2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[mvp 78]

Wut?

 

SBF is a little off the mark here. It wasn't 04 that made other fans hate the team, it was that Sox fans live all over the country and fill up opposing teams' stadiums. (Which was definitely helped by the rise of pink hat nation 99-03.) People hated Sox fans because a lot of us are over the top obnoxious. There were enough "1918" chants and fan taunting in stadiums everywhere (including CA where SBF mentions).

 

The change isn't from other fans' perspectives, it was in SBF's perspective. Sox fans were only "loveable" losers in the eyes of other Sox fans. They were just losers to everyone else.

[Bellhorn04]

The latest on Papi is that 'arbitration experts' think the Red Sox would win their case, and that Ortiz is very open to avoiding arbitration and settling on a 2-year deal.

[SoxSport]

The latest on Papi is that 'arbitration experts' think the Red Sox would win their case' date=' and that Ortiz is very open to avoiding arbitration and settling on a 2-year deal.[/quote']

 

 

The best stats/age comparison I've seen is Konerko, and he's getting about $12.5mil.

 

Papi needs a better agent--or a smaller head.

 

I would say no at this point to a 2-year deal. VG is still out there--for cheap.

[Bellhorn04]

The best stats/age comparison I've seen is Konerko, and he's getting about $12.5mil.

 

Papi needs a better agent--or a smaller head.

 

I would say no at this point to a 2-year deal. VG is still out there--for cheap.

 

Vlad might be close to done though. A 317 OBP and a 733 OPS last year. That's 220 points of OPS less than Ortiz.

[Muggah]

The latest on Papi is that 'arbitration experts' think the Red Sox would win their case' date=' and that Ortiz is very open to avoiding arbitration and settling on a 2-year deal.[/quote']

 

Let's hope like hell they're smart enough not to give Big Diva a two year deal. Enough already with this ridiculous patronage to these sacred cows. One more year and then take a hike, Diva.

[User Name]

A couple of agents are frustrated after dealing with the Red Sox front office/ownership lately as compared to what they were used to in the past. However, there has been quite a bit of praise for GM Ben Cherington.

 

So if Ben's a boob....does this mean that the agents praising him are boobs too?

 

Cafardo feels that the Red Sox missed an opportunity to sign Edwin Jackson to a good value deal at one year, $10MM and shouldn’t let Roy Oswalt slip away now.

 

Wholeheartedly agree.

[example1]

The latest on Papi is that 'arbitration experts' think the Red Sox would win their case' date=' and that Ortiz is very open to avoiding arbitration and settling on a 2-year deal.[/quote']

 

Is it possible that there were strong indications Ortiz was actually going to go to the Yankees if he didn't sign with the Red Sox? I'm not looking for snarky or firery responses here, just genuinely asking.

 

If, last week, Ortiz had signed a one-year $12m deal with the Yankees wouldn't people be freaking out right now? Aren't the Yankees still nominally looking for a bat? I know he's not the ideal piece for them in terms of position, but adding his bat to that lineup (while taking out of Boston) could have been pretty devistating and I wouldn't put it past Cashman.

 

Just consider it for a moment. My first inclination is "let them sign him" but then I think about a) what this board would be saying if Ortiz had signed in NY (Cashman cleaned Cherington's clock) and the Yankees would have a really, really dangerous (more dangerous) lineup, probably on a deal that doesn't actually hurt them (one year).

 

How many millions of dollars would it be worth to keep him from the Yankees? Sox offer 10 and Yankees offer 13 and he goes to NY. Would people be saying "they should have offered him those 3 extra million!"?

 

I'm just wondering if, in this particular case, preventing a player from going to the Yankees might have been a part of the strategy.

 

The same situation, next season, could potentially be countered by signing another significant player like Cole Hamels, for instance. Few people would be complaining if they reallocated Ortiz money for Hamels and slotted Lavarnway into DH. This season, though, that player didn't exist thus limiting their options significantly.

 

I'm convinced that losing Ortiz and signing Oswalt, or losing Ortiz and even signing CJ Wilson would have been percieved as just a mild gain (if that) had Ortiz landed in NY. You may have a different opinion...

[Bellhorn04]

Personally I'll be happy to see Ortiz in a Red Sox uniform again and yes, I think the forum would have an entirely different tone if Ortiz had been let go and he signed with the Yankees. He could do some serious damage playing half his games in that park.

