kept Ortiz, but if we were definitely going to keep him, I don't necessarily disagree with this play after thinking about it.

 

For the record, I like Ortiz, he will produce, but our needs are pretty clear in our pitching.

 

We have discussed this over and over again.

 

1. If the strategy is stay under the cap, and we go like this (without Scutaro and without the SP) Ortiz's arbitration is unacceptable.

 

2. If we were going to end up over the cap anyway (beyond Ortiz' contract), why did we give up Scutaro.

 

Sure, I need to see how this ends in order to emit a more accurate opinion.

[a700hitter]

So Ortiz is only worth 9-10 million' date=' but somehow he'll win almost double that in arbitration? I don't agree with that logic. He's either worth 9 million or 16 million, not both.[/quote']Either way if he wins or loses arbitration, he will be getting more than he would have gotten on the open market. Unfortunately, the arbitrators don't let the actual market rule the day. They are not going to look at the fact that there are few teams (maybe a couple) that for 2012 have the need and/or the resources to pay more than $10 million for a dedicated DH. Unfortunately, they will look at his production and compare it to the contracts of other guys with similar production. They will look beyond DH's, because there are almost no good comps for production at DH. I believe that they also factor in years of service. I don't know the specifics of how they take it into consideration, but the fact that he is getting long in the tooth will not hurt him in this process. I don't like or agree with a lot of what I read about the arbitration process, but I wouldn't be surprised if he wins the award. IMO he overshot the mark with $16.5, but if the arbitrator thinks he has comps to support $15 million for a guy with a .953 OPS, Ortiz will get the $16.5 M, because his number is closer to the $15 M. Either way, win or lose, the Sox will be overpaying him. The arbitrator will not be looking at the fact that only one or 2 AL teams needed or could afford a highly paid DH for 2012. They will look at comps which doesn't represent the true market in this case.

[a700hitter]

We could use Lav in the DH and sign the SP.

Yes, and if he wasn't producing, we could have used Manny after he serves his suspension or someone else.

[SoxFanForsyth]

The big problem besides the money' date=' if they sign Ortiz to a two year deal to avoid an arbitration finding is whether Ortiz can still compete at the ML level the second year never mind this year. While he had a great year last year, how much longer can he keep it up? In the post steroid era, older ballplayers go down hill quickly especially those carrying Ortiz's weight.[/quote']

 

How many times did we hear this in 2009 and 2010??

 

And then what did he do in 2011?

 

I'm just saying, I'm not concerned about his production next year.

[SoxFanForsyth]

For the record, I like Ortiz, he will produce, but our needs are pretty clear in our pitching.

 

We have discussed this over and over again.

 

1. If the strategy is stay under the cap, and we go like this (without Scutaro and without the SP) Ortiz's arbitration is unacceptable.

 

2. If we were going to end up over the cap anyway (beyond Ortiz' contract), why did we give up Scutaro.

 

Sure, I need to see how this ends in order to emit a more accurate opinion.

 

We have no idea what they're going to do. They could very well go off and trade a bunch of prospects for HanRam and Anibal Sanchez.

 

I think Cherry has something up his sleeve, and it's going to blow some minds.

[mvp 78]

We could use Lav in the DH and sign the SP.

 

Not ready.

[a700hitter]

So Ortiz is only worth 9-10 million' date=' but somehow he'll win almost double that in arbitration? I don't agree with that logic. He's either worth 9 million or 16 million, not both.[/quote']The arbitrators don't predict new market values like falling markets for Ortiz and Oswalt. They make their decisions based on passed markets.