Bobby Valentine agrees ro deal to become Red Sox Manager

[a700hitter]

True but in this case he may be more of a problem than he is worth. And I think virtually everyone knows it.

If that is the case and they do get rid of Beckett in the same year that they lose Papelbon and they need a 4th and 5th starter too, we are looking at a 4th place finish in 2012. I don't think they would bring Valentine into losing circumstances like that.

[iortiz]

If that is the case and they do get rid of Beckett in the same year that they lose Papelbon and they need a 4th and 5th starter too' date=' we are looking at a 4th place finish in 2012. I don't think they would bring Valentine into losing circumstances like that.[/quote']

 

This scenario is scary

[Elktonnick]

If that is the case and they do get rid of Beckett in the same year that they lose Papelbon and they need a 4th and 5th starter too' date=' we are looking at a 4th place finish in 2012. I don't think they would bring Valentine into losing circumstances like that.[/quote']

 

Again you misstate what it is being suggested. That is if they can they will. It would be in consideration of what the potential gain is over the potential lose and the risks involved.

[a700hitter]

Again you misstate what it is being suggested. That is if they can they will. It would be in consideration of what the potential gain is over the potential lose and the risks involved.

No, I don't think I am mistaking anything. Even if the Sox swap Beckett for a young veteran RF to fill the RF spot for the next 4 or 5 seasons, it would leave the Sox with 3 starting rotation spots to fill and a bullpen to rebuild. That's a 4th place team. If instead they get a premium bullpen arm and a 5th starter for Beckett, they are still short 2 starters (1 being a top of rotation guy) and they still need to significantly rebuild the bullpen. Again IMO, that equates to a 4th place team. We are not going to get a better starter than Beckett in a trade for Beckett, so in every scenario we need to replace a top of rotation guy. Unless the Sox are prepared to go hog wild in the FA market, IMO if you lose Beckett and Papelbon in the same season, you will be fighting for 3rd place at best. What scenario can you envision where Beckett gets traded and Papelbon leaves and we are a playoff caliber team?

[FredLynn]

No' date=' I don't think I am mistaking anything. Even if the Sox swap Beckett for a young veteran RF to fill the RF spot for the next 4 or 5 seasons, it would leave the Sox with 3 starting rotation spots to fill and a bullpen to rebuild. That's a 4th place team. If instead they get a premium bullpen arm and a 5th starter for Beckett, they are still short 2 starters (1 being a top of rotation guy) and they still need to significantly rebuild the bullpen. Again IMO, that equates to a 4th place team. We are not going to get a better starter than Beckett in a trade for Beckett, so in every scenario we need to replace a top of rotation guy. Unless the Sox are prepared to go hog wild in the FA market, IMO if you lose Beckett and Papelbon in the same season, you will be fighting for 3rd place at best. What scenario can you envision where Beckett gets traded and Papelbon leaves and we are a playoff caliber team?[/quote']

 

We are not going anywhere next year whether or not we keep Beckett. Currently our SP are Beckett/Lester/Buchholtz and ???. I certainly don't want Wakefield back under ANY circumstances; Lackey and Matsusaka are finished for 2012 already (Matsusaka is probably finished for his Sox career). We will need not five SP but around SEVEN SP realistically, maybe eight. Three will reside at Pawtucket or in the pen. Aceves could fill one of those spots, but thats a lot of quality SP to expect to obtain if you think we are serious contenders this year. I just can't see it, not with our other holes.

[User Name]

We are not going anywhere next year whether or not we keep Beckett. Currently our SP are Beckett/Lester/Buchholtz and ???. I certainly don't want Wakefield back under ANY circumstances; Lackey and Matsusaka are finished for 2012 already (Matsusaka is probably finished for his Sox career). We will need not five SP but around SEVEN SP realistically' date=' maybe eight. Three will reside at Pawtucket or in the pen. Aceves could fill one of those spots, but thats a lot of quality SP to expect to obtain if you think we are serious contenders this year. I just can't see it, not with our other holes.[/quote']

 

Really?

