Players unhappy with the Valentine as manager?

[a700hitter]

I believe you have me mistaken with someone else when it comes to referring to your age. I may have mentioned Viagra.

Your disagreements with ital were SO mild that you both got banned and he broke his hand punching a wall. Pretty f***ing mild there Ted.

 

You bring out the worst in people, hence people troll you. You are annoying.

 

Don't "attack" me out of the blue. Especially when I wasn't addressing you in the first place.

 

I know you are incapable, but try really hard to let it go. And shut up and leave me be.

I've left you be for years, but figured turnabout was fair play after years of your sniping. Since you obviously can't take what you dish, maybe you should take your own advice, especially since I am capable of inflicting physical injury over the internet and across an ocean.

 

Edit:

 

BTW: People who troll me always end up more annoyed than I do. It's a Brooklyn skill.

[VA Sox Fan]

I've left you be for years, but figured turnabout was fair play after years of your sniping. Since you obviously can't take what you dish, maybe you should take your own advice. Especially since, I am capable of inflicting physical injury over the internet and across an ocean.

 

BTW: People who troll me always end up more annoyed than I do. It's a Brooklyn skill.

 

Ok. I'm used to you dodging the facts and blowing them off when it's convenient for you.

 

What exactly have I not been able to take that I can dish out? Lost me there Theodore.

 

I don't have anyone on ignore and I have never been banned for arguing with another poster of any age.

 

The physical injury was all on ital, no one else. I know you'd like to pat yourself on the back for that one.

 

Lay off bro. You are wrong tonight.

[a700hitter]

Ok. I'm used to you dodging the facts and blowing them off when it's convenient for you.

 

What exactly have I not been able to take that I can dish out? Lost me there Theodore.

 

I don't have anyone on ignore and I have never been banned for arguing with another poster of any age.

 

The physical injury was all on ital, no one else. I know you'd like to pat yourself on the back for that one.

 

Lay off bro. You are wrong tonight.

I don't pat myself on the back for that. I like Ital. He had some anger issues that I exploited, and I regret that. What can't you take? I made one age crack tonight and it set you off. Plenty of us here endure age cracks every day on this forum. Suck it up. Shake it off. Embrace your inner hag. J/K

[mvp 78]

I'm in the "too old to punch a wall, but too young to take a tax-free 401k distribution" group.

[a700hitter]

I'm in the "too old to punch a wall' date=' but too young to take a tax-free 401k distribution" group.[/quote']And you call yourself an accountant? I call fraud. There is no such thing as tax free- 401k distribution.:thumbdown

[seabeachfred]

Ok. I'm used to you dodging the facts and blowing them off when it's convenient for you.

 

What exactly have I not been able to take that I can dish out? Lost me there Theodore.

 

I don't have anyone on ignore and I have never been banned for arguing with another poster of any age.

 

The physical injury was all on ital, no one else. I know you'd like to pat yourself on the back for that one.

 

Lay off bro. You are wrong tonight.

 

You know Lyn Nay, I've tried my best to reach an accommodation with you and will keep trying but you seem to love to snipe at people you don't agree with and make snotty caustic remarks as you did with a couple of my posts tonight. Look, you are very reluctant to criticize the Red Sox for anything and I happen to sometimes be overly critical. I accept your position on things even though I disagree with mosto of them. You do NOT accept my position or Ted's or Muggah's or Elk's or Pumpsie"s or many others who take a more critical stand on the goings-on in Red Sox country. You're quick with sarcasm and wonder why some give it back to y ou as Ted does. Accept the fact that you and I are going to disagree a good deal of the time...accept it as I accept your positions which I mostly find faulty. Keep the nasty personal comments to yourself and we will all get along better on this board.

[User Name]

You know Lyn Nay' date=' I've tried my best to reach an accommodation with you and will keep trying but you seem to love to snipe at people you don't agree with and make snotty caustic remarks as you did with a couple of my posts tonight. Look, you are very reluctant to criticize the Red Sox for anything and I happen to sometimes be overly critical. I accept your position on things even though I disagree with mosto of them. You do NOT accept my position or Ted's or Muggah's or Elk's or Pumpsie"s or many others who take a more critical stand on the goings-on in Red Sox country. You're quick with sarcasm and wonder why some give it back to y ou as Ted does. Accept the fact that you and I are going to disagree a good deal of the time...accept it as I accept your positions which I mostly find faulty. Keep the nasty personal comments to yourself and we will all get along better on this board.[/quote']

 

This is very very ironic Fred let me tell ya.

