Official 2009-2010 Hot Stove season thread

[yeszir]

http://www.talksox.com/forum/talk-sox-forum/13551-hoyer-comfort-dealing-sox.html

 

Owned. I admit, I tend to gloss over threads that I know consist entirely of centered text.

[example1]

I am not a Shaughnessy fan but I agree that Theo and the FO are selling us a bill of goods. Many of the FO toadies and lackeys (not John) who apologize for the FO don't put their money where their mouths are. I spend thousands every year going to Sox games in Boston and Ft. Myers. The ticket prices have gone up. Money has come off their payroll, and we are being told to sit tight until 2012. Will we have enough kids who will become stars in 2012 to fill the SS position, take Drew's place (his contract will be finished and he'll be in his late 30's), and Ortiz who will be gone. Will the farm also yield a catcher, a LFer, and a couple of starters? I don't think so.

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2009/12/10/fans_shouldnt_buy_red_sox_bridge/

 

I'm so shocked to read Shaughnessy is playing the "smarter than the FO" game, and that a700 is jumping on his bandwagon. Shaughnessy's crap had a lot more credibility before the Sox won 2 World Series and made the playoffs every year.

 

I wonder what time last night Shaughnessy finished that article and hit "send". While everyone else is talking about the Lowell deal he's still complaining that Theo didn't declare the Sox to be 2010 World Series champions.

 

I would say that eating Lowell's contract for a better trade piece or for someone who might rightly vault to the top of the Sox prospect list is pretty aggressive and a good use of their money.

 

Leaping to conclusions before the offseason is over; demanding that the Sox beat the Yankees on paper when we're months from the season starting; overvaluing Curtis Granderson because he's a famous name...

 

He will look foolish if it turns out the Sox were waiting so they could offer Mauer a 10-year deal, or to snag Pujols at $30m/yr and they weren't satisfied with giving up their farm for Adrian Gonzalez so they could have a chance to win in 2010 (when they already have one).

[RedSoxRooter]

I think Shaughnessy represents a large portion of Red Sox fans - and sports fans in general. All the blowhards who like to assign blame for something (another team's transaction, a loss, free agency) probably follow his every word. My folks are like this. There is no "Well it was a good game and they lost", it's more like "they lost. Who can I blame it on?". You're seeing it with the Sox and Patriots right now.

 

I just don't understand the need to assign blame for everything - which is all that Shank does. Enjoy and watch the games because they are entertainment and nothing more. If sports/entertainment/politics gets you so pissed off when things don't go the exact way you want them to go, stop watching.

 

And to those who bitch about the price of tickets, here's something you could do that could possibly catch the front office's eyes: Stop buying tickets.

[BSN07]

I'm so shocked to read Shaughnessy is playing the "smarter than the FO" game, and that a700 is jumping on his bandwagon. Shaughnessy's crap had a lot more credibility before the Sox won 2 World Series and made the playoffs every year.

 

I wonder what time last night Shaughnessy finished that article and hit "send". While everyone else is talking about the Lowell deal he's still complaining that Theo didn't declare the Sox to be 2010 World Series champions.

 

I would say that eating Lowell's contract for a better trade piece or for someone who might rightly vault to the top of the Sox prospect list is pretty aggressive and a good use of their money.

 

Leaping to conclusions before the offseason is over; demanding that the Sox beat the Yankees on paper when we're months from the season starting; overvaluing Curtis Granderson because he's a famous name...

 

He will look foolish if it turns out the Sox were waiting so they could offer Mauer a 10-year deal, or to snag Pujols at $30m/yr and they weren't satisfied with giving up their farm for Adrian Gonzalez so they could have a chance to win in 2010 (when they already have one).

 

Shaugnassey's an Fing tool. He's writing articles to drag in the meat-headed mouth breathers to boost his numbers @ ESPNBoston. They run rampant this time of year. Especially when the Yankees make "flashy" moves. His article probably got decent numbers. Which in the end, is his job.

[Cocos Disciples]

Many of the FO toadies and lackeys (not John)

 

So corny.

 

a700, are you going to Ft. Myers this year?

[yeszir]

Wait, the Sox signed ANOTHER Ramon Ramirez?

[BSN07]

Wait' date=' the Sox signed ANOTHER Ramon Ramirez?[/quote']

 

Your going to give a700 just a stroke

[a700hitter]

So corny.

 

a700, are you going to Ft. Myers this year?

Yep, for the 7th year in a row. It's a lot of fun.

[BSN07]

I think Shaughnessy represents a large portion of Red Sox fans - and sports fans in general. All the blowhards who like to assign blame for something (another team's transaction' date=' a loss, free agency) probably follow his every word. My folks are like this. There is no "Well it was a good game and they lost", it's more like "they lost. Who can I blame it on?". You're seeing it with the Sox and[b'] Patriots[/b] right now.

 

I just don't understand the need to assign blame for everything - which is all that Shank does. Enjoy and watch the games because they are entertainment and nothing more. If sports/entertainment/politics gets you so pissed off when things don't go the exact way you want them to go, stop watching.

 

And to those who bitch about the price of tickets, here's something you could do that could possibly catch the front office's eyes: Stop buying tickets.

 

I know, God forbid the Patriots have an "off" year. Que the idiots who will say " but they didn't make the playoffs last year either".

[BSN07]

Yep' date=' for the 7th year in a row. It's a lot of fun.[/quote']

 

We will be getting updates per the usual right?

[a700hitter]

I'm so shocked to read Shaughnessy is playing the "smarter than the FO" game' date=' and that a700 is jumping on his bandwagon. Shaughnessy's crap had a lot more credibility before the Sox won 2 World Series and made the playoffs every year. [/quote']You have completely missed the point of the article. It's not about Shaughnessy "playing the smarter than the FO game." He's calling them on their disingenuous cries of poverty. I have been sick of this BS for decades, well before this ownership group was here. They are trying to float the "we can't compete financially with the Yankees" crap. They exposed their own lies in 2006 when they spent like drunken sailors.

 

He will look foolish if it turns out the Sox were waiting so they could offer Mauer a 10-year deal' date=' or to snag Pujols at $30m/yr and they weren't satisfied with giving up their farm for Adrian Gonzalez so they could have a chance to win in 2010 (when they already have one).[/quote']I wouldn't count on either of these things happening.

[BSN07]

You have completely missed the point of the article. It's not about Shaughnessy "playing the smarter than the FO game." He's calling them on their disingenuous cries of poverty. I have been sick of this BS for decades' date=' well before this ownership group was here. They are trying to float the "[b']we can't compete financially with the Yankees" crap[/b]. They exposed their own lies in 2006 when they spent like drunken sailors.

 

I wouldn't count on either of these things happening.

 

They Yankees are one of the least profitable teams(although now with the new stadium it will change obviously). The red sox are run by business men who want to make a profit. And until people stop showing up or tuning in they will continue to operate this way. So you really have 2 choices to choose from,

 

A) Tune out and save your $

 

B ) Go cheer for the drunken sailors

[Gom]

They Yankees are one of the least profitable teams(although now with the new stadium it will change obviously). The red sox are run by business men who want to make a profit. And until people stop showing up or tuning in they will continue to operate this way. So you really have 2 choices to choose from,

 

A) Tune out and save your $

 

B ) Go cheer for the drunken sailors

 

Are you insane? Holy s***...you really think the Yankees are not PROFITABLE?

 

Mods, ban this fool.

[Keeper]

I think Keeper's comment was misplaced and ill advised. If he had a problem with another member' date=' or as in this case two members, he could have Pmed them to discuss it. In stead he took the 7th grade route and made a personal attack in front of the whole class. Nice.[/quote']

 

It wasn't a personal attack. It was constructive criticism. PMing them wouldn't have changed anything. By posting it on here, it had to be addressed. I didn't make either one of them leave. They got "butthurt" and left of their own accord.

 

I actually wouldn't mind getting LaRoche. I know that some believe a LHH who pulls the ball wouldn't play at Fenway, but I think LaRoche would have success here.

 

There are pros and cons to LaRoche and Beltre. With Beltre at 3B and Youk at 1B, the defense improves in the infield at the corners.

 

With Youk at 3B and LaRoche at 1B, the defense isn't as good, but the offensive production is probably a little better.

 

Still, there is no substitute for Adrian Gonzalez. A lot depends on the LF situation. If the Sox don't re-sign Bay and can't corral Holliday, I would say it is imperative the Sox get Gonzalez.

[ORS]

You have completely missed the point of the article. It's not about Shaughnessy "playing the smarter than the FO game." He's calling them on their disingenuous cries of poverty. I have been sick of this BS for decades' date=' well before this ownership group was here. They are trying to float the "we can't compete financially with the Yankees" crap. They exposed their own lies in 2006 when they spent like drunken sailors.[/quote']

Where did they do this? This is a stawman CHB set up, and then you licked it up faster than a kitten on spilled milk.

 

Furthermore, why is the spending in the '06 offseason a lie? One, they didn't spend like the Yankees (refer to the '09 offseason for spending like the Yankees). Two, shouldn't that be considered proof that they are willing to spend? It should, and this should bring the focus to "willing", as in, how do they arrive at the willingness to spend money on certain players. Clearly, they are willing to spend on the players they value. They just don't value players the same way you do, but that doesn't make them cheap.

 

And, they can't compete financially with the Yankees, not dollar for dollar. Only a great fool would suggest otherwise, and I don't think you are a great fool, so you know it's not crap.

[Gom]

Where did they do this? This is a stawman CHB set up, and then you licked it up faster than a kitten on spilled milk.

 

Furthermore, why is the spending in the '06 offseason a lie? One, they didn't spend like the Yankees (refer to the '09 offseason for spending like the Yankees). Two, shouldn't that be considered proof that they are willing to spend? It should, and this should bring the focus to "willing", as in, how do they arrive at the willingness to spend money on certain players. Clearly, they are willing to spend on the players they value. They just don't value players the same way you do, but that doesn't make them cheap.

 

And, they can't compete financially with the Yankees, not dollar for dollar. Only a great fool would suggest otherwise, and I don't think you are a great fool, so you know it's not crap.

 

No other big market team cries like the Red Sox. You don't see the Braves complaining about the Phillies or the Mets. You don't see the Padres or Giants complaining about the Dodgers. You don't see the Brewers complaining about the Cubs.

 

One thing is a guarantee. The Yankees make a move, any move, that's a splash, and the Red Sox cry...all the while collecting the highest or second highest ticket total as well as having their own defacto network.

 

I'm not saying the Red Sox can compete with the Yankees financially. It's also true that no one can compete with the Red Sox's bitching, either.

[BSN07]

Are you insane? Holy s***...you really think the Yankees are not PROFITABLE?

 

Mods, ban this fool.

 

http://www.askmen.com/sports/business_200/225_sports_business.html

In 2006, the Yanks had revenues of about $302 million; however, the club lost more than $25 million according to Forbes. Fans paid an average of $28 to go through the turnstiles at historic Yankee Stadium and contributed to the overall gate receipt total of $155 million. Because the Yanks are basically a rotisserie-type collection of high-priced free agents, player expenses cost the club $219 million. If you think these financial results are hideous, consider that the Yankees lost $50 million in 2005

 

I believe this was around the pinnacle of their spending. I did say with the new stadium this is likely to change.

 

So yea...

[Tyler Durden]

Mets made their first offer to Jason Bay.

 

4 years/$65 million.

 

Do the Red Sox match it?

[BSN07]

No other big market team cries like the Red Sox. You don't see the Braves complaining about the Phillies or the Mets. You don't see the Padres or Giants complaining about the Dodgers. You don't see the Brewers complaining about the Cubs.

 

One thing is a guarantee. The Yankees make a move, any move, that's a splash, and the Red Sox cry...all the while collecting the highest or second highest ticket total as well as having their own defacto network.

 

I'm not saying the Red Sox can compete with the Yankees financially. It's also true that no one can compete with the Red Sox's bitching, either.

 

When did being fiscally responsible become "crying poverty"?

[BSN07]

Mets made their first offer to Jason Bay.

 

4 years/$65 million.

 

Do the Red Sox match it?

 

I believe they go 4/70 max.

[Tyler Durden]

I believe they go 4/70 max.

 

That's $17.5 million per season. I don't think Jason Bay is worth that type of money. He's more $15 million per max. IMO. Anything above $15 million per season should be a player who's the full package.

[BSN07]

That's $17.5 million per season. I don't think Jason Bay is worth that type of money. He's more $15 million per max. IMO. Anything above $15 million per season should be a player who's the full package.

 

I don't think he is worth it either, but if they get desperate they might offer it.

 

They might. But I doubt it. Even if they did I think the Mets will go 5/75 to get him.

[Cocos Disciples]

That's $17.5 million per season. I don't think Jason Bay is worth that type of money. He's more $15 million per max. IMO. Anything above $15 million per season should be a player who's the full package.

 

I agree that he's not worth 17.5, but at this point it's either pony up for Bay or go into 2010 with Hermida. I'm not thrilled with either scenario, but I'd take Bay.

[BSN07]

I agree that he's not worth 17.5' date=' but at this point it's either pony up for Bay or go into 2010 with Hermida. I'm not thrilled with either scenario, but I'd take Bay.[/quote']

 

I'd take Hermida and go spend like a drunken sailor next off season

 

I still hope they offer Holliday something like 5yrs/15-20M AAV

[SoxSport]

The Red Sox knew it would turn out to be a bidding war with NY or LA if they didn't extend Bay at the proper time. Maybe Bay just wanted to test free agency. You don't know. But the result is a lot of nickle and diming, pushing the price up a little at a time. If that's what Bay wants, he doesn't value his Boston experience very much. So be it.

 

Fact is either NY team can outbid the Red Sox on most any player if they want to--and in the process push the price up for every other available player. That has been going on with Steinbrenner since the advent of free agency in the late 70s. And that's why the Players Union and agents love the Yankees.

 

The Red Sox deal from a weak position, since everybody knows they put a value on every player and won't pay beyond that. If you want a player, you just go above that value. We'll see if this happens with Bay. Boras is just patiently holding his Holliday card, waiting to see how high Bay will push Holliday's price up.

[a700hitter]

I'd take Hermida and go spend like a drunken sailor next off season

... and we just spend this summer at the beach, because they'll have no shot at beating the Yankees.

[ORS]

No other big market team cries like the Red Sox. You don't see the Braves complaining about the Phillies or the Mets. You don't see the Padres or Giants complaining about the Dodgers. You don't see the Brewers complaining about the Cubs.

 

One thing is a guarantee. The Yankees make a move, any move, that's a splash, and the Red Sox cry...all the while collecting the highest or second highest ticket total as well as having their own defacto network.

 

I'm not saying the Red Sox can compete with the Yankees financially. It's also true that no one can compete with the Red Sox's bitching, either.

I wasn't aware that stating the factual reality, that Boston can't spend money dollar for dollar with the Yankees, constituted crying. Furthermore, I wasn't aware any of those other teams are asked for their reaction to what the other teams in their division did. If they were, I suspect you'd hear the same statement of the financial realities of the game, and it wouldn't be crying.

 

If you want to continue to classify their responses incorrectly to satisfy your petty desire to feel superior, so be it, but don't expect me think anything you say on the subject is of any value.

[italstallianion]

Does anyone know who drugged the Braves front office to get them to agree to the Soriano/Chavez swap? Am I the only one confused about how the hell this trade went through? Where's the SEC when you need them?

[Gom]

I wasn't aware that stating the factual reality' date=' that Boston can't spend money dollar for dollar with the Yankees, constituted crying. [/quote']

Who coined the term "Evil Empire" when describing the Yankees?

 

Enough said.

 

Does anyone know who drugged the Braves front office to get them to agree to the Soriano/Chavez swap? Am I the only one confused about how the hell this trade went through? Where's the SEC when you need them?

What's wrong with the deal? They simply didn't want Soriano at that price whatsoever. They would have traded him for a bar of soap. $7 million for a setup man on the Braves? Get real.

[BSN07]

... and we just spend this summer at the beach' date=' because they'll have no shot at beating the Yankees.[/quote']

 

So the desired end result is "beat the Yankees"? How a700ish