Players unhappy with the Valentine as manager?

[SCM33]

This article was copy and pasted from ESPN.com insider Buster Olney (your welcome for those of you who dont have it):

Somebody should make this sign and hang it on the front door of the Boston Red Sox clubhouse:

ALL PRECONCEIVED NOTIONS TO BE LEFT HERE, NEVER TO ENTER.

 

Because ignoring reputations and focusing on the task at hand is the best way -- and maybe the only way -- they can all make this mix work together. There will be an enormous amount of talent in the room, and all of them -- from Josh Beckett to Bobby Valentine to Jon Lester to Larry Lucchino -- have an opportunity to bury the past, to succeed in spite of what is said about them.

 

As Valentine emerged as a managerial candidate, some Red Sox players have been upset; they've been grumbling to each other, through texts and phone calls. Maybe it's because they heard Bobby critique their play on the air. Maybe they haven't liked his tone. Maybe they haven't liked his smile. Maybe they've heard bad things. And the fact is they had no power to do anything about it, because the September collapse completely undercut the credibility of the Red Sox players. If one of them had called the front office to register concerns about Valentine, they might've heard laughter on the other end of the line. The Boston players had complete control of the clubhouse in 2011, and we know what happened.

 

Well, the players should forget about that history, about their preconceived notions of Valentine, and focus on this: Bobby Valentine really cares about baseball; he really wants to win. He will be into every pitch of every inning of every game of every week of every month of the season. He will see everything.

 

If you gave a test to all folks in the sport about all aspects of the game, I'd guess he might score as high or better than anyone currently in uniform -- about how the sport is played, why it's played, how it needs to be played, what makes hitters succeed, what makes pitchers succeed, and the proper way for infielders to prepare for a play and make a play. He'll protect relievers from overuse, he'll rest tired position players, he'll use his bench guys. He'll talk, he'll explain, he'll listen.

 

This is probably Valentine's last chance at managing in the big leagues. And did I mention this -- he really wants to win.

 

 

And what Bobby should do is live on planes for the next six weeks, to go see his new players, one by one. Go see Beckett with a clear mind. Forget the story about the beer and the video games and the fried chicken, and forget about what he did on the mound in September. Before that last month, Beckett was revitalized; Bobby was in the broadcast booth on a Sunday night in April when Beckett had his 2011 coming-out party, when he had a great curveball and fastball and shut down the New York Yankees. Beckett can be one of the best pitchers in the majors, and he's been the leader of two championship teams in the last nine seasons, dominating great hitters in big games. He will likely have a chip on his shoulder going into next year, considering all that's been said about him during the past month-plus. He really wants to win.

 

Bobby should go see Carl Crawford in Houston, where Crawford willed his way out of one of the worst neighborhoods in this country and became a great baseball player. Never mind what was seen in 2011; hang with Crawford for a day, and see him get up at 5 a.m. for an offseason workout, and go through that with him. By the end of the day, his struggles in 2011 will make more sense. No player puts more pressure on himself than Crawford; he really wants to win, to succeed.

 

Valentine should visit with Lester, to talk him with him about any anger he might have about how he's been portrayed in Boston. Based on what he's said to friends in the past, Lester probably is among the many players who would prefer that reporters weren't swirling around the clubhouse every day. Valentine can encourage him: Hey, forget about all of them. Forget about 2011. You're just 28 years old and you're one of the best left-handers in the game of baseball, and you will be great again. Lester had terrible trouble with in-game adjustments at the end of the season, at limiting his pitch count early so that he would have a chance to be in the game in the seventh inning, and part of the reason is that he tended to fight himself. Lester really wants to win.

 

All the Red Sox players will desperately want to win this year, to thrive, slam the door on what happened this year. One by one, Valentine should talk with the players, and the players should talk with him, and they should all listen, and he should listen.

 

Everybody should understand: New general manager Ben Cherington is not a kid. He's 37 years old and a New Hampshire native who grew up with the Red Sox; he's been with the Red Sox organization longer than any of them, longer than Kevin Youkilis or Lucchino, certainly longer than Valentine. What happens in the big leagues is part of a larger picture, and Cherington knows about all the moving parts better than anyone.

 

Cherington must be part of the chain of command. Lucchino has been Valentine's patron saint in this process and is the person most responsible for Valentine getting this opportunity, and now Lucchino must withdraw from the room. He must allow the relationship between Cherington and Valentine to form and to build and to strengthen. Lucchino cannot create a situation in which Cherington is diminished, in which Lucchino becomes the person Valentine reaches out to solve problems and make decisions.