[mvp 78]

Fine "10% additional" tax-free, or "penalty" free.

[Bellhorn04]

Some people see the glass as half-full. Some people see it as half-empty.

 

Accountants see the glass as too damn big, and recommend a sizing adjustment on future orders.

[mvp 78]

You can just call me a polyanna accountant!

[a700hitter]

VA, I apologize for the gratuitous reference to your age. It wasn't funny and personal comments have no place in a baseball forum. I come here to have fun as I am sure you do too. I apologize.

[VA Sox Fan]

You know Lyn Nay' date=' I've tried my best to reach an accommodation with you and will keep trying but you seem to love to snipe at people you don't agree with and make snotty caustic remarks as you did with a couple of my posts tonight. Look, you are very reluctant to criticize the Red Sox for anything and I happen to sometimes be overly critical. I accept your position on things even though I disagree with mosto of them. You do NOT accept my position or Ted's or Muggah's or Elk's or Pumpsie"s or many others who take a more critical stand on the goings-on in Red Sox country. You're quick with sarcasm and wonder why some give it back to y ou as Ted does. Accept the fact that you and I are going to disagree a good deal of the time...accept it as I accept your positions which I mostly find faulty. Keep the nasty personal comments to yourself and we will all get along better on this board.[/quote']

 

 

I'm sorry fred. Was I addressing you? Why don't you stay out of it. a700 and I have a long history of disagreeing. I did not start this one, 700 did. He likes to get personal, especially with me, but gets snippy and defensive when others get personal with him.

 

This has been going on for years. I do not care what you think of me or my attitude toward the Red Sox or what you think about anything.

 

Butt out and mind your own business.

[VA Sox Fan]

VA' date=' I apologize for the gratuitous reference to your age. It wasn't funny and personal comments have no place in a baseball forum. I come here to have fun as I am sure you do too. I apologize.[/quote']

 

No problem dude. It's a new day!

[Emmz]

*pictures old people hitting each other with canes*

[VA Sox Fan]

*pictures old people hitting each other with canes*

 

 

Good one Emmz!

[a700hitter]

*pictures old people hitting each other with canes*

 

If it doesn't escalate to walkers, I can hold my own with any geezer.

[Emmz]

If it doesn't escalate to walkers' date=' I can hold my own with any geezer.[/quote']

 

*Rascal chase scene*

[a700hitter]

*Rascal chase scene*

Mine has a Hemi with 343 HP.

 

[FredLynn]

I'm sorry fred. Was I addressing you? Why don't you stay out of it. a700 and I have a long history of disagreeing. I did not start this one, 700 did. He likes to get personal, especially with me, but gets snippy and defensive when others get personal with him.

 

This has been going on for years. I do not care what you think of me or my attitude toward the Red Sox or what you think about anything.

 

Butt out and mind your own business.

 

With all due respect VA, while the discussion was between you and 700 everyone who reads this thread is reading what you two are posting. Its not about baseball, and at times that kind of stuff dominates pages here. IMO we are probably better off restricting it to a post or two at most.

[FredLynn]

*pictures old people hitting each other with canes*

 

Unfortunately, I am no longer allowed to post humorous pictures here. I think some humor to lighten the mood in that manner would be a good addition, but alas, the mod will fire me if I do it.

[Emmz]

Unfortunately' date=' I am no longer allowed to post humorous pictures here. I think some humor to lighten the mood in that manner would be a good addition, but alas, the mod will fire me if I do it.[/quote']

 

It usually is only called out when you're being repetitive/unfunny. A few posters have a knack for well-timed macros/gifs/other forms of funny images, and no one gets bent out of shape over it. I thought of doing the same, but couldn't be bothered.

[FredLynn]

It usually is only called out when you're being repetitive/unfunny. A few posters have a knack for well-timed macros/gifs/other forms of funny images' date=' and no one gets bent out of shape over it. I thought of doing the same, but couldn't be bothered.[/quote']

 

Here is what the mod said: "The pictures must go". While they may not bother you or others here, apparently the boss will not tolerate them.

