John Lackey to undergo Tommy John surgery

[redsoxbeatz]

I bet he isn't even having Tommy John. Lackey sucks huge cock and drinks beer on the job; red sox approached him and are like, 'hey, let's just say you're having TJ surgery and you cant play next year & youll still get your money' lackey is like, 'f*** yea, i suck at baseball anyway!'

 

 

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@ RSFFL305 ... dude, I want MLB.TV for next year.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

2021 like everyone else

[jung]

I have been struggling with this since the TJ announcement was made. I have a bad habit of applying my own business sense and experience to the business of baseball. While I know that is wrong, my own business experience is all I really have to draw upon.

 

Lackey got all the money in the year he made the deal with the Sox right. He was the top pitcher in that FA market and he got top pitcher money for that year. The language that the Sox had inserted in the contract regarding his elbow seems not to really mean much in practical terms. Sure his contract is insured but insurance does not cover the contract at full value nor does it go back and recover the lost games and it does not suddenly put somebody else in that uniform pitching for the Sox. So given that the Sox clearly had some concerns I have to believe that at the time they must have at least made an effort to sign Lackey for a lower number. While I am only guessing Lackey and his agent must have rejected that. What I don't understand is why the Sox did not just push back from the table. Even if the Sox did not make an offer at less money that Lackey rejected why not just push back from the table anyway?

 

The Sox had their three big guys and surely wanted/needed another starter but it sure as hell did not need to be Lackey and his damaged elbow.Hindsight is 20/20 but based on the 2010 and 2011 results, we never got a "healthy" Lackey out of that deal and now he is another guy on the shelf going through surgery and rehab. You could argue that Lackey pitched innings but if they did not have Lackey they would have gotten somebody else.

 

Sure, arms can be damaged and any pitcher can suffer an injury but in this case the Sox would not have been looking at the possibility of an issue, they had a real issue staring them in the face before signing on the dotted line.

 

So I am asking because I just don't know why they went through with it and even though Theo is gone I have to admit that the actual reality of the Lackey deal has really left me adrift. if anybody has a rational for having gone through with it believe me I have no argument in rebuttal and don't even want to try to make one. I am just really lost and trying to understand.

[Brennan]

I bet he isn't even having Tommy John. Lackey sucks huge cock and drinks beer on the job; red sox approached him and are like, 'hey, let's just say you're having TJ surgery and you cant play next year & youll still get your money' lackey is like, 'f*** yea, i suck at baseball anyway!'

 

 

--

 

@ RSFFL305 ... dude, I want MLB.TV for next year.

 

 

 

Just wanted to point out that you have the best sig ever.

[Laser Show]

How would you guys feel about a 1 year flyer on Jamie Moyer? He's been pitching bullpen sessions for awhile and says his arm feels brand new after TJ last june.

[Palodios]

How would you guys feel about a 1 year flyer on Jamie Moyer? He's been pitching bullpen sessions for awhile and says his arm feels brand new after TJ last june.

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Laser Show]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

You laugh, but there's no reason he can't outperform Wakefield, Lackey, Miller, Wieland, or whoever else the Sox have stashed away. If he is serious about feeling completely rejuvenated, there is no reason he can't pitch at the same level he did when he was 40 (it feels weird saying that).

 

Don't get me wrong, I'd rather see Buehrle and another proven starter come in, but I wouldn't feel bad at all with Moyer going out every 5th day.

[Cask N Flagon 76]

His 5.54 ERA and 1.82 WHIP

 

 

 

Which is a very small sample to even come up those stats. I say we give the kid a

chance can't hurt considering Bedard is as fragile as a china doll.

[Palodios]

You laugh, but there's no reason he can't outperform Wakefield, Lackey, Miller, Wieland, or whoever else the Sox have stashed away. If he is serious about feeling completely rejuvenated, there is no reason he can't pitch at the same level he did when he was 40 (it feels weird saying that).

 

Don't get me wrong, I'd rather see Buehrle and another proven starter come in, but I wouldn't feel bad at all with Moyer going out every 5th day.