 

There are tinderbox elements in place, and this situation could explode underneath all of them: Players wounded by a historic collapse and angry with the media coverage; a new manager who has a strong personality and a strong reputation, to the point that he may be swimming upstream against the perception of some of his players; a new general manager, and seemingly a power vacuum in the front office after the departure of Theo Epstein; owners who have mostly been absent, as John Henry and Tom Werner were when Cherington was introduced as general manager; and media scrutiny that will almost certainly be unprecedented because of the personalities and the 2011 collapse, and because of the new social media era we are in. It could be a disaster.

 

And it could be great, if they all work well together, which cannot happen unless they leave all preconceived notions at the door.

 

Valentine emerged from a long and convoluted search, writes Peter Abraham. There is now a major piece in place for the Red Sox, writes Nick Cafardo. Valentine's analysis gives a window into his view of the Red Sox, writes Steve Buckley.

 

The Red Sox just got a hero or a villain.

 

You know what, Ive come around on this. For a little while I was against it (Valentine), then it got to the point where I really didnt give a s***, I just wanted it over.

 

After finding out that the players were unhappy that Bobby Valentine was named manager....I am on board with the hiring. If the players dont like it, request a trade and get the hell out. The players who dont like it are most likely the same ones that were creating all of the problems last year.

 

Maybe LL knows that last year was unacceptable. Maybe, just maybe he was stubborn in this whole manager hiring fiasco because he knew he had to have a manager to put the players in their place, and not be buddy buddy with them (Sveum was a little too close age wise to a lot of them). Maybe the manager hiring process was being used by LL as a measuring stick to gauge BC's ability to identify the glaring issues with this team, which were inside the clubhouse.

 

Blow it up? Yeah, I said it all off season and they've been going along with that plan as I hoped (albeit a lot slower than I wished). Maybe this is a piece of that puzzle that I overlooked or did not consider. Maybe this little firecracker (Valentine) planted inside that locker room blows things up internally, rather than the baseball operations people picking it apart from the outside. Maybe we finally find out who wants to play baseball and who doesn't......who gives a s*** about winning, and who gives a s*** about collecting a paycheck.

 

Maybe Larry Lucchino knows what hes doing after all.

[Palodios]

Odds are, this is media-created ********.

 

If it is not... the players should suck it up. Seriously, act like men for once in a while.

 

I just walked by Fenway today... and I realized exactly how close Popeyes chicken really is-- we're talking maybe a thousand feet from the stadium. It sickened me. Grow up Red Sox.

[SCM33]

EDIT: MODS PLEASE CHANGE TITLE TO:

 

Players unhappy with Valentine as manager?

 

Idiot me...sorry MODS.

[ipot]

If there is any truth to this...

 

To: Red Sox Players

 

Read your CONTRACT that stipulates you are being paid MILLIONS to do a JOB. Your contract makes you an EMPLOYEE of the Red Sox.

 

It's like asking a bunch of pre-schoolers who drove their teacher insane by destrying the classroom and then wanting to pick the substitute.

 

I don't care if an organ grinder's monkey is managing the team, you are being PAID TO DO A JOB. This ain't the teenage days of summer.

[BigPapiEnFuego]

The players who dont like it are most likely the same ones that were creating all of the problems last year.

 

 

It's very likely just that. Screw these idiots. I hope Valentine doesn't take any of this s***. Players want to act like idiots? Bench them. They cry about it? Get rid of them. You're an employee(an overpaid crybaby one at that) so act like it or get fired.

[iortiz]

Sure, sometimes the media is sensationalist, and yes, we do not have the entire picture or the exact context in order to emit an accurate opinion, but the more I read and the more I collect the pieces the more I believe that this organization is disfunctional in several areas but specially at our top management at least the last 3-4 years. There is the root of the problem. I've been saying that over and over again.

 

I don't care if we play with Pawtucket, but if some divas do not want to be here, they better walk wherever they want, but please, stop hurting this team. This is not a country club in Cancun. This is the Boston Red Sox baseball.

 

I hope BV stops this circus and let these divas know that this team will have some little changes around and will run pretty different from now. Call it the fascist era if you want, but you are going to perform and deliver for what you are paid for and you better put all in the field, I don't care how much you are making, I don't care if you are a FA next year, I don't care if you are dating Maddona, you don't Like it? Get out of here. Don't wanna train? Get out of here. Want more beer, chicken and Atari in the clubhouse ? Get out of here. Are you still being a cancer in the locker room? Get out of here. You are not welcome. We do not need you, whoever the name is the case.

[Gringo]

I can't remember a Red Sox team as disliked by it's own fans as this one is right now.

