John Lackey to undergo Tommy John surgery

[Elktonnick]

Bard was drafted as a starter and was absymal in the minors. It wasnt until they cleaned up his mechanics' date=' shortened his arsenal and moved him to the stretch that he found success. You risk undoing everything if you move him back[/quote']

 

Thanks for the clarification. Although that was in first came into pro ball, I just don't see him as a closer. Theere will be a temptation to give him the shot at starting. Whether it happens will depend who comes in as pitching coach and managerIMHO

[3rdManOut]

I think the news about Lackey raises the question about why he was even pitching this year.

They knew the guy had a bad elbow. Why tolerate sub par performance from an injured player?

I guess they were waiting for the time when Lackey had to be made to disappear--or something.

I think it's a disservice to the guy--though maybe he didn't want to have surgery. You don't know.

It changes my perspective about him--pitching hurt. Though he was a bad sign by Epstein.

He should have known Lackey never pitched well for the Angels in Fenway.

 

Your very right on that. Its almost like everyone knew how Lackey pitched at Fenway except Theo himself. Im trying to figure out Theo's reasoning on signing Lackey in the first place. Hey Im no baseball expert here and I will be the first to admit that. However even I knew how he pitched. I was pretty shocked when we got Lackey at first.

[SoxSport]

Cherington said a lot in that news conference. He said they wanted Pap and Papi back,

though they have a out with both on agreeing on a contract.

He did not mention Wake and Tek--at least they're thinking of unloading those two.

He mentioned the need for a RHd bat in the OF, plus another buy low Aceves-type starter.

Yeah, they grow on trees.

He also said Youks is very much in the picture at 3B this year.

Get some balls, kid. Look at Middlebrooke and groom Youks for DH.

 

I don't see enough of 'let's get younger'. They still think the status quo can be a winner.

It will depend on the pitching.You have to wonder how Bard will take to still another set-up year.

[SoxSport]

Your very right on that. Its almost like everyone knew how Lackey pitched at Fenway except Theo himself. Im trying to figure out Theo's reasoning on signing Lackey in the first place. Hey Im no baseball expert here and I will be the first to admit that. However even I knew how he pitched. I was pretty shocked when we got Lackey at first.

 

Theo is no genius. He was studying Greek at Yale when Lackey was getting killed by the Sox as an Angel at Fenway. He's an intelligent guy who worked his way up the PR ranks, and read a few books on sabermetrics. That's all.

 

He's made a lot of mistakes the last few years. I wonder if he was really serious about staying if Tito stayed. My impression is both were pushed out very gently by the upper management.

[jung]

Well I can't imagine that they would say goodbye to Paps because Ortiz wants big dollars. In that scenario it is by-by Dave I would think. As long as Paps does not want 5 years...maybe even 4 is a stretch but the talk is 3 years....thats fine.

[SCM33]

Well this sucks. Hes definately not going anywhere now.

 

In 2013 when he returns....and sucks, hopefully they just cut him.

[mvp 78]

Theo is no genius. He was studying Greek at Yale when Lackey was getting killed by the Sox as an Angel at Fenway. He's an intelligent guy who worked his way up the PR ranks, and read a few books on sabermetrics. That's all.

 

He's made a lot of mistakes the last few years. I wonder if he was really serious about staying if Tito stayed. My impression is both were pushed out very gently by the upper management.

 

I don't know what to make of the first paragraph. Poor use of sarcasm? The ramblings of an insane person?

[Laser Show]

Just do it. Swoop in and sign CC out from under the Yankees nose.

[jung]

Well anytime the guy directly underneath you is let go, it usually is a statement about the overall success about your piece of the organization and there is no way to feel comfortable about that. How many times do we see an assistant coach go and determine that he was made to walk the plank for the most part.

 

Also I really do think Theo came to realize that there was no upward path for him that made sense to him. Is he the kind of guy that can be the kind of President Larry is? I don't think so. And then Theo himself said that the chance that he would be a central figure in the growing Fenway sports enterprises really did not interest him either. So if anything Theo here became something of a dilemma for both sides and both sides have found a way to extricate themselves under terms that....well....have not been concluded. Oh well.

[Dojji]

I'm not sure that this has been said, but I think that Lackey now has to play for the league minimum in 2015 if he missed significant time due to a preexisting elbow injury, which may cover Tommy John Surgery.