 

We're talking about a 49 year old non-knuckleball pitcher, coming back a year after Tommy John, who pitched to an ERA just below 5 in the national league the last two years he was healthy. He'll make John Lackey look like Randy Johnson in the AL East.

[Cask N Flagon 76]

Really? When healthy' date=' Matsuzaka provides, at the least, league average innings. He sure would have come handy this year as the pocket collapsed around the quarterback.[/quote']

 

 

Ok but is Matsuzaka going to be Healthy that is the question?. I mean granted he would

have given us someone to fall back on last year when the dam broke but would the elbow

stay strong and would his overall health be a factor.

[Palodios]

Ok but is Matsuzaka going to be Healthy that is the question?. I mean granted he would

have given us someone to fall back on last year when the dam broke but would the elbow

stay strong and would his overall health be a factor.

 

What the Red Sox needed last year was depth. Dice-k should be able to provide that in 2012. Counting on him as anything better than a #6/#7 starter however would not be a good idea.

[Laser Show]

I've read that Matsuzaka will not be ready until the all-star game. I would not go into 2012 expecting much, if anything, out of him.

[Cask N Flagon 76]

Buehrle is a 3/33-3/39 pitcher' date=' and worth every cent. He is [b']not[/b] a #5, and probably not even #4 on the Sox. His track record is much better than Buchholz, and I think if we sign him, he shows up as the #3.

 

He is not on the decline yet, and we can easily 2-3 more peak years from him. It seems like people are thinking he is 38 and just came off a 150 IP 4.75 ERA year.

 

 

The sox will not bump Bucholz down to a 4th or 5th starter over Burhele mark my words.

I do believe Burhele can be a very good 4th starter in the rotation something that we

truly lacked last year and the year before that.

[Cask N Flagon 76]

That's a pretty crappy argument you could use for Edwin Jackson against just about anybody' date=' including Felix and Verlander. I'd rather get someone who I knew would give quality innings.[/quote']

 

 

Jackson has the past 2 years has gone well over 200 IP+. I think he would be a great

addition as the 5th starter behind Burhele as the fourth starter.

[Dojji]

We're not getting both Jackson and Buehrle when our payroll is already this bloated.

 

2 years without playoff revenue to provide ROI for Henry's inflated payrolls suggests to me that the team will be looking to find ways to reduce the payroll for each of the next couple seasons. Henry doesn't strike me as a man who wants to sustain losses indefinitely -- very few people in his line of work are. We're not the Yankees and the pocket does have a bottom.

[SoxSport]

We're not getting both Jackson and Buehrle when our payroll is already this bloated.

 

2 years without playoff revenue to provide ROI for Henry's inflated payrolls suggests to me that the team will be looking to find ways to reduce the payroll for each of the next couple seasons. Henry doesn't strike me as a man who wants to sustain losses indefinitely -- very few people in his line of work are. We're not the Yankees and the pocket does have a bottom.

 

They will have to cut payroll to sign any new players. They have Tek, Wake and Drew coming off the books to pay for AdGon. But they will have to unload Pap or Papi to create salary to sign anybody new.

 

Cherington sounds like he doesn't want to tamper much with the status quo. I think he has to be a bit bolder than that. These guys can't tread water, particularly with older players. They have to cut the cord.

 

The talk in the Globe about trading Youks is unwise. The guy is a salary bargain, and a great replacement at DH who can play positions. Besides, he's the only RHd power bat in the lineup.They can't trade him.

 

If they want to be bold, they should unload Pap and Papi, use the money to get Cuddyer and a pitcher, and make Bard the closer. It's Bard's time. That's what he's been groomed for. Next year, he'll be a better pitcher than Pap.This year, their WAR's were close--Pap--2.0, Bard--1.7. Even though Pap had a contract yearand Bard faded in Sept from overwork.

[jacksonianmarch]

That's a pretty big difference in WAR when you consider their position. Sometimes you baptize by fire. Maybe Bard is ready, but he hasnt shown a lick of that thus far.

