Valentine's Big Mouth

[VA Sox Fan]

Who called you thin skinned. I have never called you that. I have called you intolerant' date=' but that has been about the extent of it.[/quote']

 

Oh come on E1' date=' you have always preached about patience. Do really believe that Bobby V has done this ^? Let me say again that I have never been a fan of Bobby V's personality. It has always been my opinion that because he is one of the very few managers with an IQ above double digits, that he is very full of himself. However, I really don't think he has done anything wrong... yet. When he does, it will be unmistakable, probably resulting in a fine or his firing. [b'] Up until now, the only people who have criticized him have been a lot of super sensitive people raised in an ultra PC world where skins have been conditioned to be so thin that it can barely keep the human form.[/b]

 

I have criticized BV, wouldn't that group me the the "super sensitive people raised in an ultra PC world where skins have been conditioned to be so thin that it can barely keep the human form"? Or does the mean you were just joking.

 

You are also intolerant.

[Elktonnick]

As a nanager, (I am speaking generally not baseball alone) it is sometimes very appropriate to reprimand publically, sometimes it is not. It depends largely on the offense. Private disputes are usually always kept confidential. However, when any employee (including highly paid professional atheletes) commits a public offense it is appropriate to reprimand publically. It is done all the time. I have done so myself in the past and will do so in the future when it is appropriate to do so.

 

In the Red Sox case, BV opponents make not like it but it is should be obvious to everyone, the FO was not upset with BV calling out CC ( even though that is not what I think he did) Otherwise Tom Caron a NESN employee and Nick Carfado a NESN regular never would have made the comments they made including on MLB/ XM radio which has a national audience. The message is loud and clear no more coddling players. BV was hired to do what he did. Francona is gone. His way of managing is gone. BV may not last. He was hired to be fired. He probably won't last 8 years, maybe only 2. But for now this is the way it is going to be. Why, because ownership wants it this way, that's why.

[a700hitter]

I have criticized BV, wouldn't that group me the the "super sensitive people raised in an ultra PC world where skins have been conditioned to be so thin that it can barely keep the human form"? Or does the mean you were just joking.

 

You are also intolerant.

I am very tolerant. I am not telling people not to be too sensitive. I am not telling people to let go of things or trying to shut down discussion. Have at it. It's just not really worthy of such a controversy. He said. I have a call into CC and I am looking forward to talking to him. Question: Bobby, have you talked to him yet. Bobby: No, not yet. OMG, this should eliminate him from consideration as a US Ambassador. He could throw off the delicate balance of world peace with such an irresponsible remark.

[VA Sox Fan]

I am very tolerant. I am not telling people not to be too sensitive. I am not telling people to let go of things or trying to shut down discussion. Have at it. It's just not really worthy of such a controversy. He said. I have a call into CC and I am looking forward to talking to him. Question: Bobby' date=' have you talked to him yet. Bobby: No, not yet. OMG, this should eliminate him from consideration as a US Ambassador. He could throw off the delicate balance of world peace with such an irresponsible remark.[/quote']

 

Tolerant people don't put other people on ignore.

 

At any rate... Have a Happy New Year. I hope your 2012 is better than your 2011. I know I'm hoping for the same myself.

[a700hitter]

Tolerant people don't put other people on ignore.

 

At any rate... Have a Happy New Year. I hope your 2012 is better than your 2011. I know I'm hoping for the same myself.

I have one poster on ignore-- Dutchy's offspring. If you saw the harassing, intimidating and obnoxious pm's from the guy, you might understand.

 

BTW, ignoring someone instead of fighting with them is not intolerance. He can say whatever he likes, and like a coward, I am sure that he potshots me on a regular basis even though he knows that I will not engage with him. Telling someone to shut up or to stop arguing their position is intolerant. Maybe you didn't understand the term?

[User Name]

For the record, i've never sent the above dumb-ass a PM. Carry on.

[a700hitter]

At any rate... Have a Happy New Year. I hope your 2012 is better than your 2011. I know I'm hoping for the same myself.

Happy New Year to you too.

[ibot2much]

To return to the topic at hand.....if BV's words were so egregious, then the Players Association would be concerned about making Beckett and CC feel bad and would publicly chastize BV for this behavior.

 

 

They weren't so they didn't. ( figure out your own antecedents for the pronouns)

[VA Sox Fan]

I believe you Username? I would have quoted you but you know....

[example1]

As a nanager' date=' (I am speaking generally not baseball alone) it is sometimes very appropriate to reprimand publically, sometimes it is not. It depends largely on the offense. Private disputes are usually always kept confidential. However, when any employee (including highly paid professional atheletes) commits a public offense it is appropriate to reprimand publically. It is done all the time. I have done so myself in the past and will do so in the future when it is appropriate to do so. [/quote']

 

I think it would be a good approach to not say anything about Carl Crawford at all, certainly not until he has talked to the guy. I realize all of the above tactics are tools that can be used, but I think using them before you're actually managing the guy is pretty weak sauce.