 

Bobby V is a focused, upbeat guy, and I think he'll do well whipping these hammerheads into shape.

[wetcamelfood]

It's very likely just that. Screw these idiots. I hope Valentine doesn't take any of this s***. Players want to act like idiots? Bench them. They cry about it? Get rid of them. You're an employee(an overpaid crybaby one at that) so act like it or get fired.

 

Though I agree with this, my fear is that those players will pull a Manny then they're forced to trade them for pennies on the dollar etc. which would slow down a rebuilding phase which may be coming anyways (if that's even possible)

[jung]

Though I agree with this, my fear is that those players will pull a Manny then they're forced to trade them for pennies on the dollar etc. which would slow down a rebuilding phase which may be coming anyways (if that's even possible)

 

That is the gamble with V. Can he get this team to come around without alienating the players that are truly entitled by their long term, big money, guaranteed contracts. The fact that V has teeth and will actually try to pack some players off to Buffalo sounds great all the way up until V actually forces the FO to decide to pack somebody off. You never get value back for a player you are trying to off.

[mvp 78]

I can't remember a Red Sox team as disliked by it's own fans as this one is right now.

 

Bobby V is a focused, upbeat guy, and I think he'll do well whipping these hammerheads into shape.

 

2001 was an unlikeable team. They just quit on the season earlier than 2011.

[YAZMAN]

EDIT: MODS PLEASE CHANGE TITLE TO:

 

Players unhappy with Valentine as manager?

 

Idiot me...sorry MODS.

 

Click on "edit" in the very first post in the thread, I'm pretty sure you can edit the thread title from there.

[SoxSport]

A lot of nitpicking going on in the media today. You'd expect this for a process that has been way overexposed. Kind of reminds me of the ARod disaster. Except this one has turned out OK--for now.

 

I suspect they've had this decision under wraps until V got back from Japan. That might have been the delay.

 

Pedey had a nice diplomatic statement about V. He'd play for anybody. The rest of those guys better get serious about playing ball--a full season--next year.

[User Name]

More media babble. Valentine will be just fine and the players will accept him--initially at least.

[jung]

There are all kinds of babble including media babble. Talking about Valentine in terms of some kind of a drill sergeant is a different kind of babble. Have not heard that to much here but have heard it.

 

Much has changed in the nine years since V has been in a dugout. Players with contracts have the control in this league, not managers. It was headed that way when V went out the door in NY but the pendulum has swung way over that way since then. I would guess that the right tone for V going in would be about 2 notches down from the old V which would be about 4 notches more demanding than Tito ever was.

[Dojji]

You'd have gotten this reaction with any new manager. There's a large cadre of players who absolutely loved Tito. I know Pedroi was one of them.

[a700hitter]

You'd have gotten this reaction with any new manager. There's a large cadre of players who absolutely loved Tito. I know Pedroi was one of them.

I'll paraphrase Casey Stengel one more time for those of you who missed it previously. There will always be half a dozen players who love the manager and half a dozen who hate the manager. The rest are either indifferent or haven't made up their minds. The secret to good managing is to keep the half dozen players who hate you from talking to those who haven't made up their minds. Managers will always have players that hate them, no matter how good the manager is.

[YAZMAN]

I can't remember a Red Sox team as disliked by it's own fans as this one is right now.

 

Bobby V is a focused, upbeat guy, and I think he'll do well whipping these hammerheads into shape.

 

He'd do well with a young team. I think the veterans take his reactive, off-the-cuff comments as disrespectful.

[SoxSport]

The media is saying V is a "risky choice" for managing the Sox.

 

I don't see it that way: On the contrary, the risky choices were all those other candidates who represented

essentially the status quo--pretty much the same as Tito operated. That led to a situation where the inmates were running the asylum.

 

As is often the case, what the media says may in fact be the opposite of the truth. I'm wondering which team is going to be annointed this season as the "dominant powerhouse that can't miss." I hope it isn't the Red Sox, because it's the kiss of death.

[a700hitter]

He'd do well with a young team. I think the veterans take his reactive' date=' off-the-cuff comments as disrespectful.[/quote']That'll be just too bad for the pampered princesses. They make a lot of money to play the game the right way. If they don't, they should expect to get called out.