[mvp 78]

That's a pretty big difference in WAR when you consider their position. Sometimes you baptize by fire. Maybe Bard is ready' date=' but he hasnt shown a lick of that thus far.[/quote']

 

Yeah, if next year is Bard's time, we have an 87 win team on our hands. No thanks.

 

We don't need Cuddyer, the offense was not an issue.

[User Name]

That's a pretty big difference in WAR when you consider their position. Sometimes you baptize by fire. Maybe Bard is ready' date=' but he hasnt shown a lick of that thus far.[/quote']

 

I agree that they should keep Papelbon, but this is a misconception about WAR. The people who created the formula people use at this site (Fangraphs) have said that it's not supposed to be accurate to the decimal level, meaning that the difference between 1.7 and 2.0 may be smaller or bigger than we think, but there's no sure way to know.

 

On a side note, why is a line from what Cherington said in his first appearance as Sox GM indicative of his off-season plan?

 

Also, the Red Sox have made a ton of money the last two seasons even without playoff revenue. Saying that they can't increase payroll because of a lack of profit is false.

[Palodios]

Yeah, if next year is Bard's time, we have an 87 win team on our hands. No thanks.

 

We don't need Cuddyer, the offense was not an issue.

 

If the Sox get rid of Ortiz, that will change the offense significantly.

[jung]

Actually Paps faded in September as well, also from overwork. Aceves is the only guy that survived it although for the life of me I don't know how. He probably survived it because he has not been a Red Sox long enough for their vaunted conditioning program to turn him into the bowl of jello the rest of them have become.

 

Frankly, they play like a 87-92 win team regardless of who is closing and while I am fine with resigning Paps as long as we don't pay him Rivera money this team has bigger problems than who is pitching in the 9th inning. Sign him...don't sign him...just don't pay him too much and don't waste a bunch of time getting it done as they have to do something about the other 8 innings so that Paps comes in the game with at least a Save Opportunity on the line.

[Dojji]

I agree that they should keep Papelbon, but this is a misconception about WAR. The people who created the formula people use at this site (Fangraphs) have said that it's not supposed to be accurate to the decimal level, meaning that the difference between 1.7 and 2.0 may be smaller or bigger than we think, but there's no sure way to know.

 

On a side note, why is a line from what Cherington said in his first appearance as Sox GM indicative of his off-season plan?

 

Also, the Red Sox have made a ton of money the last two seasons even without playoff revenue. Saying that they can't increase payroll because of a lack of profit is false.

 

Henry is a hedge fund manager. He has revenue goals he plans for when he runs any business. Businesses that fail to meet that goal shouldn't count on an additional capital outlay. It's not the way Henry's work life has programmed him to think.

 

He's not a pure profiteer owner, he'll spend money if the ROI makes sense, but he is still a financially intelligent man, he's had to be, so let's not pretend that he's going to let the FO milk him dry if they're not returning results.

[Dojji]

Actually Paps faded in September as well, also from overwork. Aceves is the only guy that survived it although for the life of me I don't know how. He probably survived it because he has not been a Red Sox long enough for their vaunted conditioning program to turn him into the bowl of jello the rest of them have become.

 

Frankly, they play like a 87-92 win team regardless of who is closing and while I am fine with resigning Paps as long as we don't pay him Rivera money this team has bigger problems than who is pitching in the 9th inning. Sign him...don't sign him...just don't pay him too much and don't waste a bunch of time getting it done as they have to do something about the other 8 innings so that Paps comes in the game with at least a Save Opportunity on the line.

 

In all honesty, we should at least investigate the possibility of making Aceves the closer if Papelbon departs. He was the one dependable reliever we had in September despite having a workload at least as large as Papelbon's or Bard's. He was our relief ace and turnaround pitcher for most of the year, and really made a name for himself in several high-leverage situations.

 

His low WHIP and good k/bb stats suggest that he's within the performance window of an acceptable closer. He wouldn't be Mo Rivera, but he'd get the job done within a reasonable standard. He isn't the sexy pick, but it's an idea worth investigating.

