2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[FredLynn]

Wait' date=' they did lead the AL in ERA. My bad, i thought you meant the league.[/quote']

 

League=American League

[jung]

It is true that much of what has been posted is based on looking at the team as constructed and trying to make some judgments about that team or looking at it with the addition of one SP of so far unspecified quality and trying to make some judgements about that.

 

I am going to go back to something that I had mentioned early on in this thread but in a different context.

 

The Sox in my view have built a team of very impressive players that occupy most of the starting every day positions and SP roles. Even Drew for all his shortcomings was a pretty decent player. The problem in my view is that they spent all of their money in those top 8 everyday players and the pitchers they thought would end up at the top of rotation offering them long term deals at huge money and then did very little to support them with meaningful backups. Had they not been so focused on these "glamor" signings they might have had more money to balance the payroll between those guys that start on opening day and those top rotation guys and the players that support them. In addition some of those glamor signings not only cost them money in contracts but put a big hole in the farm system where support players better than the McDonalds' of the world might have really helped this team. The falloff has been not just significant but huge as soon as those top 8 every day players or guys intended for the top of the rotation go down. Drew is a good example...Drew goes down and we get who....McDonald!

 

We want to say that the team that gets hot at the end of the year going into the playoffs has the best chance of winning it all. I agree with that. How do you get hot with significant parts of your lineup on the shelf and playing basically with dregs instead of players that can actually have an impact for a short period of time, meaning meaningful backups.

 

Now some of this sunk money is sunk in players that cannot play at all in 2012, they no longer even have an everyday SS of any kind never mind, poor or bad or mediocre or rent-a-wreck....try nobody. They have Youk a year older and in all likelihood more fragile than ever and what is his backup? He is in great shape?....there is is no great shape for his body type. He is aging early. I actually think he might make 120 games this year but I would not count on him for a game more than that and probably less.

 

Those that want to look on the bright side have got to admit that the Red Sox have to many weak spots in the dike and assuming that this particular dike (which is much influenced by chance of injury) will not expose some of those holes is ridiculous. It is professional sports. Some number of guys do not play complete seasons...period! So if I looked at the starting 8, they are a bit weaker right now than when they started 2011 although better than most by a long shot. But they have even fewer support players that can step in. In fact it now looks like they are going to start the season with support players playing at some positions. I do think the OF acquisition will ultimately help them because I think he can play any outfield position to some extent. He might be the best evidence that this organization might have finally learned what it takes to survive and compete in MLB.

 

As for the rotation, that now looks to me like a duplicate of the everyday player situation. They have Buch, the pitching equivalent of Youk in a potential for injury sense in the 3 hole and two guys that you might have wanted as swingmen or in the bullpen actually occupying the 4 and 5 holes, never having started anywhere professionally before. While we have a decent BP, you cannot in a month of Sundays project that BP as better than what we had last year with Aceves, Bard and Pap holding down the fort. It might look better in the sense that there are guys that have no real record of accomplishment that you could project as having good years but the real problem with the pen last year was not the quality of the players. We wore it out. We beat the s*** out of it. Does this year look like it could be more of the same? It sure as s*** does.

 

There are just to many weak spots in this dike and those that want to suggest that we should just wait and see are pissing into the breeze cause we can't do anything about it anyway. We can't change a God Damned thing! But we can look realistically at what this team is and make some judgements about its chances for success and I keep coming back to the same thing. There are simply to many weak spots in this particular dike and the Sox will once again in my view not have enough fingers for those weak spots in the dike once they start turning into holes as there are no adequate substitutes, just like last year.

 

I will be happy to be wrong cause I don't give a rats ass if I am one of the guys that have to eat some forum crow at the end of the year. It is a sports board. In that sense I don't give a crap about having to eat some crow for being wrong and I would prefer to be wrong in this particular case.

 

Now for the intangibles. Here is another popular argument. When those that want to project this team as better are stuck recognizing that when you look at them player by player, at best they are the same as last year, the next argument we have to hear is the intangibles argument.

 

New strength and conditioning guys: This argument is the least substantive of them. I will say it again, strength and conditioning guys in MLB are glorified towel holders. To project on them the kind of impact that their brethren in the NLF have is a mistake. They don't have that kind of control. It is very much up to the player to keep himself conditioned through the season.

