Bobby Valentine agrees ro deal to become Red Sox Manager

[jung]

Damn I did not catch the Costas Tonight interview with Bobby V. Any more revealing items besides "Ortiz quit" after "the trade"?

[SoxFanForsyth]

Damn I did not catch the Costas Tonight interview with Bobby V. Any more revealing items besides "Ortiz quit" after "the trade"?

 

Here's the full recap (per BostonHerald.com)

 

In an appearance on NBC Sports Network that aired Tuesday night, his first extended interview since being fired by the Red Sox, Valentine accused David Ortiz of using his right Achilles injury as an excuse to quit on the season because he didn’t want to play for a team that wasn’t going to contend for a playoff spot after an Aug. 25 blockbuster that sent Adrian Gonzalez, Josh Beckett, Carl Crawford and Nick Punto to the Los Angeles Dodgers.

 

“David Ortiz came back after spending about six weeks on the disabled list, and we thought it was only going to be a week. He got two hits the first two times up, drove in a couple runs; we were off to the races,” Valentine said on “Costas Tonight,” in a partial transcript provided by NBCSports.com. “Then he realized that this trade meant that we’re not going to run this race and we’re not even going to finish the race properly and he decided not to play anymore. I think at that time it was all downhill from there.”

 

The Red Sox’ lone All-Star, Ortiz had returned to the lineup Aug. 24, the day before the Dodgers trade became official, and went 2-for-4 with a double against the Kansas City Royals. But he also aggravated the Achilles strain and received a plasma-rich platelet injection in an attempt to return before the end of the season.

 

Ortiz, it should be noted, was among the players who didn’t have a rocky relationship with Valentine.

 

Valentine took only veiled jabs at the baseball operations staff, noting that GM Ben Cherington or one of his assistants, Brian O’Halloran and Mike Hazen, “always was in the manager’s office before and after games” and alluding to the fact that the front office refused to blame injuries for the team’s performance. But he steered clear of blasting ownership, even saying that John Henry, Tom Werner and Larry Lucchino “treated you like you want to be treated.”

 

“I’m not going to do anything to make their life any more miserable than I’ve already made their life for a season,” Valentine said. “They died almost 100 times last year, and no one needs to die that much.”

 

Valentine also rehashed several episodes during the season, including the spring training incident in which several players confronted him about yelling at shortstop Mike Aviles during a popup drill. Valentine continued to express incredulity over the players’ reaction, hinting that it was indicative of the problems with the culture in the clubhouse that existed before his arrival.

 

“I think that is unique to that group of guys,” Valentine said. “I don’t think it’s indigenous to all of baseball, or at least I pray it’s not.”

 

Later in the interview, though, Valentine said several of those same players have offered their support in the weeks since his firing.

 

“Most guys wished me well,” he said. “Some of the texts I got, I actually teared up.”

 

Finally, and in perhaps the most bizarre moment of the interview, Valentine said his infamous backhanded comment to rookie third baseman Will Middlebrooks — “Nice inning, kid,” after a pair of misplays in the field — never actually happened. Middlebrooks seconded that claim in a tweet Tuesday night.

 

Here’s the problem: It was Valentine who first told the story, unprovoked by any question, during a radio interview in July.

 

Overall, Valentine continued to take the blame for the Red Sox’ worst season in 47 years.

 

“I think it was all my fault,” he said, repeating his stance throughout the season. “I got paid to have that not happen, and it happened. I thought I could get the job done. I thought I could do anything.”

[jung]

Say what!

 

The WMB incident never happened???? V leaked a story that was a lie unprovoked by a writer's question and started that whole hullabaloo for what?

 

Its a baseball team for crying out loud....intended to provide its fans entertainment with its play on the field....not some vehicle for a guy that seemingly cannot generate enough attention on himself no matter how hard he tries so he can scratch that particular itch!

 

V is so whacked that I am not even sure he realizes that if any baseball organization retained any thought that they might hire him again...hell if anybody anywhere thought they might hire him again....I think he just sunk that particular boat.

 

"here guys....let me confirm for you that you cannot trust a single word that comes out of my mouth be it complimentary, provocative, humorous, informational...whatever.....never ever believe that a word that comes out of my mouth is truthful".

 

You thought you could get the job done! How.....what aspect of the job included fabricating stuff for the media forcing them back into your clubhouse to your players to confirm, deny, question etc?

 

How much on point does that makes the Mets GM comments about how a GM eventually just becomes exhausted with the effort to answer the countless media inquiries that result from V simply opening his big mouth and allowing s*** to come out again and again and again. I guess we would be forced to say "exactly".

 

So where does that put the whacko's that hired him for the Sox job on the competence and credibility scale?