[User Name]

Henry is a hedge fund manager. He has revenue goals he plans for when he runs any business. Businesses that fail to meet that goal shouldn't count on an additional capital outlay. It's not the way Henry's work life has programmed him to think.

 

He's not a pure profiteer owner, but he is still a financially intelligent one, so let's not pretend that he's going to let the FO milk him dry if they're not returning results.

 

You need to spend money if you want to make money.

 

If he wants to gain some playoff revenue, Henry is sure to understand that he needs to improve the product, and the product was very close to making the playoffs this season.

 

Also, you can be certain that, because they had insurance on Lackey (and the clause in his contract tells you they did) some of the would-be Lackey salary money will be re-invested on the team.

 

If your point was that they will stick to the luxury tax threshold, i would believe you, but i'm not buying that he won't increase payroll as far as the luxury tax permits.

[Dojji]

But his recent capital investments aren't resulting in that ROI. That means he needs to make sure he's spending money on the right things. And he may choose to wait until he's out from under some encumbering assets before he goes back on the offensive monetarily speaking.

 

I'm not suggesting he's gonna go Jeff Loria on us, but I wouldn't expect the pedal to exactly hit the floor anytime soon. They just tried that and it blew up in their faces. So the Sox might fade back towards the pack a bit in terms of payroll for awhile.

 

The new manager is probably going to have to work with the tools he has, even if some of them are tools in the more colloquial sense.

[jung]

He's not a pure profiteer owner, he'll spend money if the ROI makes sense, but he is still a financially intelligent man, he's had to be, so let's not pretend that he's going to let the FO milk him dry if they're not returning results.

 

Much like a loan from a bank, the more you need it the harder it is to get. I agree that Henry has goals for both the top and bottom lines and he is not going to be particularly interested in an argument from the FO that they spent all the money and have not gotten much for it so "give us more money John". He would actually be more prone to loosen the purse strings if they had a better record of success,.

 

I would be willing to bet that he has budgeted for more payroll already but not to the extent that the FO is going to be able to use new money to make big signings for this year coming.

[User Name]

But his recent capital investments aren't resulting in that ROI. That means he needs to make sure he's spending money on the right things. And he may choose to wait until he's out from under some encumbering assets before he goes back on the offensive monetarily speaking.

 

I'm not suggesting he's gonna go Jeff Loria on us, but I wouldn't expect the pedal to exactly hit the floor anytime soon. They just tried that and it blew up in their faces. So the Sox might fade back towards the pack a bit in terms of payroll for awhile.

 

The new manager is probably going to have to work with the tools he has, even if some of them are tools in the more colloquial sense.

 

Assets like JD Drew, Mike Cameron , Jason Varitek and Tim Wakefield?

 

My point isn't that they're going to make a huge splash in the FA market. It's that they will make improvements to the team within the realm of what is logically possible without hitting the luxury threshold.

[Laser Show]

The FA market isn't that great this year. They could sign a few short term deals for 2012 and try to make a big splash in 2013, when their top tier MiLB talent is ready, and Kemp, Ethier, Wright, Cain, Greinke, Hamels, Haren, Marcum all become FAs.

 

I'm not saying give up on 2012, I just don't think they should make any rash decisions and sign mid-level players to exorbitant deals.

[Dojji]

Every market always looks good 2 years away because all the last minute signings and trade-and-sign deals haven't happened yet. I wouldn't count on a quarter of those guys to actually hit the market.

 

The only guy I'd give more than even odds of failing to sign with his current team is Zack Greinke. Maybe the Dodgers are in enough disarray to let good players go, if they can't get rid of McCourt, but it's too far out to say that as if it's definitely gonna happen that way.

[User Name]

There's not much to be done either way.

 

What they need is a legitimate number 4 starter (Buehrle or Jackson, both is not happening) and a couple of guys to provide SP depth.

 

Signing Aramis Ramirez and letting go of Ortiz should be contemplated if the price is right, keeping RF open for the kids and allowing for essentially a contract swap that would fix the "a little bit too much left handed hitting" problem.