 

Straight from Cot's

 

2015 club option at Major League minimum salary if Lackey misses significant time with surgery for pre-existing elbow injury in 2010-14

 

Ahh yes, a "lie about my injury" clause. Those are very stupid whenever they apepar.

 

General managers never outsmart themselves more than when they give players that kind of financial incentive to pretend they're fine when they're not.'

 

Just makes the Lackey contract even more bizarre and boneheaded. NEVER, EVER give a player a large financial reason to lie to you about how hurt he is. They're already inclined to do it because of macho pride. Don't make matters even worse for the medical staff.

[Dojji]

even letting felix doubront get more experience over bedard and lackeys final few starts would have been better

 

Not in any way we could meaningfully discern at the time. Don't forget, we weren't out of the playoffs until literally the lasy day. No matter how much your top players are underperforming, when the players are on the line you use the best of whatever you have.

 

All it would have taken was one lucky break and anything could have happened in October.

[Dojji]

I think the news about Lackey raises the question about why he was even pitching this year.

They knew the guy had a bad elbow. Why tolerate sub par performance from an injured player?

I guess they were waiting for the time when Lackey had to be made to disappear--or something.

I think it's a disservice to the guy--though maybe he didn't want to have surgery. You don't know.

It changes my perspective about him--pitching hurt. Though he was a bad sign by Epstein.

He should have known Lackey never pitched well for the Angels in Fenway.

 

Lackey lied. Repeatedly. Because they were dumb enough to give him a huge financial incentive in his contract to deny he had a problem, or at least deny his problem was the elbow. Remember, it's macho, manly and proper to swear up and down that you're fine, hale and healthy in pro sports. Put money on the table too and there's no way to avoid problems like this.

 

The point is that because he lied, and because the organizations saw fit not to call him on it, we got to suffer through what he was this year. And they likely lost an additional year of service time since Lackey clearly should have gotten TJS sometime at the beginning of this year rather than the end -- that being the case he might have convalesced in time to give us at least 2010 Lackey next year -- which would have been highly welcome out of one of the bottom 2 rotation spots on the whole.

 

Never give an athlete a financial incentive to lie to you. Because he will. Especially if he can rationalize it somehow as being a good teammate, sucking it up and staying out there. That's two highly powerful motivators for a guy like Lackey, and Ego makes three. Heck, Ego, Money and Machismo are the 3 reasons most of these guys are out there trying to make a living this way in the first place. Ultimately the FO set Lackey up for this and what happened this year with this player falls directly on them.

[Dojji]

Just do it. Swoop in and sign CC out from under the Yankees nose.

 

Disregarding the fact that it would be a phenomenally risky idea to sign a player that heavyset going into his mid to late 30's, especially to the kind of deal that would make NYY back off, I agree that it could be amusing and an effective move to disarm a rival.

 

If ever a big market team was over a barrel right now, it's NYY -- they have to give this player literally whatever he wants given the state of the rest of their rotation.

 

Unfortunately that contract would hurt us VERY badly on the backend, since I don't see a lot of resemblance between Sabathia and Wells. Overweight power pitchers don't tend last long after 35 or so, and whoever signs Sabathia is going to bleed for it for the balance of the contract most likely.

[sleepyhollow]

Lackey getting TJ surgery is a convenient way to quiet the fans for 2012, and in 2013 maybe his contract can be picked up for a reasonable price by another team.....ANY team, please. According to Nick Cafardo, the surgery was suggested by Lackey's agent and NOT Doc Yocum. At least we won't have to put up with him in 2012.

[jung]

What did the Doc recommend? Retirement!

 

I have lived through a good many screwed up Sox eras but I am having a hard time comparing this one favorably to the rest.

 

Revenue generation...great job....General quality of effort intended to get another flag up there....Ugh!

[Brennan]

Huh! are you sure you meant Bard not Aceves. Bard was only drafted in 06. Didn't debut until 09. He now has three pitches.

 

 

 

 

What's the matter Elk? Making sure I can't have an opinion on any board?

 

I was just agreeing that Bard is a reliever and not starter material, at least not at this point in his life.

[Muggah]

Interesting pitchers bolded. Thoughts?