[VA Sox Fan]

With all due respect VA' date=' while the discussion was between you and 700 everyone who reads this thread is reading what you two are posting. Its not about baseball, and at times that kind of stuff dominates pages here. IMO we are probably better off restricting it to a post or two at most.[/quote']

 

Thanks pg. I wasn't addressing you either. Thanks again for your 2 cents.

[Emmz]

I guess WhiskeyBreath's out of a job here on Talksox then.

[seabeachfred]

This is very very ironic Fred let me tell ya.

 

Let me tell you User it isn't very ironic at all. Unless I am attacked personally I do not attack posters in a personal manner. I do attack the players, front office and ownership. Big difference!!!!!!!!

[example1]

I'm resurrecting this thread.

 

Edes article. Damning stuff:

 

This article is like the September ones all over again. At least it isn't collapse related, but it's pretty bad:

 

http://espn.go.com/boston/mlb/story/_/id/8162350/boston-red-sox-manager-bobby-valentine-seems-encountering-problems-all-directions

 

"• Tuck keeps his communication with Valentine to a minimum. He is known to walk past the manager without so much as a hello."

 

"David Ortiz publicly stated his support recently for the manager, but another respected player on the team said privately that it was all for show. That same player has gone weeks without speaking to Valentine and said that the manager does not have the support of "anyone" in the clubhouse. That is likely an exaggeration -- another veteran told a friend he has come around on the manager after initially being shocked at his hire -- but Valentine told associates that he knows he is being bad-mouthed in the clubhouse and is at a loss to understand why."

 

Holy s***. I understand Valentine apologists wanting this guy to get a fair shot. I wish him well too and think he deserves to be treated fairly.

 

However, something is seriously broken here. Anyone who thinks this is just a matter of a bunch of selfish players SIMULTANEOUSLY STOPPING TO TALK TO THE MANAGER WITH OTHER COACHES DOING THE SAME THING is probably pretty far off.

 

There is something about Bobby V that strikes at the heart of trust and that is at least contributing to some level of dysfunction here. I'm not saying he's a terrible guy or that he's even done anything overtly wrong, but the culture of this team is not even slightly leaning in his direction and that's a huge, huge problem.

[jung]

I think you have hit on it E. The culture of the team is leaning all the other way. In my view, the team was laying in wait for V from day one because they were unwilling to accept responsibility for having stabbed Tito right in the back. They wanted to have their cake and eat it to. They wanted to take a players manager....maybe the ultimate players manager, use him as a rag doll, and after tossing him under the bus and running him over with it had the audacity to be ready to launch into any manager upper management brought in suggestive of a change of culture.

 

In my view the early incidents were in the cards from the very beginning because the players wanted it that way. In my V view does not deserve to be treated unfairly if that is actually what is happening. I say if because I have grown weary of the media blowing things out of proportion and tend to take everything with a grain of salt. That said based on what I can see from the outside looking in, it does look like V is not getting a fair shot from anybody and I think it sucks.

 

At some point we may have to acknowledge that the folks that thought the whole miserable bunch had to go may well have been right, even if that meant that some of our favorite babies got thrown out with the bathwater.

[example1]

I think you have hit on it E. The culture of the team is leaning all the other way. In my view' date=' the team was laying in wait for V from day one because they were unwilling to accept responsibility for having stabbed Tito right in the back. They wanted to have their cake and eat it to. They wanted to take a players manager....maybe the ultimate players manager, use him as a rag doll, and after tossing him under the bus and running him over with it had the audacity to be ready to launch into any manager upper management brought in suggestive of a change of culture. [/quote']

 

Do you give no credence to the possibility that they wanted a players manager because most of them actually HAD acted like adults and the events of September focused on a small number of people and punished the lot for them? I mean, when issues like Pedroia "playing cribbage" with Tito became a sign that the team was somehow running out of control over the management, I have to wonder what data we are really using to drive our assumptions.