 

If the Sox sign a couple bullpen pieces, a good starter, and get a RHH OF as well as some SP depth they're not going anywhere? News to me.

 

They were the best offensive teams in the Majors last year and were a game away from the playoffs. How can you be so certain that they won't make the playoffs next year, specially if they add the second Wild Card team?

[Elktonnick]

No' date=' I don't think I am mistaking anything. Even if the Sox swap Beckett for a young veteran RF to fill the RF spot for the next 4 or 5 seasons, it would leave the Sox with 3 starting rotation spots to fill and a bullpen to rebuild. That's a 4th place team. If instead they get a premium bullpen arm and a 5th starter for Beckett, they are still short 2 starters (1 being a top of rotation guy) and they still need to significantly rebuild the bullpen. Again IMO, that equates to a 4th place team. We are not going to get a better starter than Beckett in a trade for Beckett, so in every scenario we need to replace a top of rotation guy. Unless the Sox are prepared to go hog wild in the FA market, IMO if you lose Beckett and Papelbon in the same season, you will be fighting for 3rd place at best. What scenario can you envision where Beckett gets traded and Papelbon leaves and we are a playoff caliber team?[/quote']

 

No you conditioned the hypothesis with a strawman answer that didn't fit the original proposition. If they can get what they want in return they will. If they can't they won't. That was the way it has been simply put at the outset. It isn't so complicated. Paplebon is gone andd irreleevant.

[User Name]

No you conditioned the hypothesis with a strawman answer that didn't fit the original proposition. If they can get what they want in return they will. If they can't they won't. That was the way it has been simply put at the outset. It isn't so complicated. Paplebon is gone andd irreleevant.

 

They could trade Beckett for a good RF and some cash considerations, then sign two starters and a couple BP arms. The sky is not falling whether or not they trade Beckett. There are options.

[a700hitter]

We are not going anywhere next year whether or not we keep Beckett. Currently our SP are Beckett/Lester/Buchholtz and ???. I certainly don't want Wakefield back under ANY circumstances; Lackey and Matsusaka are finished for 2012 already (Matsusaka is probably finished for his Sox career). We will need not five SP but around SEVEN SP realistically' date=' maybe eight. Three will reside at Pawtucket or in the pen. Aceves could fill one of those spots, but thats a lot of quality SP to expect to obtain if you think we are serious contenders this year. I just can't see it, not with our other holes.[/quote']I tend to agree with this, although I can see them competing for a Wild Card spot if they keep Beckett. If Beckett goes, I think 4th place is more likely than a playoff spot, and I am not a big Beckett fan. I got reamed on this forum for calling him a pampered princess in 2008. I think many of us are starting to see his true colors. I wouldn't get too worked up over it. Prima donas are more the rule than the exception today.

[Elktonnick]

They could trade Beckett for a good RF and some cash considerations' date=' then sign two starters and a couple BP arms. The sky is not falling whether or not they trade Beckett. There are options.[/quote'] No those aren't all the options. Only the ones you have posited.

[a700hitter]

No you conditioned the hypothesis with a strawman answer that didn't fit the original proposition. If they can get what they want in return they will. If they can't they won't. That was the way it has been simply put at the outset. It isn't so complicated. Paplebon is gone andd irreleevant.

What could they want to get that would make them better in 2012. You haven't said. I am not asking you what is available. I hate that question, because none of us could possibly know the answer. What do you think they would want to get in return for Beckett that would improve the team in 2012? I really don't see the possibility.

 

Losing Papelbon is not irrelelvant, because it is much harder to replace multiple major pieces than 1 major piece without delving into the FA market.

[User Name]

No those aren't all the options. Only the ones you have posited.

 

What i meant when i said "there are options" was literally "there are options". Not only the ones i posted but several other scenarios which we have no idea about.

[Elktonnick]

What could they want to get that would make them better in 2012. You haven't said. I am not asking you what is available. I hate that question, because none of us could possibly know the answer. What do you think they would want to get in return for Beckett that would improve the team in 2012? I really don't see the possibility.

 

Losing Papelbon is not irrelelvant, because it is much harder to replace multiple major pieces than 1 major piece without delving into the FA market.