 

It's funny how everyone is ready to cut Beckett's throat after a very good season due to the beer drinking story and his perceived lack of commitment to the team. When i was questioning his commitment to the team in 2008 when he decided to take a month's sabbatical to check out a phantom injury, I was excoriated. He had pins and needles from sleeping on his arm. They built him a special contraption for sleeping. He had MRI's etc, that completely gave a clean bill of health, but he continued to obsess until Altcheck finally MRI'd everything and told him that he had surprisingly little wear and tear in his arm. When he returned to action in 2008, he was out of pitching shape and he got lit up the first couple of times out, and then when he starting pitching better, his lack of conditioning combined with the layoff resulted in a strained oblique that rendered him useless for the playoffs and cost us the chance of consecutive titles. I have been dubious about his commitment since then, but he is a top pitcher. Maybe calling him out will motivate him a bit.

[SoxSport]

Sure' date=' sometimes the media is sensationalism, and yes, we do not have the entire picture or the exact context in order to emit an accurate opinion, but the more I read and the more I collect the pieces the more [b']I believe that this organization is disfunctional in several areas but specially at our top management at least the last 3-4 years. There is the root of the problem. I've been saying that over and over again. [/b]

I don't care if we play with Pawtucket, but if some divas do not want to be here, they better walk wherever they want, but please, stop hurting this team. This is not a country club in Cancun. This is the Boston Red Sox baseball.

 

I hope BV stops this circus and let these divas know that this team will have some little changes around and will run pretty different from now. Call it the fascist era if you want, but you are going to perform and deliver for what you are paid for and you better put all in the field, I don't care how much you are making, I don't care if you are a FA next year, I don't care if you are dating Maddona, you don't Like it? Get out of here. Don't wanna train? Get out of here. Want more beer, chicken and Atari in the clubhouse ? Get out of here. Are you still being a cancer in the locker room? Get out of here. You are not welcome. We do not need you, whoever the name is the case.

 

I think the problem is Henry, Werner and Lucchino left the Red Sox to be entirely run by Epstein & Co the last few years. That's the power given after he took off his gorilla suit. Lucchino turned his attention to the ballpark improvements and Henry/Werner to new soccer team investments in Europe. I don't think they paid much attention to player personnel. Sure, they probably signed off on the major free agents, but it looks like it was really a rubber stamp on whatever Epstein wanted. With the collapse this year, they probably took a hard look at the baseball operations, to figure out what was wrong. It didn't take them long to conclude they needed a change in the manager and the GM. Tito and Theo were both given the opportunity to exit gracefully.

 

The problem is, they really hadn't thought out what type of manager they wanted, and left

that to the "new" GM, BC, who was a known commodity--the easy way out. At some point, they realized they didn't want the status quo for a manager, and changed the direction of the manager search. Too bad all this was done in public, which raised control issues.

 

I hope at this point the ownership has made clear what LL's and BC's responsibilities are, and what is expected from the new manager. It's long overdue.

[a700hitter]

I think the problem is Henry, Werner and Lucchino left the Red Sox to be entirely run by Epstein & Co the last few years. That's the power given after he took off his gorilla suit. Lucchino turned his attention to the ballpark improvements and Henry/Werner to new soccer team investments in Europe. I don't think they paid much attention to player personnel. Sure, they probably signed off on the major free agents, but it looks like it was really a rubber stamp on whatever Epstein wanted. With the collapse this year, they probably took a hard look at the baseball operations, to figure out what was wrong. It didn't take them long to conclude they needed a change in the manager and the GM. Tito and Theo were both given the opportunity to exit gracefully.

 

The problem is, they really hadn't thought out what type of manager they wanted, and left

that to the "new" GM, BC, who was a known commodity--the easy way out. At some point, they realized they didn't want the status quo for a manager, and changed the direction of the manager search. Too bad all this was done in public, which raised control issues.

 

I hope at this point the ownership has made clear what LL's and BC's responsibilities are, and what is expected from the new manager. It's long overdue.

I think this is as plausible explanation as any. I think Cherrington will be under close observation for a while, because it is pretty obvious that Theo made a big mess of things once he was given autonomy.

[VA Sox Fan]

That'll be just too bad for the pampered princesses. They make a lot of money to play the game the right way. If they don't' date=' they should expect to get called out[/b'].

 

It's funny how everyone is ready to cut Beckett's throat after a very good season due to the beer drinking story and his perceived lack of commitment to the team. When i was questioning his commitment to the team in 2008 when he decided to take a month's sabbatical to check out a phantom injury, I was excoriated. He had pins and needles from sleeping on his arm. They built him a special contraption for sleeping. He had MRI's etc, that completely gave a clean bill of health, but he continued to obsess until Altcheck finally MRI'd everything and told him that he had surprisingly little wear and tear in his arm. When he returned to action in 2008, he was out of pitching shape and he got lit up the first couple of times out, and then when he starting pitching better, his lack of conditioning combined with the layoff resulted in a strained oblique that rendered him useless for the playoffs and cost us the chance of consecutive titles. I have been dubious about his commitment since then, but he is a top pitcher. Maybe calling him out will motivate him a bit.