[seabeachfred]

SBF is a little off the mark here. It wasn't 04 that made other fans hate the team, it was that Sox fans live all over the country and fill up opposing teams' stadiums. (Which was definitely helped by the rise of pink hat nation 99-03.) People hated Sox fans because a lot of us are over the top obnoxious. There were enough "1918" chants and fan taunting in stadiums everywhere (including CA where SBF mentions).

 

The change isn't from other fans' perspectives, it was in SBF's perspective. Sox fans were only "loveable" losers in the eyes of other Sox fans. They were just losers to everyone else.

 

Since you back a lot longer than I have MVP and also lived in So. California, I won't argue the point and concede you may be more right than I am. From my perspective of going to Angels games when the Red Sox or Yankees were in town (remember my wife and daughter are diehard Angels fans), I both marveled and rolled my eyes at how ardent Red Sox fans were there but I never viewed them as losers, just a team with miserable luck. That was before I came on board. Yankee fans were the obnoxious ones as far as I was concerned; Red Sox fans had nothing then to be obnoxious about. Again it was from my own perspective but I found Red Sox fans friendlier to the Nth degree than Yankee fans were. In fact it seemed those fans were too put out to even talk to you about baseball as if you weren't in their class. Of course, maybe I gave off the wrong vibe my friend because I had hated the Yankees since I was seven years old.

 

You mentioned 2004 and you are right there. Many fans other than Yankee ones rejoiced when we finally won it all that year but after 2007 I noticed more jealousy and resentment than before. Since I wear some kind of Red Sox clothing every day I was like a magnet for comment. Angels fans hated us more than ever and Dodger fans resented how anyone could root for the Red Sox when their Bums played in the same area as I lived.

 

Again, though, you are right. This is from my perspective, but, remember, I have seen it from both ends.

[example1]

I'm not even saying that the rancor and predictable firestorm on this board would be the main reason to stick him around. I think the firestorm would have been valid because it would have been right. It would be hugely problematic for this club if Ortiz were in NY. That might not be the case in 2013, but in 2012 when there were not ideal replacements available (in the form of great SP) it would have been.

 

If Ortiz comes in and puts up a .900+ OPS and 25-30 HR he will likely have been worth the contract, regardless of the limitations it puts on the club financially, given the possible alternative.

[jung]

It certainly did not look like the Yanks had any interest in Ortiz and the Sox have to stop thinking like your post suggests anyway E1.

 

You cannot play the money game with the Yanks successfully. It is like taking a knife to a gunfight. That is not the way to beat them. All that leads to is expenditures of resources that you should be using to make your team better than you end up using to prevent something that will not likely even happen in the first place. You just move the problem from one spot to another spot.

 

That is in part why the Yanks and Cashman were gloating over the CC signing.

 

That said I don't think the Ortiz arbitration offer had anything to do with the Yankees and I am at least grateful for that. If anything that "logic" would have made the whole damn thing even less palatable.

[jung]

It certainly did not look like the Yanks had any interest in Ortiz and the Sox have to stop thinking like your post suggests anyway E1.

 

You cannot play the money game with the Yanks successfully. It is like taking a knife to a gunfight. That is not the way to beat them. All that leads to is expenditures of resources that you should be using to make your team better than you end up using to prevent something that will not likely even happen in the first place. You just move the problem from one spot to another spot.

 

That is in part why the Yanks and Cashman were gloating over the CC signing.

 

That said I don't think the Ortiz arbitration offer had anything to do with the Yankees and I am at least grateful for that. If anything that "logic" would have made the whole damn thing even less palatable.

[example1]

It certainly did not look like the Yanks had any interest in Ortiz and the Sox have to stop thinking like your post suggests anyway E1.

 

You cannot play the money game with the Yanks successfully. It is like taking a knife to a gunfight. That is not the way to beat them. All that leads to is expenditures of resources that you should be using to make your team better than you end up using to prevent something that will not likely even happen in the first place. You just move the problem from one spot to another spot.

 

That is in part why the Yanks and Cashman were gloating over the CC signing.

 

That said I don't think the Ortiz arbitration offer had anything to do with the Yankees and I am at least grateful for that. If anything that "logic" would have made the whole damn thing even less palatable.

 

If the Yankees were going to sign Ortiz would that have been okay with you? I'm not challenging you, just asking genuinely what you think. I'm asking particlarly with the alternatives for 2012 in mind. What would they have done with that money that would mitigate the (assumed, in this scenario) signing of Ortiz by the Yankees?