 

 

Well if Cherington is sincere about looking to find low risk/high reward SP then I expect we'll see some reclamation projects--a la Blunder. That said, names like Kazmir, Brandon Webb and even Chien-Ming Wang will be bandied around.

[Laser Show]

Disregarding the fact that it would be a phenomenally risky idea to sign a player that heavyset going into his mid to late 30's, especially to the kind of deal that would make NYY back off, I agree that it could be amusing and an effective move to disarm a rival.

 

If ever a big market team was over a barrel right now, it's NYY -- they have to give this player literally whatever he wants given the state of the rest of their rotation.

 

Unfortunately that contract would hurt us VERY badly on the backend, since I don't see a lot of resemblance between Sabathia and Wells. Overweight power pitchers don't tend last long after 35 or so, and whoever signs Sabathia is going to bleed for it for the balance of the contract most likely.

 

There's no way any team gives him a 7-8 year deal. But I wouldn't be completely opposed to offering him 5/125. This would work for multiple reasons.

 

Cherington would make his first big splash, gaining some needed fanfare. It would be against the Yankees. It would be a major blow to a Yankees organization already needing help in the rotation. It would shore up our biggest problem, an innings eater at the top of the rotation. I don't see CC being the next Nolan Ryan, but I do see him being very effective until at least 36-37.

[Dojji]

Sabathia's looking for Cliff Lee money. Maybe even Lee-to-the-Rangers money. And that includes years as well as AAV. There's plenty of teams with a contend-now, pay-later mindset that will probably outbid the Sox right now, because our bloated payroll really hampers us.

[Laser Show]

Sabathia's looking for Cliff Lee money. Maybe even Lee-to-the-Rangers money. And that includes years as well as AAV. There's plenty of teams with a contend-now' date=' pay-later mindset that will probably outbid the Sox right now, because our bloated payroll really hampers us.[/quote']

 

True, but everything that I'm finding is that CC is seeking 5/125 with an option for a 6th.

 

We always tend to forget Yu Darvish is going to be available too.

[mvp 78]

If Ben needs to "make a splash" he's falling into the trap that Theo did all too often. I'm a no on both CC and Darvish. How about 2-3 (depending on if they move Becks) solid starters rather than adding one over priced starter?

[Laser Show]

If Ben needs to "make a splash" he's falling into the trap that Theo did all too often. I'm a no on both CC and Darvish. How about 2-3 (depending on if they move Becks) solid starters rather than adding one over priced starter?

 

I know CC is just a pipe dream and will never happen.

 

I would like to see Oswalt and Buehrle or Jackson come in.

[Meh]

They pay him no matter what. Teams get insurance out on players but i'm not exactly sure how that works.

 

No everyone has insurance. I know Pavano was the most famous case, I believe the Yankees only ended up paying him 11 or 12 million of his 40+ but insurance companies can say no and with Lackey's injury concerns they probably did. I know Pedro Feliciano didn't have insurance on his arm so the Yankees have to pay him his full salary out of their pocket.

[Palodios]

We always tend to forget Yu Darvish is going to be available too.

 

Ten foot pole.

[Dojji]

If Ben needs to "make a splash" he's falling into the trap that Theo did all too often. I'm a no on both CC and Darvish. How about 2-3 (depending on if they move Becks) solid starters rather than adding one over priced starter?

 

Because the solid starters are going to be overpriced too.

[mvp 78]

Ten foot pole.

 

Scott Radinsky!

[mvp 78]

Because the solid starters are going to be overpriced too.

 

I'd take a Buehrle/Oswalt offseason over CC. The contracts would be high dollar, but shorter in length, giving the Sox a few years to develop some young arms.

[Dojji]

I'd take a Buehrle/Oswalt offseason over CC.

 

Yeah, no.

[Palodios]

True' date=' but everything that I'm finding is that CC is seeking 5/125 with an option for a 6th.[/quote']

 

If he's looking for 5/125, he's selling himself short. This is the healthiest pitcher in the major leagues, a true ace, who has proven himself at Yankee Stadium. And is 31 years old. He's a can't-miss guy, but everyone around Talksox seems to think he's going to Philadelphia on a team friendly deal.

[jung]

Does anybody know if 5/125 is what is being suggested as what it would take for Philadelphia to sign CC. I am presuming that what folks are saying is that Philly is where CC wants to go. Is that correct?