[SoxSport]

Ortiz behavior during the season was not exactly team-first--to put it mildly. He gets a lot of stroking because Henry likes him--and he has had some memorable seasons in Boston. But he also had a couple of bummer years recently before he got in shape and bounced back. But let's give him two years, because at the moment their hitting looks thin and they need him--assuming he stays in shape. But he's fragile, and they should tie his pay to games played at his age.

 

As to what Valentine said, it's impossible to tell what was on Papi's mind when he took the rest of the season off. From his prima donna me-first inclinations, I suspect he was thinking more about next year's contract than this year's team. He wanted no part of endangering his contract situation with a serious injury. Considering the money involved, you can't blame him. But you have to wonder just how serious a threat of an achilles blowout was. I read the doctors said not serious. But to Valentine, who was still trying to win, Papi was waving the white flag. So V didn't like it.

 

I also read V got no scouting reports, etc fom the FO during the season. No help in stats of opposing teams, etc. If true, it suggests a dysfunctional, badly run organization divided in factions working against each other. It's no wonder the team collapsed--BEFORE Valentine. I emphasize before, because V seems to be the object of vilification right now in the media, chat groups, etc.

 

V's big mouth has given people a scapegoat for the Red Sox problems. But he wasn't the problem. He just didn't solve the problem. No manager could have solved their problems without the full cooperation of the organization--which V didn't have. Probably the source of V's bitterness at individuals.

[jung]

I have got to say...it is getting to the point where you have to question the relevance of a manager in MLB in any sense. Somehow the comment that "somebody has to fill out the lineup card" no longer seems sarcastic at all.

 

Heck give 700 the job...give me the job. At least we would treat the job and the players with some degree of respect unlike V apparently...unlike knuckleheads like the Mariner's Manny now out on the street again. I guarantee you that if the job boils down to what I can identify, give me a competent set of assistant coaches and I could do that job....I certainly have enough business management experience to handle the organizational responsibilities and my baseball instincts are as good as anybodies.

 

Give me a hitting coach that can actually help the hitters, a pitching coach that can actually help the pitchers, a bench coach so that I have an extra pair of eyes, ears and another baseball brain to pick and a bullpen coach in tune with the pitchers and the pitching coach and a decent enough coach in the third base box and I am in business.

 

Sort of gives you a better feel for a guy like Tito, who could handle the media spotlight and maybe simply followed the very simple Dr's Credo of "first do no harm" in his managerial approach. It is entirely possible that we as fans want to overcomplicate the job of Manager and in our effort to insert ourselves often complain that this manager or that manager never does thus and so and seems like a bump on a log when it comes to in-game tactics etc. Maybe the best of them realize that much of what we call "in-game tactics" are simply hunches, some right, some wrong, some supported by statistical odds and averages, some not.

 

I think I am coming to the conclusion that Managers are at their best in big game situations when their players cannot often even remember to breath. Keep your guys from making errors of omission on the field, like forgetting to breath, make sure your pitcher and catcher are on the same page in big game situations where the game is going to be won or lost on one swing of the bat, manage your bullpen correctly, put guys in position to succeed instead of putting them in positions to fail and fill out the line up card correctly and you are just about doing what you can do effectively. If your players know that you see your function as putting each of them in positions to succeed as often as possible, you will earn their respect. I don't believe anything else will do that for a manager.

 

I even tend to think first time managers make the same mistake we make as fans, trying to make themselves relevant in ways that simply at the end of the day fail, like Farrell continually running the Jays into outs on the base paths in his first effort as a manager.

[jung]

The Red Sox "organization" appears as dysfunctional and disorganized as can be. Choosing V to manage their team was nothing more than another highlight of their dysfunction.

 

V was not the problem but V was not the answer either and I don't think there is a snowballs chance in hell of V being the answer as manager for any team. That was a bad bad choice.

 

As for Ortiz...Ortiz is a product of the CBA and the incredible amount of money available for teams to toss around mainly because of the value of cable TV contracts. As long as the guaranteed contract exists in baseball, and there are these huge pools of monetary resources for teams to dip into, and for players to crave, instances like Ortiz and his contract and things like continued PED usage will continue to plague baseball. It should be no surprise to anybody that Ortiz has been linked to PED usage at least in the past. That behavior is similar to this behavior. David Ortiz simply focuses a great deal of public and private effort on negotiating his contract. It is that simple. He is not a prima dona as much as he has taken a pragmatic position on the amount of money available to him under the current dynamics that rule baseball. At least Ortiz gives us the goods on the back end of the deal. He performs or at least he has performed. Giving him two years at this point might be dumb as dirt but clearly the Sox are not willing to risk being wrong at this point. If baseball had a proper CBA, they would not be backed into that corner. In fact giving Ortiz two years might have been the only way of getting some assurance that Ortiz would not shut it down again during the 2013 season. He is an older player. He is likely to suffer something during the season. What is to prevent him from simply not "in his estimation" being healthy enough to come back from such an injury? Nothing that is what. The only way for the Sox to get out from under this mess with Ortiz was to cut him away and see him come back to town in another uni. All things being equal, based on what we know, this might have been the best decision the Sox could have made.