 

In the Red Sox case, BV opponents make not like it but it is should be obvious to everyone, the FO was not upset with BV calling out CC ( even though that is not what I think he did) Otherwise Tom Caron a NESN employee and Nick Carfado a NESN regular never would have made the comments they made including on MLB/ XM radio which has a national audience. The message is loud and clear no more coddling players. BV was hired to do what he did. Francona is gone. His way of managing is gone. BV may not last. He was hired to be fired. He probably won't last 8 years, maybe only 2. But for now this is the way it is going to be. Why, because ownership wants it this way, that's why.

 

I wouldn't say I'm a BV opponent. Not at all. I'm open to his way. I just find it frustrating that before the season has even started he has led the media to question Crawford's character and spilled some details about his conversation with Beckett. When a conversation is supposed to be private it is poor form to note that Beckett was pissed off at him. Perhaps that wouldn't have lost trust with you guys (if you were Beckett) but it would have with me. If I agree to keep a conversation private the whole thing will be private. I'm not going to discuss the tenor of the discussion or the subjects or anything.

 

As for being hired to be fired, I hope that's not the case. Being fired assumes failure and I hope they didn't plan to have failure in the next two years. That should be acceptable to no one. If this is ownership just making a point, they should find a better way.

[FredLynn]

I suspect you are right. I don't think that Bobby V is going to be all about public accountability the way Pumpsie seems to think he will. I'm hopeful he is either off to a bad start or firing a shot or two across the bow to make the players think he's a loose cannon.

 

I really don't care what his tactics are as long as he succeeds in making that a more professional team. Whatever else Bobby V is, he is smart. I suspect he is in the warning shot stage, but would be willing to escalate if need be. I watched what happened last year, and I watched the last three years in which we failed to win a single playoff game. Now some of that is due to factors beyond anyone's control, but some of it is due to the MEFIRSTS on the team. Wakefield is a prime example. The nerve that selfish fool has to say that the fans "deserve to see me go for the record". We are back in the 25 players/25 cabs stage. I think Valentine is going to fix that before he wears out his welcome, which he is likely to do in a couple of years. I don't think you will ever see John Lackey staring down his new manager from the mound the way he disrespected Francona.

[FredLynn]

It's really not that bad.:dunno:

 

No, its actually spot on. Good tactics. I expect that it will put a bug in Beckett's butt and generate capitulation on Crawford's part. They will realize that the Country Club in no more. Its all business now.

[FredLynn]

I have criticized BV, wouldn't that group me the the "super sensitive people raised in an ultra PC world where skins have been conditioned to be so thin that it can barely keep the human form"? Or does the mean you were just joking.

 

You are also intolerant.

 

Criticize him all you want. For now, I like what he is doing. Disagreements like this make the board spicier. I know of a board that is monotone, mostly, and vanilla, if anyone is interested.

This will be playing out over the next few weeks, Crawford and Valentine. Crawford can only hide for so long. It will be interesting to see what his side of this is when he finally opens up.

[User Name]

Valentine is running a baseball team, not a juvenile correction facility.

[iortiz]

Criticize him all you want. For now, I like what he is doing. Disagreements like this make the board spicier. I know of a board that is monotone, mostly, and vanilla, if anyone is interested.

This will be playing out over the next few weeks, Crawford and Valentine. Crawford can only hide for so long. It will be interesting to see what his side of this is when he finally opens up.

 

Mr. Carl Crawford had a horrible 2011 season. He is making tons of money. He should at least cooperate with his team and specially with his new bosses. If all this drama is true (no returning the calls, etc.) Carl Crawford is not in a good position to act like a diva.

[Elktonnick]

I think it would be a good approach to not say anything about Carl Crawford at all' date=' certainly not until he has [i']talked to the guy[/i]. I realize all of the above tactics are tools that can be used, but I think using them before you're actually managing the guy is pretty weak sauce.

 

 

 

I wouldn't say I'm a BV opponent. Not at all. I'm open to his way. I just find it frustrating that before the season has even started he has led the media to question Crawford's character and spilled some details about his conversation with Beckett. When a conversation is supposed to be private it is poor form to note that Beckett was pissed off at him. Perhaps that wouldn't have lost trust with you guys (if you were Beckett) but it would have with me. If I agree to keep a conversation private the whole thing will be private. I'm not going to discuss the tenor of the discussion or the subjects or anything.

 

As for being hired to be fired, I hope that's not the case. Being fired assumes failure and I hope they didn't plan to have failure in the next two years. That should be acceptable to no one. If this is ownership just making a point, they should find a better way.

 

Again you all miss the point, from the interview that I saw BV didn't go out of his way to out Crawford but only answered a question. The media drew the logical conclusion. Again Crawford has only himself to blame for the fallout.