 

What I should have written to more accurately reflect the the thought I was making was losing Paplebon is relevent now because Paplebon is already gone. Theey will sign a reliever to replace him, maybe not as good, but only margianlly so. In any case this is the best year for closers on the market. They do need a fifth starter Aceves will be the fourth Beckett if he is here Lester and Buccholtz round out the rotation with the 4 A guys in Pawtucket They need a right handed bat. I think that makes Reddick & Lars Anderson tradeable. I think Lowrie & Youklis are tradeable for pitching and to fill the holes unless we don't sign Papi. I see Atlanta as a possible trade partner If we don't sign Papi then they keep Youk. The Sox will concentrate on Middle Relief through FA and by picking up the odd player in side deals. If they can trade Beckett and get what they need they will IMHO because he is trouble. Besides I don't he is likely to play up to his talent this year. He doesn't pitch well two years in a row.

[Elktonnick]

What i meant when i said "there are options" was literally "there are options". Not only the ones i posted but several other scenarios which we have no idea about.

 

thank you for the explanation I understand now what you meant.

[a700hitter]

Theey will sign a reliever to replace him' date=' maybe not as good, but only margianlly so.[/quote'] IMO it will prove to be a very substantial margin.

 

In any case this is the best year for closers on the market. They do need a fifth starter Aceves will be the fourth Beckett if he is here Lester and Buccholtz round out the rotation with the 4 A guys in Pawtucket They need a right handed bat. I think that makes Reddick & Lars Anderson tradeable. I think Lowrie & Youklis are tradeable for pitching and to fill the holes unless we don't sign Papi. I see Atlanta as a possible trade partner If we don't sign Papi then they keep Youk. The Sox will concentrate on Middle Relief through FA and by picking up the odd player in side deals.

I am okay with everything up to this point, with the exception of being able to get anything of any value for Lars. He should have been traded 3 years ago when he had value. It's the next quote where you lose me:

 

If they can trade Beckett and get what they need they will IMHO because he is trouble. Besides I don't he is likely to play up to his talent this year. He doesn't pitch well two years in a row.

What would you want to get for Beckett that you think would improve the 2012 team?

[Elktonnick]

IMO it will prove to be a very substantial margin.

 

I am okay with everything up to this point, with the exception of being able to get anything of any value for Lars. He should have been traded 3 years ago when he had value. It's the next quote where you lose me:

 

What would you want to get for Beckett that you think would improve the 2012 team?

 

Lars would be a filler piece to even out holes in any deal.

 

Re beckett, see what's out there, it depends. It is conditional. It would be a change of scenery trade in the best intersts of both teams. It would have to be a major league ready starter.

[a700hitter]

Lars would be a filler piece to even out holes in any deal.

 

Re beckett, see what's out there, it depends. It is conditional. It would be a change of scenery trade in the best intersts of both teams. It would have to be a major league ready starter.

Good luck. I'm not saying it is impossible, but I'm not going to hold my breath. Like we have to live with no papelbon, I think we will have to live with Beckett reporting to Ft. Myers in or out of shape.

[iortiz]

We are not going anywhere next year whether or not we keep Beckett. Currently our SP are Beckett/Lester/Buchholtz and ???. I certainly don't want Wakefield back under ANY circumstances; Lackey and Matsusaka are finished for 2012 already (Matsusaka is probably finished for his Sox career). We will need not five SP but around SEVEN SP realistically' date=' maybe eight. Three will reside at Pawtucket or in the pen. Aceves could fill one of those spots, but thats a lot of quality SP to expect to obtain if you think we are serious contenders this year. I just can't see it, not with our other holes.[/quote']

 

We need to fill a lot of holes. Specially at our pitching staff. I wouldn't be worry about the offense, even if we don't sign any player at this deparment, we will be fine. On the other hand, if we s*** the bed again with the selection/strategy at the pitching (SP, BP, depth) whatever the combination and names are, yes, with or without Beckett this team won't go anywhere.