 

Where it not for the phenomenon of cable TV contracts and the dynamic that has added to baseball at this particular moment in time, baseball would be struggling under the weight of the guaranteed contract right now.

 

Its owners are not at this moment disposed to tackle the inherent problems baseball has at this moment. It simply cannot afford a work stoppage, not with these monster TV contracts and opportunities right in front of them. Something the NHL is apparently to stupid to figure out. However the guaranteed contract was a fork in the road that should have been resisted at all costs....it never should have happened. If the owners of that era had a dime's worth of sense and got themselves proper representation in its initial negotiations with the PA, it never would have happened. It is actually a burden for both the owners and the players although the players would be utterly nuts to give it up at this point. What it guarantees is behavior from both owners and players and their agents that is simply not in the long term best interests of the game, behaviors that are destructive to baseball.

 

All of what we see such as the ridiculous two WC post season format is an effort by baseball to nip at the edges of its inherent problems, avoiding addressing them directly at least for now. At least those efforts suggest that MLB and the owners particularly realize that the core agreements that are the underpinnings of MLB are fatally flawed at a very fundamental level.

[mvp 78]

Once the Sox waived the white flag with the trade, I had no issue with Ortiz sitting out and not playing hurt. Why jeopardize your health for a below .500 team?

[jung]

There are already V apologists pressing the "unfair to V" button over the "revelation" that much of what comes out of V's mouth is a fabrication, fortunately not as yet here on this board.

 

Let me try to narrowly focus on why V's ******** is so detrimental to an organization's efforts unless that organization is maybe something like a TV variety show.

 

Any time you are in an environment where your compensation is totally based on doing something that is hard to do well, you resent every single second that is taken away from the time you use to prepare for the task at hand because you have to deal with ********.

 

The fact is, players for example are at work when sports reporters get to query them. They are going to and from batting cages, or bullpen, going to and from the clubhouse, in the clubhouse, in the dugout or on the field preparing for play. If under those circumstances you even once have to scour your memory banks, trying to remember something that in fact never happened in the first place so you can provide a cogent response to a question from a reporter, you will resent it. Once you are confident that it in fact never happened to begin with, you resent it. You resent the time taken away from what you are really trying to do in order to perform at your best.

 

Bobby V does not force his ballplayers or anybody else around him to deal with that once but constantly. It should be clear to us by now that it never stops. If you are a GM or a player, somebody that the media believes has interaction with V on a regular basis you will be stuck scouring your memory banks constantly, trying to treat your relationship with the media, with your teammates and with your manager with a respect that the manager himself clearly does not have. The only way you can scour your memory banks trying to recall the incident, the comment, whatever the question of the day pertains to, you have to defocus from the thing that you are actually trying to do....make yourself a better ballplayer, be a better prepared ballplayer, be a better GM, be a better prepared GM. Add that component of dealing with V with the part of V's make up that forces you to deal with V-speak, his never ending habit of speaking in code and I would be surprised if in a very short time, your head got to the point where it just wanted to explode. So is it any wonder that eventually players very likely want to just punch V right in the mouth if for no other purpose than to finally close off that end of the sewer!

 

V complained in the Costas interview that in retrospect, he should have gotten authority to hire his own coaches so that he had guys acting as his interface with players that "understood" him. Lets put aside for a moment that with regard to his interface with his coaches, V once again has on two different occasions made comments 180* off each other. Frankly, I would not find anybody that actually could tolerate V within the competitive environment of pro baseball somebody I want around my ballplayers. If I were a Red Sox player my worst nightmares from 2012 would have been the very thought of having more goons like V around the clubhouse.

[a700hitter]

Once the big trade was made and the Sox accelerated their death spriarl. It was pretty obvious after the one aborted comeback attempt that Ortiz was not trying to get back on the field. There was no point to him coming back at that point and risking further injury. Ortiz didn't quit on the team. The FO threw in the towel and rightly so. I don't understand all the hubub over V's statement seems to be a fairly obvious fact.

[jung]

The Sox themselves may not have wanted Ortiz back on the field at less than 100%. I don't think the fact of his not coming back is as much a concern to the Sox as the fact that in spite of the huge amount of money teams spend on player contracts, they have boxed themselves into such a PR and a practical corner that they cannot even be part of the discussion. At least from appearances, players are making these decisions unilaterally and well they might under the circumstances.