 

Where I work I am allowed to come and go as I please. I work more than 40 hrs a week, I get my stuff done, we have a good reputation and are hard workers. If a year from now 3 employees slack off, or do something stupid, leading to my boss getting fired, I would DEFINITELY resent it if a new manager came in, treated me like dirt and was waiting at the door to ensure that I arrived on time every morning when that had never been an issue for 5 years.

 

The same goes here. Guys like Gonzalez and Pedroia were regularly referred to as STELLAR clubhouse presences prior to the media vomiting of September 2011. Other players, announcers and the media loved everything about Pedroia (other than his good-natured mouth). Gonzalez was quiet and more of an on-field leader, but he played 160 games every year, gave good effort on both sides of the ball. Hell, he jumped right into RF this year. Good employees and team players can rightfully get mad when they are treated like babies or condescended to by supervisors.

 

 

In my view the early incidents were in the cards from the very beginning because the players wanted it that way. In my V view does not deserve to be treated unfairly if that is actually what is happening. I say if because I have grown weary of the media blowing things out of proportion and tend to take everything with a grain of salt. That said based on what I can see from the outside looking in, it does look like V is not getting a fair shot from anybody and I think it sucks.

 

At some point we may have to acknowledge that the folks that thought the whole miserable bunch had to go may well have been right, even if that meant that some of our favorite babies got thrown out with the bathwater.

 

I don't really agree, for the reasons stated above and with the shared caveat that you and I don't know what the hell is going on. The problem is either one of 25 players all being jerks, or of a manager (who admittedly has a reputation for being tough to get along with) coming in and overplaying his hand.

 

Ockham's razor tells me that V overplayed his hand, ownership overplayed their hand, and the players are leading a quiet revolt against him because of it.

 

There are SO MANY managers who would come in and not be a "players manager" but not be Bobby V's style of accountability either. I think those are the guys Ben had selected and LL said "nope".

[jung]

I don't think V overplayed his hand as much as he did not understand Sox management's ability to hire him under one set of dynamics and just as quickly abandon him at the drop of a hat. They hired him and then buried him at the earliest opportunity.

 

Hard for me to cull out a small group of players last year as culprits when at the end Tito himself claimed to have lost the ability to get the most out of the team. By his own admission, he lost their ear. I would be willing to bet that nobody stepped forward to help Tito when he really was trying to take his last shots at rallying the troops. I would not expect Pedey to have done it cause that is not his style. Frankly I think Ortiz takes this team leadership thing as an on again off again thing hoping that it helps his cause when he is negotiating for money but not something he takes seriously either. Seemingly nobody stepped forward to help Tito when he needed it most and like Tito's style as a manager or not, that sucks as much or more than V not getting a fair shake this year.

 

So while only some of the players might have been visible, vocal clubhouse issues, I would have to guess that none of them stepped forward to help their manager or help themselves when they needed it most last year. That is pretty damning but I just don't see how you can view it any other way based on the information that everybody has acknowledged at this point.

 

So if you are in management...what do you do next? Do you bring in somebody else for them to steamroll, somebody that they won't even help even if it is in their best interests to help him? Do you bring in somebody that you think will have an impact and a catalyst for change? I would suggest that they did the worst thing they could have possibly done. They brought in somebody under the guise of change without having the intestinal fortitude to back him, turning that entire effort into a sham. Heck if they wanted this to be a sham they should have let V in on it. Clearly V could have played along. Seems to me he has played along since being publicly castrated by management months ago. They could have just as easily have brought him into their confidence instead of laying him out in public as a means of letting him know this was a sham to begin with.

 

In fact Management not the players but Management might have had their cake and eaten it to if they had just brought V in on the PR stunt. They may well have a decent manager in V and clearly he has pulled in his horns since being publicly disrobed by management early on. As for whether somebody more comfortable being the kind of manager Tito was without having to live outside his own skin a bit would be better for this team is something we may never know.

 

I still don't think V has been given a fair shake either by Management or the players and I don't think Tito got a fair shake from either Management or the players as well.

[jung]

Geez could Sox Management engage in more double speak. I noticed at the bottom of the article E1 posted a link for that one of the reasons given for Tito's dismissal was that his communication with players in general shrunk down to communication with only a few like Pedroia...so they let Tito go in part because he was not communicating enough with his players and then hire a manager known to keep a distance between himself and his players??? More ********....what else is new.