 

The medical staff: I had hopes for this one all the way up until a few days ago when somebody posted that this next bunch are from the same association of doctors that Gill was from and as that poster rightfully noted, doctors within the same medical groups adopt the same medical practices. So if this is true prepare for more sparsity with regard to MRI. In addition the medical staff has an impact after injury occurs so their benefit is one that might be relevant after the fact.

 

Taking them from least relevant to most relevant then the management changes are the most relevant intangible in my estimation. However BC is yet another LL lackey. For whatever reason JH likes it this way and that is the way it is. Although I do think that in time what appears to now be a reluctance to expend big dollars in guys that by default, as a group cannot last an entire season leaving nothing for support players will change, not because Theo is gone and BC is here but because I think the whole organization realizes that without spreading the payroll over more players and continuing to feed the major league effort with players in development and under cost control, they are doomed to repeat a succession of 2011's maybe not as dramatically as in 2011 but who gives a s***...losing is losing.

 

As for Valentine, based on his history he is just as likely to blow up like a nuclear bomb as he is to succeed especially with this kind of squad. So it is hard for me to put much value on this intangibles ********. However I do very much think that management and the baseball organization if it has a willingness to spread payroll as I have suggested will build better, more capable teams that are at the same time easier to manage and that take better care of themselves. However that does nothing for our 2012 which unfortunately was tainted by the mind set from the past. That is what in my view produced the Ortiz Arbitration offer.

 

Maybe there was no way out of this one given the 100th year thing. However you cannot convince me that this would not have been a better team with the DH role spread amongst what are still some very big bats for the Sox and with one more real stud of a starting pitcher instead of this thrashing through the trash we appear destined for looking for another starter with no means to rest guys like Youk while keeping their bats in the lineup.

 

For 2012 I see a number of teams that are marginally better than they were in 2011 in the AL and a Sox team that is about the same. Over the 162 games while we will likely focus on what we do against the Yankees and the Rays and Rangers it is that 112th game against Detroit that you lose or that 85th game against the Angels that you lose instead of win that I think will ultimately tell the tail for the 2012 Sox. It will lose more games because it is not better than 2011 while facing many teams that are marginally better than they were in 2011. That is the beauty of the 162. it is a grind. It is a marathon and the pieces that you can insert over that 162 are more important than the Sox have made them in recent history and that is why we have the team we have.

 

On top of everything else no matter how you slice it no matter what you want to argue, the addition of a WC slot is not a benefit to the Sox. It is hard to conceive the Sox as being a true competitor for the division at this point which makes them a competitor for one of those WC spots. That WC spot is not what it used to be when compared to being the division leader. It is better than going home but far worse now than winning the division. A one game play in is truly a crapshoot. Ya' wanna' place a bet on either team winning a one game play in? Literally anything can happen in that case.

 

I do think that it is not a coincidence that MLB is both bringing in the second WC AND making it very painful for teams to exceed the cap in the coming years. If not for that we might be back to a succession of Yankee teams getting to the WS, first winning the division and having that advantage propel them into the WS in more years than anybody wants to see.

 

Now, every God Damned bit of this post is opinion, all of it, based on looking at the players and the organization, just like every other damned post other than those that announce a trade or a signing or something like that. We should dispense entirely with this view that we should not do this and frankly some of you have gotten very close to that line. This is all we can do. If we can't do this, there is no reason for being here at all.

[mvp 78]

I don't have time to read 2,000 word posts. Impressive though.

[example1]

Jung, nobody is saying that you shouldn't post your opinion and given the length of your post, you didn't think that was required.

 

My post was about my own view of whether it is worth arguing the same thing over and over again. After opinions have been stated and stated again I think it is ok to just say "we will see". Nothing wrong with that. You can call it pissing in the wind if you want.

[a700hitter]

Have I accused others of engaging in conjecture? I think I've said that all anyone is doing is conjecture, because the only way to know who is "right" or "wrong" is based on how the team does. If I accused others of conjecture I bet it was in response to being accused of conjecturing myself. I just suspect it because I don't really use the word "conjecture" as a regular part of my vocab.

 

All we can do is wait to see the results... or just keep saying the same things over and over and over. It's all conjecture at this point. No shame in that.

 

I've stated my reasons for my thought time and time again. Anyone who is using a projection of 2012 performance is basing it on conjecture because the season hasn't started yet. "Bard could be a good SP" is conjecture. So is "Melancon is probably getting better". This team is built on "mights", with the clear theory that the players they have can get the job done.