[Elktonnick]

Good luck. I'm not saying it is impossible' date=' but I'm not going to hold my breath. Like we have to live with no papelbon, I think we will have to live with Beckett reporting to Ft. Myers in or out of shape.[/quote']

 

If he does comes out of shape that proves the point that he is a punk.

[mvp 78]

Has Beckett been in shape since '03?

[iortiz]

If he does comes out of shape that proves the point that he is a punk.

 

Hopefully BV will put all the roster in shape. if he is capable to do that, this team will prevent a lot of injuries.

[seabeachfred]

Really?

 

If the Sox sign a couple bullpen pieces, a good starter, and get a RHH OF as well as some SP depth they're not going anywhere? News to me.

 

They were the best offensive teams in the Majors last year and were a game away from the playoffs. How can you be so certain that they won't make the playoffs next year, specially if they add the second Wild Card team?

 

Pumpsie and Elk are two of my closest friends on this board as well as the other one we post on, but we depart by miles in evaluating the team next season. I'm with you on this. We need a solid starter, three relievers, a RH hitting outfielder and a closer, and from there we can make a run for it. The fact that we are not going to give up between 10-12 games next year as we always seemed to do with the imbecile who used to manage the team means we can be in the money. Also, unlike most of the people on the various boards, I think Beckett will be just fine. He got away with some s*** because he could. Good players want discipline and direction. When it's not there they revert to being grown-up juveniles.

 

The one place I depart with you is over Ortiz. I do not think we should resign him. We have an upcoming star in Ryan Lavarnway and he needs no more damn seasoning so he can be blocked buy Papi or, God forbid, by the over the hill and useless Varitek. We will be fine if Cherry starts moving a little faster than he has and shows he has the brains and moxie to go out there and start acting like a GM instead of Chicken Little.

[example1]

We will be fine if Cherry starts moving a little faster than he has and shows he has the brains and moxie to go out there and start acting like a GM instead of Chicken Little.

 

I'm pretty sure you got the Chicken Little reference wrong. Chicken Little, AKA Chicken Lickin, AKA Henny Penny, was known for freaking out because he thought the world was going to end when it, in fact, was not. There are plenty of Chicken Little's around, but Ben Cherington isn't it.

[FredLynn]

Really?

 

If the Sox sign a couple bullpen pieces, a good starter, and get a RHH OF as well as some SP depth they're not going anywhere? News to me.

 

They were the best offensive teams in the Majors last year and were a game away from the playoffs. How can you be so certain that they won't make the playoffs next year, specially if they add the second Wild Card team?

 

Sure, if we can get TWO good SP (we have only Beckett, Lester, and CB as decent quality SP right now and we really need about 7-8 of them going into the season), a RHH OF, and a re-do of the bullpen-including a great closer- we could make a run. That is a very very tall order. I don't think we can accomplish that all in one offseason. Furthermore, the clubhouse attitude has to change. Thats just a lot of work. Don't get me wrong. I hope I am wrong. But right now this team is a mess (created by Epstein and Francona).

[boy racer]

What could they want to get that would make them better in 2012. You haven't said. I am not asking you what is available. I hate that question, because none of us could possibly know the answer. What do you think they would want to get in return for Beckett that would improve the team in 2012? I really don't see the possibility.

 

Losing Papelbon is not irrelelvant, because it is much harder to replace multiple major pieces than 1 major piece without delving into the FA market.

[User Name]

Sure' date=' if we can get TWO good SP (we have only Beckett, Lester, and CB as decent quality SP right now and we really need about 7-8 of them going into the season), a RHH OF, and a re-do of the bullpen-including a great closer- we could make a run. That is a very very tall order. I don't think we can accomplish that all in one offseason. Furthermore, the clubhouse attitude has to change. Thats just a lot of work. Don't get me wrong. I hope I am wrong. But right now this team is a mess (created by Epstein and Francona).[/quote']

 

They need one above-average starter for the fourth slot, and someone to fill the fifth spot in the rotation (could be Aceves) plus SP depth. A RHH outfielder, and some bullpen arms. For the issue of addressing the clubhouse culture, they've made the pertinent changes, bringing in Valentine.