 

How many times have we discussed on this very board that many players now seem to stay out with injury until they in their own estimation are 100% ready to come back.

 

So I don't think the fact that Ortiz did not come back would be as much disconcerting to the Sox as:

- that the incentives for players to come back and play under circumstances that might not be ideal no longer seem relevant to the players in the decisions that they make

- that the clubs have no tools to bring to bear that even allow them an opportunity to be part of the discussion in any practical sense in spite of the huge amount of money the clubs have tied up in player payroll

 

It is another element of the rather weak hand the owners had dealt themselves in the CBA or more correctly, the weak hand dealt themselves through the very early CBA negotiations and the owner's subsequent unwillingness and inability to deal with the resulting issues at their core. This is why I am not inclined to lump Ortiz in with the many baseball prima donnas. Nick Swisher is a prima donna. David Ortiz is just making a pragmatic decision based on the dynamics that control baseball today.

[Elktonnick]

The BV interview is interesting for historical purposes only. Most of the actors are gone. From the historical perspective only , it does tend to confirm what many thought was going on with this team since September of 2011.

 

I am among those who think that from a team chemistry question alone, the remaining problem cases are with the pitching. Ortiz, in the grand scheme of things, is not a serious problem no matter how his contract is worked out. The personality problems are centered among Lester,Lackey et al. Maybe Farrell can have some influence there. Even if he does it is still a question of talent. They don't have much!

 

This team is lacking playoff caliber talent at 1st, SS, LF, Catcher and perhaps RF and Center, depending on what happens with Ellsbury and Ross. And we haven't even begun to discuss the rotation and bull pen.

 

I for one think Lester is slipping and is vastly overrated. Buchholtz is at best a number 3. This leaves Dubront who isn't consistent and is perhaps a 4 or 5. And, then we come to Lackey. The FO hopes that he can return to form, assuming he isn't the clubhouse poison many believe him to be.

 

As far as the bullpen, it is stocked with middle relievers and perhaps a set up guy. I am not convinced that Bailey is bona fide playoff contender's closer.

 

By my count the sox have more holes than a pound of Swiss Cheese.

 

As we used to say when I was a kid back in the late fifites and early sixties as term of futility, "Good luck to you and the Boston Red Sox" Farrell is going to need it.

[jung]

I actually do think as I did before the 2012 season that the number of question marks and outright holes in this Sox roster will make competing in 2013 tough. The Sox have to make several moves and all of them have to work out. Plus the existing question marks all have to end up on the plus side of the ledger. That is a tall order.

 

Maybe the result will be that Farrell gets some runway. The notion that this has been a loaded team has not worked out for anybody the last couple of years. It was not a loaded team to begin with.

[Behindenemylines]

BV managing days are over. I can't see another team bringing him in to manage. He is like a three ring circus. He just doesn't know when to keep his yapper shut. There is not a bridge out there that he hasn't burned. Papi shutting down to get ready for 2013 makes sence. Now if he comes to camp out of shape and a fat a_ _ then I may change my mind.

[Palodios]

BV managing days are over. I can't see another team bringing him in to manage. He is like a three ring circus. He just doesn't know when to keep his yapper shut. There is not a bridge out there that he hasn't burned. Papi shutting down to get ready for 2013 makes sence. Now if he comes to camp out of shape and a fat a_ _ then I may change my mind.

 

You never know, some small market team in rebuilding mode could take him for publicity.

[SoxSport]

http://espn.go.com/boston/mlb/story/_/id/8548128/tim-bogar-responds-bobby-valentine-criticism-boston-red-sox-coaches

 

Bogar says in this Edes' article that, as bench manager, he did what "Ben told me to do."

 

Not what the manager told him to do, mind you, but what the GM told him to do. Can you imagine LaRussa or Leyland having a bench coach that bypassed them? Even Farrell had his bench coach in Lovullo.A sign of organizational dysfunction, and a clue about the source of Valentine's obvious frustrations.

 

Of course, Bobby's a damn fool for mouthing off to the media about his players (make that the FO's players).Maybe he really wanted to mouth off about his coaches and upper management, but that is taboo in any organization. You never criticize the people above you--only the ones below you.

 

I guess the Red Sox way of dealing with the dysfunction is to hire an insider like Farrell, and have him bring in his own coaches. Makes sense in lieu of firing everybody south of Lucchino.Farrell will do OK because he has the ear of the front office. Life is simple.

[jacksonianmarch]

Bobby V should have kept his mouth shut about his coaches, though. He just killed their careers