 

I know you aren't comfortable with that. You want to have the certainty that Roy Oswalt provides. Of course, assuming that Oswalt will produce anything like what he has in the past is conjecture at its best, but I accept conjecture because, again, its all we have now.

 

As I said in a previous post, I think this thread has jumped the shark. The same arguments have been restated literally dozens, maybe hundreds of times. We all know that you don't think that looking at the rosters gives us the assurance the team will be better than it was. When people give you reasons why it might be better (Bard could be a very good starter, Buchholz should be back, they are unlikely to have the worst collapse in sports history again, they have a new manager, they don't have Wakefield and Lackey throwing s*** innings, Crawford is bound to be better, etc.,) you come back with the same alternate arguments (they lost Papelbon, Ellsbury will regress, they don't have a clear #5 starter, etc.,).

 

Now, we could try to figure out exactly how many wins the possible good points and the possible bad points could make, but that is an exercise in futility. Your estimation is that they will be "the same" or "worse". I'm saying that I think they will be roughly "the same" or "better". I fully admit I could be wrong. You fully admit you could be wrong.

 

Attempts to be more specific will be conjecture on conjecture... there's nothing wrong with conjecture when it's all you have, but conjecturing about conjecture just to keep a conversation going--one which is the longest in board history despite a really, really slow offseason--is not worth doing in my mind. Your view may differ.

I swear to god that sometimes we debate and argue about nothing. Check out the what I have bolded in your post above and check out the quote from my post that started this whole discussion:

 

Without another starting pitcher we were pretty much in agreement that the 2012 pitching will most likely be about the same as the 2011 pitching not significantly better or worse.

 

I think we are saying the same thing, unless you think they will be significantly better. I don't think they will be significantly better or worse. I think we need to significantly improve to keep pace with and surpass the competition. I just don't think we have done enough to be significantly better.

[Bellhorn04]

'Intangibles ********', jung? I actually think that's pretty funny, especially after having about a million arguments over the last 5 years with people telling me what a lousy manager Francona was and how he was costing us 10 games a year. Well, I guess you weren't one of those people.

[example1]

I swear to god that sometimes we debate and argue about nothing. Check out the what I have bolded in your post above and check out the quote from my post that started this whole discussion:

 

 

 

I think we are saying the same thing, unless you think they will be significantly better. I don't think they will be significantly better or worse. I think we need to significantly improve to keep pace with and surpass the competition. I just don't think we have done enough to be significantly better.

 

and you wonder why I would say this thread has jumped the shark?

 

The difference in our views is apparently that I think a team about as good as last years is capable of doing quite a bit, especially if they get better performances from a few key guys. The difference between the 2011 team getting hot at the right time and having luck with injuries is a matter of degrees, not highly improbable. That's just my opinion though. We will see.

[Spitball]

Not to change the subject, but did anyone see the latest Traderumors posting about Buchholz missing the entire 2012 season. Relax...it's Taylor Buchholz, but my heart stopped there for a second.

[a700hitter]

and you wonder why I would say this thread has jumped the shark?

 

The difference in our views is apparently that I think a team about as good as last years is capable of doing quite a bit, especially if they get better performances from a few key guys. The difference between the 2011 team getting hot at the right time and having luck with injuries is a matter of degrees, not highly improbable. That's just my opinion though. We will see.

Not highly improbable at all. However, the competition has gotten better, so our guys will have to perform better just to keep pace.

[Bellhorn04]

Not to change the subject' date=' but did anyone see the latest Traderumors posting about Buchholz missing the entire 2012 season. Relax...it's Taylor Buchholz, but my heart stopped there for a second.[/quote']

 

Hey, don't do that, man. My heart almost stopped for a nanosecond when I read your first sentence.

[example1]

Not highly improbable at all. However' date=' the competition has gotten better, so our guys will have to perform better just to keep pace.[/quote']

 

They will obviously need to play better if they want better results.

 

Thanks for being agreeable.

 

For awhile there it felt like people were not only saying it was highly improbable, but that anyone believing it was reasonably possible is insane. That's the stuff that pissed me off and others I assume.

[User Name]

'Intangibles ********'' date=' jung? I actually think that's pretty funny, especially after having about a million arguments over the last 5 years with people telling me what a lousy manager Francona was and how he was costing us 10 games a year. Well, I guess you weren't one of those people.[/quote']

 

This. Some of those same people who viewed Francona as a reason why the Sox lost 10+ games per year are now unwilling to acknowledge Valentine being a positive impact on the W/L column. Makes no sense.