 

Also, as far as guaging interest for the Yankees-Ortiz connection, I think there was only a 2-3 week period where Ortiz was available before arb decisions were made. Hard to know who had what interest at that time.

 

This scenario assumes the Sox turn down arb on Ortiz and he plays the market the way Oswalt did with an asking price around 12-14m for one season someplace other than Boston.

 

In 99% of cases I agree with you Jung. It isn't worth getting into these money battles with NY. At the same time, that generally assumes that there are alternatives that can be suitable to replace the missing piece. I'm not convinced there were this offseason. CJ Wilson at 4-6 years would be going in a totally different direction. Fielder wasn't going to be an option for this club. Edwin Jackson isn't a suitable replacement... I just don't see it this year.

[seabeachfred]

The latest on Papi is that 'arbitration experts' think the Red Sox would win their case' date=' and that Ortiz is very open to avoiding arbitration and settling on a 2-year deal.[/quote']

 

Two year deal my ass. If that happens Cherington is even a bigger fool than I think he already is. What if Papi has an off year and starts to go backwards? We're in for another year and another season where out best RH power hitting prospect is blocked. So what the hell, we have to wait until Lavarnway is 27 before he g ets a real shot? That's ********!!!!!! One year deal for Ortiz and then sayonara and congrats for his decade of great contributions to the team. Doesn't Henry or Lucchino know when the hell to turn the fu@@in' page and move on???????:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown

[SoxSport]

Vlad might be close to done though. A 317 OBP and a 733 OPS last year. That's 220 points of OPS less than Ortiz.

 

Yeah. there are better options. Old DHs outside of Boston aren't that popular.

What about Ordonez? Bet he can still hit. Trouble with Papi is Henry has an umbilical cord tied to him. Expensive cord.

[SoxSport]

Let's hope like hell they're smart enough not to give Big Diva a two year deal. Enough already with this ridiculous patronage to these sacred cows. One more year and then take a hike' date=' Diva.[/quote']

 

Papi certainly deserves the name change.

[a700hitter]

If, last week, Ortiz had signed a one-year $12m deal with the Yankees wouldn't people be freaking out right now? Aren't the Yankees still nominally looking for a bat? I know he's not the ideal piece for them in terms of position, but adding his bat to that lineup (while taking out of Boston) could have been pretty devistating and I wouldn't put it past Cashman.

This assumes facts that were not in play, so this is a pure strawman. If the Yankees were willing to pay Ortiz $12 million it would mean that the market for Ortiz would be different than it currently is. The Red Sox misjudged the actual market value for Ortiz. That was a mistake, and that is why they are being criticized. You are flipping the facts on their head and assuming that Ortiz had a $12 million market value. If the Yankees signed him for $12 milion for 1 year, a number of fans would have been upset because that would have been a misjudgment of the market in the other direction. Some fans would have been happy to let him go. What's your point-- that they are damned if they do and if they don't. Sure, you are right about that. Almost any move they make or don't make will have it's detractors. Are looking for unanimous acclaim from fans?

[iortiz]

This assumes facts that were not in play' date=' so this is a pure strawman. If the Yankees were willing to pay Ortiz $12 million it would mean that the market for Ortiz would be different than it currently is. The Red Sox misjudged the actual market value for Ortiz. That was a mistake, and that is why they are being criticized. You are flipping the facts on their head and assuming that Ortiz had a $12 million market value. If the Yankees signed him for $12 milion for 1 year, a number of fans would have been upset because that would have been a misjudgment of the market in the other direction. Some fans would have been happy to let him go. What's your point-- that they are damned if they do and if they don't. Sure, you are right about that. Almost any move they make or don't make will have it's detractors. Are looking for unanimous acclaim from fans?[/quote']

 

Every single fan has a GM/manager in his/her head. SBF already said that and I'm agree with him. Probably I'm misfeeling this but I think that in general (probably the majority) red sox fans do not feel comfortable from what they have seen this offseason beyond whether we are on cheap mode or not. I do not feel comfortable thus far at all. For example, I would have used Ortiz's money in a SP. I would have resigned Wheeler. I would have keept Scutaro. I would have used Lav/Youk at DH. I would have shared part of the load at 3rd base with Aviles. From what I've have seen this offseason and according with our needs, this proposal makes a lot more sense to me than the current one and IMO is not that far in money than the current one.