 

Regarding what the media knows about Crawford's character, I think those media types who follow this club knew all about CC, Beckett et al's character long before BV came to town. CC is not a saint nor should he be treated as one. These atheletes make enormous sums of money because they are public figures. If the media weren't already predisposed to questioning Crawford's character they wouldn't have. The responsibility for questioning Crawford's character is Crawford's alone. This enabling bad behavior has to stop if the Red Sox are to change the clubhouse culture.

 

Most successful big league managers down through the years weren't best friends with their ballplayers. Francona tried that approach. It worked well for a while but in the end it didn't. Now it is time for a new approach.

[FredLynn]

Valentine is running a baseball team' date=' not a juvenile correction facility.[/quote']

 

The operative word in your post is "running". Crawford is not running the team. When your boss calls, you return the call. There is no cogent reason not to do so.

People are looking at Valentine as the cause of this media circus. All he did was call one of his players and when the call (or calls) was not returned, he told the truth about it.

What about Crawford's role in the media circus? Had he had the common decency to pick up the phone and return the call, even if it was just to say that he looked forward to speaking in more detail later on, none of this would have happened. I cannot think of anything Crawford could say to ameliorate this now, but an apology would help.

[User Name]

Smart big-market managers avoid giving the media fodder as much as they can. Valentine is doing the opposite. It's really that simple. He can pull off the necessary no-nonsense rulings and call-outs without going to the media.

[mvp 78]

EN, we didn't miss the point. We just don't agree with the conclusion.

 

Your point: CC should have just called BV back and it wouldn't be an issue

 

My point: BV should have just kept his mouth closed and it wouldn't be an issue

[a700hitter]

When Dick Wiliams took the helm of the Sox in 1967, he said that there had been too many Chiefs on the team, and there could be only one Chief. The first thing he did was strip Yaz of his Captain status. Yaz was a 2 time batting champion and the only star on the team. He went to Williams and told him that he'd do anything that he wanted him to do. That's ow you greet your boss after you have stunk up the place of business the prior season.

 

I mention Williams, because he was Valentines first manager. All Bobby V did was make a phone call.

[User Name]

Strawman at the ready.

 

It's not about the phone call, it's about whining to the media. In 1967 the media did not have nearly as much prevalence or impact as it does now. Apples and spaceships.

[mvp 78]

BV - 0 rings

Dick Williams - 0 rings

FrancoMa - 2 rings

[a700hitter]

EN, we didn't miss the point. We just don't agree with the conclusion.

 

Your point: CC should have just called BV back and it wouldn't be an issue

 

My point: BV should have just kept his mouth closed and it wouldn't be an issue

Taking your point, Bobby V places a call to CC and CC doesn't return the call, but Bobby V says nothing to the press. There's no issue... really? Does Bobby V forget that he called CC under your scenario or does he ignore the fact that CC snubbed him? Isn't the issue between Bobby V and CC the same whether or not the press knows?

[a700hitter]

BV - 0 rings

Dick Williams - 0 rings

FrancoMa - 2 rings

DickWilliams 2 rings 4 World Series.

[mvp 78]

Yeah and they can work it out on their own rather than getting outsiders involved.

[mvp 78]

DickWilliams 2 rings 4 World Series.

 

How many with the Sox?

[a700hitter]

How many with the Sox?

And that determines whether someone is a good manager?

[iortiz]

When Dick Wiliams took the helm of the Sox in 1967, he said that there had been too many Chiefs on the team, and there could be only one Chief. The first thing he did was strip Yaz of his Captain status. Yaz was a 2 time batting champion and the only star on the team. He went to Williams and told him that he'd do anything that he wanted him to do. That's ow you greet your boss after you have stunk up the place of business the prior season.

 

I mention Williams, because he was Valentines first manager. All Bobby V did was make a phone call.

 

Impresive. You are an entire baseball encyclopedia my friend.

 

Whether this went to the media or not, I don't really care. What I care is that Crawford is not making team-working. He is not making V's job easier. This is unaceptable from any employee and mostly from one who is making tons of money, regardless he just had a terrible season. Crawford's attitude is wrong.

[a700hitter]

Impresive. You are an entire baseball encyclopedia my friend.

 

Whether this went to the media or not, I don't really care. What I care is that Crawford is not making team-working. He is not making V's job easier. This is unaceptable from any employee and mostly from one who is making tons of money, regardless he just had a terrible season. Crawford's attitude is wrong.

I guess today it is unreasonable to expect a player to show common courtesy and return his bosses phone call.

[Elktonnick]

EN, we didn't miss the point. We just don't agree with the conclusion.

 

Your point: CC should have just called BV back and it wouldn't be an issue

 

My point: BV should have just kept his mouth closed and it wouldn't be an issue

 

First, It would have been an issue just you wouldn't have known about it.

 

Second and more importantly, That;'s not why they hired him. That's the point you are forgetting. They knew Bobby. To coin a phrase "It is all about Bobby being Bobby ":D