 

They will obviously need to play better if they want better results.

 

Thanks for being agreeable.

 

For awhile there it felt like people were not only saying it was highly improbable, but that anyone believing it was reasonably possible is insane. That's the stuff that pissed me off and others I assume.

 

This. A thousand times this. But don't be so "authoritative" when saying things like this.

[seabeachfred]

Yeah' date=' I wouldn't disagree with that. What I am a little surprised at is how little attention is being paid to our possible upgrades in the intangible areas. New manager, now coaches, new training & medical people. I think it's been widely acknowledged that we were poor in these areas last year. I also realize that it's difficult to assign quantitative values to such an upgrade. But we've certainly heard about Francona costing us games, the medical staff costing us games, the lousy conditioning & clubhouse morale costing us games.[/quote']

 

I mentioned something along this line about a week ago Bob and you are right on point. Francona most certainly cost us games, between 10-12 a year, that's how bad he was as a dugout manager. He did this year after year and what was even worse his stubborness made him repeat his same mistakes over and over. Thank God he is gone. Bobby will not cost us those games and may even steal a few for us as Joe Maddon does yearly for the Rays.

 

A new conditioning staff and new medical people on a staff that no longer has butcher Gill on it should also be a boon to our chances. Still, though, you need chicken to make chicken salad. You can't do it with chicken s***!!!!! Unfortunately most of the pitchers we signed this off season seem synonomous with a certain room in the house.

[Station 13]

@BIG3Sports Mike Gambardella

Roy Oswalt has told the Red Sox that he was not interested in playing in Boston. He's looking for a 1-yr, $10 mil deal.

[jung]

The difference in our views is apparently that I think a team about as good as last years is capable of doing quite a bit, especially if they get better performances from a few key guys. The difference between the 2011 team getting hot at the right time and having luck with injuries is a matter of degrees, not highly improbable. That's just my opinion though. We will see.

 

True enough. The point is there is no immediate solution for the real problem. The real problem is that there is to much payroll tied up in to few guys. As a result when the Sox have an injury we get dog s*** McDonald or his equivalent. The Sox are just as likely to end up where they did in 2012 as they did in 2011 for that specific reason.

 

It will take more than one year to right this ship in my opinion and it will take a recognition on ownership's part that there is a steep price to pay for stocking up on these glamor signings leaving nothing behind them. It is a sucker's bet because the chance that those few guys where you have invested the bulk of your money will all perform to their potential and/or avoid injury is slim to none.

 

In fact you can just about guarantee that some number of them will be injured at some point during the season which makes leaving dog s*** behind them even more ridiculous.

 

If I had to guess I would guess that the Sox started down this road because they thought it was the best way to compete with the Yankees. That is like bringing a knife to a gun fight and if you think about it, it never worked with the possible exception of 2007. It probably does keep the fan base blissfully dreaming that a $270M revenue line is the same think as a $460M revenue line. That is the lesson they need to take from this and in my view if they have not or don't they are doomed to repeat 2011 over and over again.

 

They have just about become the 25 players, 25 limousines Red Sox all over again except now it is the 25 players, 11 limousines and 14 Yugo's Red Sox. They would be much better off with 25 players, maybe 3 limousines, 10 Audis, 8 BMW's and a few VW's. That would likely be a team that was easier to manage, hungrier, that took better care of themselves and had improved chances of being successful in a division where you somehow have to find a way to compete with the Yankees.

[Spitball]

Hey' date=' don't do that, man. My heart almost stopped for a nanosecond when I read your first sentence.[/quote']

 

Sorry, but the same thing happened to me when I saw it on the trade rumor site. Of course, it took a bit to recognize they were talking about Taylor and not Clay.

[Muggah]

It is true that much of what has been posted is based on looking at the team as constructed and trying to make some judgments about that team or looking at it with the addition of one SP of so far unspecified quality and trying to make some judgements about that.

 

I am going to go back to something that I had mentioned early on in this thread but in a different context.