 

Buehrle/Jackson/Oswalt/ Kuroda + Cuddyer/Willingham/Ross + three bullpen arms= Offseason.

 

They had a similar amount of work going into the 2007 season, and that turned out ok.

 

The picture you present is a lot bleaker than the one i see.

[FredLynn]

They need one above-average starter for the fourth slot, and someone to fill the fifth spot in the rotation (could be Aceves) plus SP depth. A RHH outfielder, and some bullpen arms. For the issue of addressing the clubhouse culture, they've made the pertinent changes, bringing in Valentine.

 

Buehrle/Jackson/Oswalt/ Kuroda + Cuddyer/Willingham/Ross + three bullpen arms= Offseason.

 

They had a similar amount of work going into the 2007 season, and that turned out ok.

 

The picture you present is a lot bleaker than the one i see.

 

I don't trust Oswalt or Kuroda (injury standpoint), and I don't see them spending the money to get Buehrle or Jackson PLUS Cuddyer unless they are willing to go significantly over the luxury tax threshold. Bullpen arms are a crapshoot, and if Aceves starts, we lose one of our best BP arms. That must be replaced with someone else who is good. Right now we have Bard and Aceves and, I believe, Morales who is doing well this winter playing in South America. Wheeler was offered arbitration and I haven't heard if he has accepted. He would be a plus IMO. So we would need three or four more. We will also be hobbled by the presence of Jenks, who will take up a valuable spot. You want to fill it out with Atchison or Albers? Not me.

Hey, its possible, but its going to be a lot of work and it will take a lot of luck.

[User Name]

I don't trust Oswalt or Kuroda (injury standpoint), and I don't see them spending the money to get Buehrle or Jackson PLUS Cuddyer unless they are willing to go significantly over the luxury tax threshold. Bullpen arms are a crapshoot, and if Aceves starts, we lose one of our best BP arms. That must be replaced with someone else who is good. Right now we have Bard and Aceves and, I believe, Morales who is doing well this winter playing in South America. Wheeler was offered arbitration and I haven't heard if he has accepted. He would be a plus IMO. So we would need three or four more. We will also be hobbled by the presence of Jenks, who will take up a valuable spot. You want to fill it out with Atchison or Albers? Not me.

Hey, its possible, but its going to be a lot of work and it will take a lot of luck.

 

Building a WS winner always takes a lot of luck.

 

I agree with most of what you posted, but i don't think they have to go significantly over the threshold to make the necessary moves. But they will have to either go over it a decent amount or trade some expensive talent.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I thought this thread deserved a few more posts, so here's one. Valentine is now calling out Ortiz for essentially quitting.

 

Former Boston Red Sox manager Bobby Valentine on Tuesday said slugger David Ortiz sidelined himself after a brief return from an Achilles injury -- not because of soreness but because the team made a blockbuster deal that sealed their playoff fate.

 

Ortiz was on the disabled list from July 18 to late August with a strained right Achilles. He went 2 for 4 with two RBIs in a one-game return Aug. 24. The next day, the trade that sent Adrian Gonzalez, Josh Beckett, Carl Crawford and Nick Punto to the Los Angeles Dodgers was made official.

 

The Red Sox were 60-66 on Aug. 24, 13 1/2 games behind the Yankees in the AL East and 8 1/2 games out of a wild-card spot.

 

"He realized that this trade meant that we're not going to run this race and we're not even going to finish the race properly and he decided not to play anymore," Valentine said in an interview airing Tuesday night on "Costas Tonight" on NBC Sports Network. "I think at that time it was all downhill from there."

 

Ortiz returned to the disabled list on Aug. 27 and never came off it.

 

Apparently he's going to be in an interview with Bob Costas tonight at 10 pm EST.

 

What a bitch.

[Palodios]

I thought this thread deserved a few more posts, so here's one. Valentine is now calling out Ortiz for essentially quitting.

 

 

 

Apparently he's going to be in an interview with Bob Costas tonight at 10 pm EST.

 

What a bitch.

 

During the season I didn't have a problem with the guy. But the way he has handled the last month is downright pathetic.