[seabeachfred]

Every single fan has a GM/manager in his/her head. SBF already said that and I'm agree with him. Probably I'm misfeeling this but I think that in general (probably the majority) red sox fans do not feel comfortable from what they have seen this offseason beyond whether we are on cheap mode or not. I do not feel comfortable thus far at all. For example' date=' I would have used Ortiz's money in a SP. I would have resigned Wheeler. I would have keept Scutaro. I would have used Lav/Youk at DH. I would have shared part of the load at 3rd base with Aviles. From what I've have seen this offseason and according with our needs, this proposal makes a lot more sense to me than the current one and IMO is not that far in money than the current one.[/quote']

 

Hey good friend, my take that we all have a GM-MGR in our head was absolutely spot-on where you're concerned because I think what you would have done would have been a hell of a lot better than what WAS done. Of course it helps that I happen to agree with all your take on this, but I would venture to say that if we could pick 700 and Pumpsie's brain we would get some pretty good suggestions as well. Hell, even User could come up with some good ideas even though he thinks he couldn't do it because he is not the GM. The fact is some of us were thinking about what to do this off season even before Cherington did because he wasn't GM until a few days after the season ended while the vast majority of us were already thinking beforehand what we could do to dig our way out of this mess that Epstein and Francona left us.

[User Name]

Hey good friend' date=' my take that we all have a GM-MGR in our head was absolutely spot-on where you're concerned because I think what you would have done would have been a hell of a lot better than what WAS done. Of course it helps that I happen to agree with all your take on this, but I would venture to say that if we could pick 700 and Pumpsie's brain we would get some pretty good suggestions as well. Hell, even User could come up with some good ideas even though he thinks he couldn't do it because he is not the GM. The fact is some of us were thinking about what to do this off season even before Cherington did because he wasn't GM until a few days after the season ended while the vast majority of us were already thinking beforehand what we could do to dig our way out of this mess that Epstein and Francona left us.[/quote']

 

What the f*** is this supposed to mean, even User??

 

I have my own ideas, and i post them on this board all the time. I even posted a thread about what i would have done in the off-season.

 

Don't try to turn the fact that i fully understand that we don't know the inside workings of the industry and why some things are how they are into a slight on my person for lack of original thought.

[iortiz]

Hey good friend' date=' my take that we all have a GM-MGR in our head was absolutely spot-on where you're concerned because I think what you would have done would have been a hell of a lot better than what WAS done. Of course it helps that I happen to agree with all your take on this, but I would venture to say that if we could pick 700 and Pumpsie's brain we would get some pretty good suggestions as well. Hell, even User could come up with some good ideas even though he thinks he couldn't do it because he is not the GM. The fact is some of us were thinking about what to do this off season even before Cherington did because he wasn't GM until a few days after the season ended while the vast majority of us were already thinking beforehand what we could do to dig our way out of this mess that Epstein and Francona left us.[/quote']

 

Fred, I really thought that we were going to get a solid/healthy SP. I really thought that he was going to be our first move. You warned me. I didn't believe you. Probably your expirience let you see this coming. My bad. The time is running and this possibility is vanishing. Seems like my wishes will not be fulfilled this time again.

[User Name]

I'm scratching my head here.

 

So:

 

A) The Red Sox (despite every record to the contrary) are not going after a starter.

 

B ) Fred knows the thinking and proceedings of the Red Sox FO.

 

My brain is literally melting.

[VA Sox Fan]

I'm scratching my head here.

 

So:

 

A) The Red Sox (despite every record to the contrary) are not going after a starter.

 

B ) Fred knows the thinking and proceedings of the Red Sox FO.

!!!

My brain is literally melting.

 

I can no longer read SBF's posts, for obvious reasons.

 

OUR Sox may as well throw in the towel. Not show up at all. No hope. The sky is Falling. OUR Sox that we have rooted for our ENTIRE lives are DOOMED in 2012. So let's blame Ben, Jason, Timmy and Brian Cashman's wife. WE HAVE TO BLAME SOME ONE when we have our tantrums!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Now I truly know what it feels like to be a VICTIM!!!!!! WAAAAHHHHH. BOOOO HOOOO

[NZSox]

Are we signing another starting pitcher?!

[seabeachfred]

I'm scratching my head here.

 

So:

 

A) The Red Sox (despite every record to the contrary) are not going after a starter.

 

B ) Fred knows the thinking and proceedings of the Red Sox FO.

 

My brain is literally melting.