 

 

You thinks it's ok for a manager to call out a specific player to the media?

[a700hitter]

You thinks it's ok for a manager to call out a specific player to the media?

If private discussions prove to be unproductive, yes, I think it is okay.

[User Name]

Yes, it's plausible to think that this is all Theo's mess. He had the autonomy to sign free agents that Lucchino himself admits lobbying for.

[VA Sox Fan]

If private discussions prove to be unproductive' date=' yes, I think it is okay.[/quote']

 

I don't know, sounds like something Ozzie Guillen would do. I'm not a fan of it personally.

[a700hitter]

I don't know' date=' sounds like something Ozzie Guillen would do. I'm not a fan of it personally.[/quote']He was right about Bobby Jenks. The guys who play hard for him and play the game the right way like Konerko don't get called out. Calling a guy out in the press can be messy, but sometimes it needs to be done-- if private conversations have failed to get results. Dick Williams not only called guys out in the press, but he would do the post game interview in earshot of the offending players locker so he could hear it. He was pretty successful. It's a different age and time, but emotionally people have not changed. They will have similar reactions as they did back then. Players have more leverage today, but most will want to perform rather than make excuses for not performing once the spotlight is turned on them.

[jung]

Yes, it's plausible to think that this is all Theo's mess. He had the autonomy to sign free agents that Lucchino himself admits lobbying for.

 

Agreed....I can't see letting LL off the hook as easily as some would like. To many of those moves smack of something LL would do.

 

Even this manager move to some extent suggests things are about the same.

 

Would Theo have forwarded Sveum as his top choice for manager? Yes.

Did BC forward Sveum as his top choice for manager? Yes.

Would the Sox have hired Sveum if Theo had brought him forward? No.

Did the Sox hire Sveum after BC brought him forward? No.

 

Would either BC or Theo have brought V forward? Not in your lifetime or mine.

Why wouldn't BC forward a guy like V? Because V is strong willed, vocal and insistent on getting his way. That puts BC in a very difficult spot, boxed by two guys both cut from the same cloth....a tough spot for a guy that does not feel like he has enough autonomy in the first place.

Why wouldn't Theo forward a guy like V? Substitute Theo for BC in the answer above.

[iortiz]

I think this is as plausible explanation as any. I think Cherrington will be under close observation for a while' date=' because it is pretty obvious that Theo made a big mess of things once he was given autonomy.[/quote']

 

At this point, I don't know whether Epstain was another puppet or not, but if SoxSports theory is right (seems so), I agree about BC. He will be under close observation after Theo's mess.

 

On the other hand and rethinking again about the time consumed and any move yet, I believe that they were waiting BV's sign in order restructure this team. IMO he will be a key piece in order build this 2012 team. I guess that his suggestions in the selection of players will be over BC's calls. I wouldn't be surprised if LL gave BV more power than usual given to a manager.

 

We'll see.

[a700hitter]

Agreed....I can't see letting LL off the hook as easily as some would like. To many of those moves smack of something LL would do.

I didn't mean to let LL off the hook, but things did take a turn for the worse as Theo was given more autonomy. As a result, BC will be on a very short leash IMO.

[Elktonnick]

Agreed....I can't see letting LL off the hook as easily as some would like. To many of those moves smack of something LL would do.

 

Even this manager move to some extent suggests things are about the same.

 

Would Theo have forwarded Sveum as his top choice for manager? Yes.

Did BC forward Sveum as his top choice for manager? Yes.

Would the Sox have hired Sveum if Theo had brought him forward? No.

Did the Sox hire Sveum after BC brought him forward? No.

 

Would either BC or Theo have brought V forward? Not in your lifetime or mine.

Why wouldn't BC forward a guy like V? Because V is strong willed, vocal and insistent on getting his way. That puts BC in a very difficult spot, boxed by two guys both cut from the same cloth....a tough spot for a guy that does not feel like he has enough autonomy in the first place.

Why wouldn't Theo forward a guy like V? Substitute Theo for BC in the answer above.

 

Hiring Bobby V wasn't just a baseball move it was a marketing one as well. Based on published reports , Lucchino et al were very concerned about fan reaction to the collapse. They monitor radio, the press aand yes these boards to guage fan reaction. They know their fan base was angry. That's why they embarked on the housecleaning. Sveum was too much like Francona. There are indications that they were concerned that a Sveum and Lamont type wouldn't satisfy the fans who wanted things to change after the team quit on a player friendly manager.