 

The Sox in my view have built a team of very impressive players that occupy most of the starting every day positions and SP roles. Even Drew for all his shortcomings was a pretty decent player. The problem in my view is that they spent all of their money in those top 8 everyday players and the pitchers they thought would end up at the top of rotation offering them long term deals at huge money and then did very little to support them with meaningful backups. Had they not been so focused on these "glamor" signings they might have had more money to balance the payroll between those guys that start on opening day and those top rotation guys and the players that support them. In addition some of those glamor signings not only cost them money in contracts but put a big hole in the farm system where support players better than the McDonalds' of the world might have really helped this team. The falloff has been not just significant but huge as soon as those top 8 every day players or guys intended for the top of the rotation go down. Drew is a good example...Drew goes down and we get who....McDonald!

 

We want to say that the team that gets hot at the end of the year going into the playoffs has the best chance of winning it all. I agree with that. How do you get hot with significant parts of your lineup on the shelf and playing basically with dregs instead of players that can actually have an impact for a short period of time, meaning meaningful backups.

 

Now some of this sunk money is sunk in players that cannot play at all in 2012, they no longer even have an everyday SS of any kind never mind, poor or bad or mediocre or rent-a-wreck....try nobody. They have Youk a year older and in all likelihood more fragile than ever and what is his backup? He is in great shape?....there is is no great shape for his body type. He is aging early. I actually think he might make 120 games this year but I would not count on him for a game more than that and probably less.

 

Those that want to look on the bright side have got to admit that the Red Sox have to many weak spots in the dike and assuming that this particular dike (which is much influenced by chance of injury) will not expose some of those holes is ridiculous. It is professional sports. Some number of guys do not play complete seasons...period! So if I looked at the starting 8, they are a bit weaker right now than when they started 2011 although better than most by a long shot. But they have even fewer support players that can step in. In fact it now looks like they are going to start the season with support players playing at some positions. I do think the OF acquisition will ultimately help them because I think he can play any outfield position to some extent. He might be the best evidence that this organization might have finally learned what it takes to survive and compete in MLB.

 

As for the rotation, that now looks to me like a duplicate of the everyday player situation. They have Buch, the pitching equivalent of Youk in a potential for injury sense in the 3 hole and two guys that you might have wanted as swingmen or in the bullpen actually occupying the 4 and 5 holes, never having started anywhere professionally before. While we have a decent BP, you cannot in a month of Sundays project that BP as better than what we had last year with Aceves, Bard and Pap holding down the fort. It might look better in the sense that there are guys that have no real record of accomplishment that you could project as having good years but the real problem with the pen last year was not the quality of the players. We wore it out. We beat the s*** out of it. Does this year look like it could be more of the same? It sure as s*** does.

 

There are just to many weak spots in this dike and those that want to suggest that we should just wait and see are pissing into the breeze cause we can't do anything about it anyway. We can't change a God Damned thing! But we can look realistically at what this team is and make some judgements about its chances for success and I keep coming back to the same thing. There are simply to many weak spots in this particular dike and the Sox will once again in my view not have enough fingers for those weak spots in the dike once they start turning into holes as there are no adequate substitutes, just like last year.

 

I will be happy to be wrong cause I don't give a rats ass if I am one of the guys that have to eat some forum crow at the end of the year. It is a sports board. In that sense I don't give a crap about having to eat some crow for being wrong and I would prefer to be wrong in this particular case.

 

Now for the intangibles. Here is another popular argument. When those that want to project this team as better are stuck recognizing that when you look at them player by player, at best they are the same as last year, the next argument we have to hear is the intangibles argument.

 

New strength and conditioning guys: This argument is the least substantive of them. I will say it again, strength and conditioning guys in MLB are glorified towel holders. To project on them the kind of impact that their brethren in the NLF have is a mistake. They don't have that kind of control. It is very much up to the player to keep himself conditioned through the season.

 

The medical staff: I had hopes for this one all the way up until a few days ago when somebody posted that this next bunch are from the same association of doctors that Gill was from and as that poster rightfully noted, doctors within the same medical groups adopt the same medical practices. So if this is true prepare for more sparsity with regard to MRI. In addition the medical staff has an impact after injury occurs so their benefit is one that might be relevant after the fact.

 

Taking them from least relevant to most relevant then the management changes are the most relevant intangible in my estimation. However BC is yet another LL lackey. For whatever reason JH likes it this way and that is the way it is. Although I do think that in time what appears to now be a reluctance to expend big dollars in guys that by default, as a group cannot last an entire season leaving nothing for support players will change, not because Theo is gone and BC is here but because I think the whole organization realizes that without spreading the payroll over more players and continuing to feed the major league effort with players in development and under cost control, they are doomed to repeat a succession of 2011's maybe not as dramatically as in 2011 but who gives a s***...losing is losing.

 

As for Valentine, based on his history he is just as likely to blow up like a nuclear bomb as he is to succeed especially with this kind of squad. So it is hard for me to put much value on this intangibles ********. However I do very much think that management and the baseball organization if it has a willingness to spread payroll as I have suggested will build better, more capable teams that are at the same time easier to manage and that take better care of themselves. However that does nothing for our 2012 which unfortunately was tainted by the mind set from the past. That is what in my view produced the Ortiz Arbitration offer.

 

Maybe there was no way out of this one given the 100th year thing. However you cannot convince me that this would not have been a better team with the DH role spread amongst what are still some very big bats for the Sox and with one more real stud of a starting pitcher instead of this thrashing through the trash we appear destined for looking for another starter with no means to rest guys like Youk while keeping their bats in the lineup.

 

For 2012 I see a number of teams that are marginally better than they were in 2011 in the AL and a Sox team that is about the same. Over the 162 games while we will likely focus on what we do against the Yankees and the Rays and Rangers it is that 112th game against Detroit that you lose or that 85th game against the Angels that you lose instead of win that I think will ultimately tell the tail for the 2012 Sox. It will lose more games because it is not better than 2011 while facing many teams that are marginally better than they were in 2011. That is the beauty of the 162. it is a grind. It is a marathon and the pieces that you can insert over that 162 are more important than the Sox have made them in recent history and that is why we have the team we have.

 

On top of everything else no matter how you slice it no matter what you want to argue, the addition of a WC slot is not a benefit to the Sox. It is hard to conceive the Sox as being a true competitor for the division at this point which makes them a competitor for one of those WC spots. That WC spot is not what it used to be when compared to being the division leader. It is better than going home but far worse now than winning the division. A one game play in is truly a crapshoot. Ya' wanna' place a bet on either team winning a one game play in? Literally anything can happen in that case.

 

I do think that it is not a coincidence that MLB is both bringing in the second WC AND making it very painful for teams to exceed the cap in the coming years. If not for that we might be back to a succession of Yankee teams getting to the WS, first winning the division and having that advantage propel them into the WS in more years than anybody wants to see.

 

Now, every God Damned bit of this post is opinion, all of it, based on looking at the players and the organization, just like every other damned post other than those that announce a trade or a signing or something like that. We should dispense entirely with this view that we should not do this and frankly some of you have gotten very close to that line. This is all we can do. If we can't do this, there is no reason for being here at all.

 

 

Quite a bit of this is spot on, IMO. Good job.

[SoxSport]

 

I read yesterday the Red Sox had withdrawn their offer for Oswalt. Today I read Oswalt has told them he doesn't want to play in Boston (actually, in the AL East).

 

Nice to see they are in complete agreement.

 

As a pitcher in decline, he will have a tough time getting what he wants.

[User Name]

I read yesterday the Red Sox had withdrawn their offer for Oswalt. Today I read Oswalt has told them he doesn't want to play in Boston (actually, in the AL East).

 

Nice to see they are in complete agreement.

 

As a pitcher in decline, he will have a tough time getting what he wants.

 

The Tigers already offered him 1/10 and he declined.

[Palodios]

Roy Oswalt has told the Red Sox that he was not interested in playing in Boston. He's looking for a 1-yr, $10 mil deal.

 

Dick move by Oswalt. How much of Ben's time did he waste, when he could have concentrated on other moves?

[seabeachfred]

They will be facing tougher competition this year. Their major opposition has improved significantly while they haven't. No 4 or 5 starter' date=' no ML ready starting SS who can play an entire season. Question marks at third and left. Their catcher is mediocre. But we have said all this before.[/quote']

 

It's getting to be an old sad song Elk and reminds me of that old bag mother-in-law who came for a visit and decided to stay and busted up a good marriage. We're being taken for that proverbial one way ride by Prune Face and Company. They seem to be telling us we either win with what we have or we all go down in flames. When you have as little margin for error as we do, despite what some of our friends around here say, it is a bad scene all around. If our pitching starts to spring a leak from elbow strains, hamstring pulls, or shoulder aches, we can only go to the outhouse to pluck one of those duds Cherington hung on all of us----Germano, Cook, Maine, Silva, Haeger, Miller or Padilla, and can we envision one or two of these bozos actually stepping up front and center and getting a big job done? Well that's what we have to hope for, not to mention with strong praying that our three key starting pitchers can somehow go a full season for a change and ring up solid records apiece. A lot of ask for.

 

Of course, in back of all this we have to worry that Lucchino doesn't live up to his shoddy reputation of sacred cow worshipper and foist Wakefield and Varitek back on us for another miserable season after both of them came up completely empty in getting an offer from any other team. Let's all pray for a near miracle. I'll take the offense and defense next post.

 

:dunno::dunno::dunno::dunno::dunno::dunno::dunno:

[iortiz]

Great post Jung. I agree in almost all the passages of your post.

 

Well, at this point if the name is not Floyd I really have no idea what BC is planning.

[jung]

Geez the way things are going we may be desperately awaiting the return of Wake at some point. I am beginning to suspect that Wake has been hung out there as a possibility for the most obvious of reasons, the one way all wanted to avoid. That he is in fact a possibility.

 

Aceves and Bard were both going to report to camp preparing to start because.....they are both going to start.

 

Now that Oswalt has made his historic announcement (dick-head), I am not sure the Sox will give what it takes for Floyd so that has them looking past Floyd to somebody if that is the case.....or....nobody. At this point like it or not I suspect nobody is a real possibility....except of course the aforementioned Wake. I think they have got to find a way...a deal that gets them something between Oawalt and Wake.

 

I wonder if the Yanks obvious success last year going into the regular season with CC, Gum and Band-aid for a rotation empowered the Sox to try this route.

[example1]

Dick move by Oswalt. How much of Ben's time did he waste' date=' when he could have concentrated on other moves?[/quote']

 

I don't know how dick it was. Weren't most of us predicting like 3 weeks ago that he wasn't that interested in Boston, based on pretty well-publicized reports? I think Ben probably knew Oswalt wasn't that interested when he offered 5m dollars.

[iortiz]

Do not discard that possibility Jung.

 

Tim Wakefield: He told John A. Torres of Florida Today that retirement is possible, though the knuckleballer hopes to return to the Red Sox.

 

By Tim Dierkes [January 30 at 9:20am CST]

[jacksonianmarch]

The Yankees knew three things about their rotation going into 2011. They had an ace and a #2 that ate innings. And they knew they had a lights out pen. They didnt so much as get lucky with Colon as doing their due diligence. Pena had him on his winter league team, and when they saw he could still run it up there in the mid 90s, they took a shot. Fredy was less of an unknown having provided quality innings in Chicago. The biggest surprise was Nova, obviously.

[Elktonnick]

Geez the way things are going we may be desperately awaiting the return of Wake at some point. I am beginning to suspect that Wake has been hung out there as a possibility for the most obvious of reasons, the one way all wanted to avoid. That he is in fact a possibility.

 

Aceves and Bard were both going to report to camp preparing to start because.....they are both going to start.

 

Now that Oswalt has made his historic announcement (dick-head), I am not sure the Sox will give what it takes for Floyd so that has them looking past Floyd to somebody if that is the case.....or....nobody. At this point like it or not I suspect nobody is a real possibility....except of course the aforementioned Wake. I think they have got to find a way...a deal that gets them something between Oawalt and Wake.

 

I wonder if the Yanks obvious success last year going into the regular season with CC, Gum and Band-aid for a rotation empowered the Sox to try this route.

 

This move by Oswalt is not surprising. MLB radio called it over a week ago. Several of us thought that the Wakefield option was always going to be a possibility especially since the club made no real move to obtain a ML ready starter. I wonder how much they are banking on Selig delivering them one played a role.

[jung]

Agreed, I had given up on Oswalt so long ago I no longer have the memory banks to remember how long ago it was. To be honest I wish he had just not announced anything. Let it be. The professional baseball people likely had this figured out. Hell if we had it figured out what do you think the chances are that they had it figured out?

 

The announcement to me was just salt in the wounds and that is what I did not like about it. I would have preferred Oswalt just shut the hell up about it. You announce publicly that you are going somewhere, not that you are not going somewhere!

[iortiz]

If this 5 M + thing was true I really wouldn't have clue what Ben was expecting from this offer regardless STL had already offered 5 M by the time.

[redsoxrules]

Dick move by Oswalt. How much of Ben's time did he waste' date=' when he could have concentrated on other moves?[/quote']

 

Dick move by Ben .

If I was Oswalt , I wouldn't be interested either for a 5 MIL offer.