 

Your brain may be melting because you couldn't tell the forest from the trees and got caught in a maelstrom. What record to the contrary? Where is that starting pitcher you keep saying we're getting? There are only five left that haven't signed and the only really good one will go elsewhere because we won't pay him. Do I know the thinking and proceedings of the Red Sox? Apparently I do because we haven't gotten that pitcher as I have said we wouldn't all along, and we are proceeding to try and make a chicken salad with chicken s***---unless you call what we have signed credible Major League pitchers.

 

Let these names once again roll in your ears.....Cook, Germano, Silva, Maine, Miller Haeger, Padilla. Anyone of those you would want to take on the Yankees in a crucial September series? You sure as hell don't. Does it look like we are going to get that pitcher we need so badly? Doesn't look like it, does it? Of course, I will stand down and issue my mea culpa if we do because I'm not afraid to say it if I'm wrong, but right now I'm reading the front office pretty accurately. I know it shakes your tree but the truth sometimes hurts. You may not like it but as they say in Russia, tough shitsky.

[example1]

This assumes facts that were not in play' date=' so this is a pure strawman. If the Yankees were willing to pay Ortiz $12 million it would mean that the market for Ortiz would be different than it currently is. The Red Sox misjudged the actual market value for Ortiz. That was a mistake, and that is why they are being criticized. You are flipping the facts on their head and assuming that Ortiz had a $12 million market value. If the Yankees signed him for $12 milion for 1 year, a number of fans would have been upset because that would have been a misjudgment of the market in the other direction. Some fans would have been happy to let him go. What's your point-- that they are damned if they do and if they don't. Sure, you are right about that. Almost any move they make or don't make will have it's detractors. Are looking for unanimous acclaim from fans?[/quote']

 

I don't know how many times I simply have to say "I'm not trying to start anything, just asking purely out of curiosity." Yet, you assume I'm "flipping facts on their head" and making a pure strawman.

 

Is asking questions about the way situations could have played out now flipping facts on their head and making strawmen? To what end? What do you think my point is here?

 

Jeez, you're such a domineering king. No wonder this board has become so much less enjoyable since you annointed yourself king.

[User Name]

Your brain may be melting because you couldn't tell the forest from the trees and got caught in a maelstrom. What record to the contrary? Where is that starting pitcher you keep saying we're getting? There are only five left that haven't signed and the only really good one will go elsewhere because we won't pay him. Do I know the thinking and proceedings of the Red Sox? Apparently I do because we haven't gotten that pitcher as I have said we wouldn't all along, and we are proceeding to try and make a chicken salad with chicken s***---unless you call what we have signed credible Major League pitchers.

 

Let these names once again roll in your ears.....Cook, Germano, Silva, Maine, Miller Haeger, Padilla. Anyone of those you would want to take on the Yankees in a crucial September series? You sure as hell don't. Does it look like we are going to get that pitcher we need so badly? Doesn't look like it, does it? Of course, I will stand down and issue my mea culpa if we do because I'm not afraid to say it if I'm wrong, but right now I'm reading the front office pretty accurately. I know it shakes your tree but the truth sometimes hurts. You may not like it but as they say in Russia, tough shitsky.

 

Fred, you really don't know what you're talking about. You simply don't. Don't give me that forest ******** because you're just as clueless as to what they're doing as the rest of us. Everything we post here is conjecture.

 

Apparently i also know their inner workings because I said before the off-season they wouldn't sign Pujols or CJ Wilson. By your logic, that makes me an insider and "right".

[FredLynn]

I can no longer read SBF's posts, for obvious reasons.

 

OUR Sox may as well throw in the towel. Not show up at all. No hope. The sky is Falling. OUR Sox that we have rooted for our ENTIRE lives are DOOMED in 2012. So let's blame Ben, Jason, Timmy and Brian Cashman's wife. WE HAVE TO BLAME SOME ONE when we have our tantrums!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Now I truly know what it feels like to be a VICTIM!!!!!! WAAAAHHHHH. BOOOO HOOOO

 

If you pay attention you will see that Fred is right far more often than he is wrong. His descriptions are often colorful, for sure.

Also, he probably has more real baseball experience than anyone else here.

[User Name]

Brain.....melting....

[a700hitter]

I don't know how many times I simply have to say "I'm not trying to start anything, just asking purely out of curiosity." Yet, you assume I'm "flipping facts on their head" and making a pure strawman.

 

Is asking questions about the way situations could have played out now flipping facts on their head and making strawmen? To what end? What do you think my point is here?

 

Jeez, you're such a domineering king. No wonder this board has become so much less enjoyable since you annointed yourself king.

I am a very Benevolent Monarch. I am letting all the Patriots fan live tonight.

:lol: