Official 2009-2010 Hot Stove season thread

[Dojji]

As usual' date=' you're overlooking AND selling short the park factor. Beltre and your beloved lover have a similar OPS+ since Lowell came here and Beltre landed in Seattle. You can look for more tangents, but they really don't make for a strong case.[/quote']

 

You hammer a somewhat above average 3B like he's the freaking second coming and have the unmitigated GALL to insinuate I'm the one with the fan addiction? that's rich, Dipre. Real rich.

 

 

Hmmm.....30-year-old healthy Beltre vs. 35-year-old hip surgery Lowell, i think Lowell's the biggest risk.

 

Maybe in a vacuum.

 

-- Beltre was much less effective than Lowell last year, and Lowell had much more reason to be ineffective.

 

-- Beltre is going to require a multi year commitment in order to keep him.

 

-- Safeco or no Safeco, Beltre just isn't that good. You're not going to convince anyone who takes a second to really think about it that Fenway is going to add 30-40 points to Beltre's OBP. It's a decent hitters' park, especially for RHH, but it's not Coors or NYS. You're leaning too hard on park factors on this one.

 

He's not a bad option, but don't mistake him for the second coming of Mike Schmidt. He's a streaky, fundamentally unsound hitter who makes a lot of outs but shows flashes of excellence and boasts good D. A rich man's Pedro Feliz. That's just about it.

 

And with his own recent injury problems, and frankly the heavy big league workload he's already taken on (this will be his 12th big league season, even if he is only 30 that's still a lot of miles), I'm just not sold on why we need to take a risk on the guy. Not at all.

 

This is another instance of you hyping against an important upgrade, specially on defense.

 

Are you a Yankee fan?

 

Typical Dipre. Your argument is weak? Resort to ad homenim and hope no one notices.

 

You know as well as I do that Mike Lowell only represents one more year of commitment. You know that Youkilis' ability to play well at 3B combined with his vastly superior offensive chops to BOTh Lowell AND Beltre limits the downside of waiting to make a move. You also know, just as well as I do, that the low-risk move is to wait for the 2010 offseason to tweak our situation at corner infield, both in terms of our own farm and in terms of which FA's and veteran trade targets are likely to be available. You also know that it's important to save our bullets for the areas where we really need to upgrade, particularly LF and bullpen.

 

But you're hot for Beltre, so you want to ignore all that and go on a FA fling and God help anyone who actually expresses a reasonable contrary opinion, right?

 

 

Yeah, age and the seriousness of the procedure certainly are of no importance in the matter, he'll recuperate his prime years range in no time. Beltre's "Major injury problem" was literally busting a nut. Jesus Christ.

 

Missed those bone chips in his elbow did you? Or the ELBOW SURGERY HE HAD THIS SEASON???

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090627&content_id=5570628&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

 

Low risk my big fat white butt.

 

Please use logic.

 

Under the circumstances, I'll take that one for its humor value.

[GWSoxFan]

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/12/rangers-red-sox-talking-lowell-deal.html

 

I figured for a deal to go down Boston would have to absorb just about all of Lowell's salary.

 

If I'm John Henry, I'm not really all that pleased with Theo's pension for paying players to play for other teams, but its only for one year, and I like what we get back in Max Ramirez, so overall, I'd be pleased with this deal (as long as he pretty much has an agreement with Beltre. If they make the trade, can't lock up Beltre and we end up with Youk at 3rd, Kotchman at 1st, and Martinez/Tek/Ramirez behind the plate, he just made the team worse and paid to do it).

[yeszir]

The second something actually interesting happens everyone funnels off into that thread. We were all just dying for some action.

[Dojji]

If I'm John Henry' date=' I'm not really all that pleased with Theo's pension for paying players to play for other teams, but its only for one year, and I like what we get back in Max Ramirez, so overall, I'd be pleased with this deal (as long as he pretty much has an agreement with Beltre. If they make the trade, can't lock up Beltre and we end up with Youk at 3rd, Kotchman at 1st, and Martinez/Tek/Ramirez behind the plate, he just made the team worse and paid to do it).[/quote']

 

What the heck is this fascination with Beltre? He's not the only answer out there you know. I'd like to hope that maybe Theo's a bit more ambitious than that.

 

You'd get get a bit more offense out of someone like Adam LaRoche at first than you would out of an average Beltre year at third. Not to mention that the plan at 1B might be one of VMart or Ramirez themselves.

[a700hitter]

If I'm John Henry' date=' I'm not really all that pleased with Theo's pension for paying players to play for other teams, but its only for one year, and I like what we get back in Max Ramirez, so overall, I'd be pleased with this deal (as long as he pretty much has an agreement with Beltre. If they make the trade, can't lock up Beltre and we end up with Youk at 3rd, Kotchman at 1st, and Martinez/Tek/Ramirez behind the plate, he just made the team worse and paid to do it).[/quote']If this results in Kotchman becoming a starter, the team just got worse. Kotchman sucks.

[Keeper]

No way that's happening. No way, no how.

[riverside sluggers]

Regardless of the salary, this is a steal for Tampa Bay

 

Jesse Chavez for Rafael Soriano

 

[Keeper]

Regardless of the salary, this is a steal for Tampa Bay

 

Jesse Chavez for Rafael Soriano

 

 

HUGE steal. What were the Braves thinking?

[GWSoxFan]

What the heck is this fascination with Beltre? He's not the only answer out there you know. I'd like to hope that maybe Theo's a bit more ambitious than that.

 

You'd get get a bit more offense out of someone like Adam LaRoche at first than you would out of an average Beltre year at third. Not to mention that the plan at 1B might be one of VMart or Ramirez themselves.

 

I actually agree with you about the offensive production from Adam LaRoche, and I liked him for the short period of time that he was here, plus he is solid defensively at first. However, he poses two problems:

 

1. He's a left handed hitter. If you sign him, you now have 5 lefties in your lineup, and Tito is forced to hit two lefties back-to-back.

 

2. You are weaker defensively at first and third than you would be if you signed Beltre.

[riverside sluggers]

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/baseball/red_sox/view/20091210mets_may_join_jason_bay_fray/

 

Sox are flirting idea with moving Ellsbury to left. The article suggests that the Sox could then sign Mike Cameron or (Gulp!) Coco Crisp to man center field

[Dojji]

I actually agree with you about the offensive production from Adam LaRoche, and I liked him for the short period of time that he was here, plus he is solid defensively at first. However, he poses two problems:

 

1. He's a left handed hitter. If you sign him, you now have 5 lefties in your lineup, and Tito is forced to hit two lefties back-to-back.

 

That's only because you're assuming Hermida is the starting LF. I'm convinced one of Bay and Holliday is coming to Boston, leaving our lefty count at 3 -- Drew, LaRoche, and Ellsbury. Even if Hermida is our LF, that's only 4, as I'm not counting switch-hitters like VMart in among the lefties, for the simple reason that the only time having lefties out there is likely to be a platoon problem, is when facing a LHP, and in those situations VMart's batting right.

 

Besides, if you got Adrian Gonzalez, you'd be in the same pickle -- although perhaps for a better cause.

 

2. You are weaker defensively at first and third than you would be if you signed Beltre.

 

Sure, that's the big hole in my argument, but frankly we'd still be stronger than we were last year, especially if Youks puts up a league average season defensively. Since Beltre's not the kind who tends to age well though, I'd still stay away from him.

[Dojji]

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/baseball/red_sox/view/20091210mets_may_join_jason_bay_fray/

 

Sox are flirting idea with moving Ellsbury to left. The article suggests that the Sox could then sign Mike Cameron or (Gulp!) Coco Crisp to man center field

 

Call me nuts but I think I'd rather play Hermida in left. Crisp has really gone downhill in the last couple seasons. He has more hardware in his shoulders than he used to wear around his neck too.

[CoachC.]

A track record?

 

Hilarity.

 

Please show it to us.

 

You're talking like the series was lost because of Wagner, iirc, it was because the offense disappeared. Please keep things into the proper context, your hindsight opinions hold little to no value.

 

Wow really you dont know Wagners track record, watch baseball much?

 

Go to any Mets or Phillies boards and they will give you a s*** ton of important regular season games he blew for both those teams. Specifically ask the Mets fans about the 4 game series in late Aug in 2007

 

Then I mean you would really have to not know s*** about this game to defend his 10.32 playoff ERA. Sorry but you dont get that bloated ERA by being a guy who comes up in big spots

 

 

 

Here's the problem, champ. Theo tried that, but guess what? It takes two teams to make a trade, i've been the biggest proponent of A-Gon to the Sox since July, so don't come talking about like it's "Obviously your idea", but the fact is that Theo needs to keep his options open, and if he can't reel in A-Gon (and it looks like he can't), he'd be better off upgrading defensively. Or would you rather he got caught with his pants down like last year?

 

Heres the deal Ace, the deal is there to be made but Theo is to in love with the farm system and is afraid to make a big deal. So he would rather play it safe and sign at player like Beltre

 

I love how you say "Theo has to pick up the phone" like he can go to SD and tell Hoyer "I want A-Gon and that's that. Logic please.

 

By the way, you were talking about Beltre's "lack of power", now you just changed your tune to "i never said Lowell was superior" but you sure implied it. Pick an argument and stick to it.

 

 

I didnt imply s***, you would like to think I did to help your argument but at no point did I ever say Lowell was superior, I'm being dead serious check out this web site http://www.hookedonphonics.com/

 

I told you exactly what I said and exactly what I meant and at no point did I say anything about Lowell as a whole player being superior than Beltre. I'm sorry your having problems following this argument but try reading slower or have someone read it to you and then maybe explain it

[msubulldogs21]

Just so everyone knows, if you're quoting Dipre about something, he's not going to respond back. He stated he's done posting here last night.

[Dojji]

That was a bit of an overreaction.

 

Which in its own way, was Dipre all over. He was passionate when he was right, and he was passionate when he was wrong, but he was always passionate.

[BSN07]

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/baseball/red_sox/view/20091210mets_may_join_jason_bay_fray/

 

Sox are flirting idea with moving Ellsbury to left. The article suggests that the Sox could then sign Mike Cameron or (Gulp!) Coco Crisp to man center field

 

That is the dumbest scenario I have heard all season. I'd rather they give Hermida a go and if it doesn't work out, there should be some OF available at the TDL.

[BSN07]

Just so everyone knows' date=' if you're quoting Dipre about something, he's not going to respond back. He stated he's done posting here last night.[/quote']

 

What did I miss?

[Spudboy]

I think Keeper's comment was misplaced and ill advised. If he had a problem with another member, or as in this case two members, he could have Pmed them to discuss it. In stead he took the 7th grade route and made a personal attack in front of the whole class. Nice.

[yeszir]

Sorry guys, this isn't the Dipre thread. This is the Hot Stove thread.

[a700hitter]

I think Keeper's comment was misplaced and ill advised. If he had a problem with another member' date=' or as in this case two members, he could have Pmed them to discuss it. In stead he took the 7th grade route and made a personal attack in front of the whole class. Nice.[/quote']Agreed. It's bizarre that agreeing with each other is more offensive to some posters than profanity, name-calling etc.

[a700hitter]

I am not a Shaughnessy fan but I agree that Theo and the FO are selling us a bill of goods. Many of the FO toadies and lackeys (not John) who apologize for the FO don't put their money where their mouths are. I spend thousands every year going to Sox games in Boston and Ft. Myers. The ticket prices have gone up. Money has come off their payroll, and we are being told to sit tight until 2012. Will we have enough kids who will become stars in 2012 to fill the SS position, take Drew's place (his contract will be finished and he'll be in his late 30's), and Ortiz who will be gone. Will the farm also yield a catcher, a LFer, and a couple of starters? I don't think so.

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2009/12/10/fans_shouldnt_buy_red_sox_bridge/

[jacksonianmarch]

Typically, Shaug is a douche, but he is 100% spot on for this one

[ORS]

No offense, but I'd love to have thousands of dollars I could throw away on entertainment. Perhaps some perspective is in order.

[jacksonianmarch]

a700s point is valid though. If the sox are cutting payroll, why dont they drop the price of a ticket so that more true diehard fans can go. Lets be honest, the crowd at a sox game is nowhere near equivalent to a 36,000 person sample of New England fandom. Most of those bastards are on the phone or having a conversation and not watching the game. When I am watching a yankee game, I hardly talk to anyone until the commercials are on, and if I am talking, it is about the events of the game itself.

[BSN07]

Umm they didn't raise ticket prices last off season. This is the 1st time in 2 years. I would wager there aren't many clubs who did this.

 

http://www.titletowntix.com/red-sox-will-not-raise-ticket-prices-in-2009

 

And if people want to keep Fenway around, they are going to have to pay for it. Hence not backing prices down.

 

And in what other business would the supplier back off on his prices when he's selling out all the time? That view is just absurd and a good way to run your business in the ground. The only way the will drop prices is if no one shows up. And guess what, it's not happening.

[msubulldogs21]

a700s point is valid though. If the sox are cutting payroll' date=' why dont they drop the price of a ticket so that more true diehard fans can go. Lets be honest, the crowd at a sox game is nowhere near equivalent to a 36,000 person sample of New England fandom. Most of those bastards are on the phone or having a conversation and not watching the game. When I am watching a yankee game, I hardly talk to anyone until the commercials are on, and if I am talking, it is about the events of the game itself.[/quote']

 

Wouldn't you say the same thing about a Yankee game though? Talking about some of the rich people there.

 

Not everyone at the game is like that though.

[Rdsxmbnt]

a700s point is valid though. If the sox are cutting payroll' date=' why dont they drop the price of a ticket so that more true diehard fans can go. Lets be honest, the crowd at a sox game is nowhere near equivalent to a 36,000 person sample of New England fandom. Most of those bastards are on the phone or having a conversation and not watching the game. When I am watching a yankee game, I hardly talk to anyone until the commercials are on, and if I am talking, it is about the events of the game itself.[/quote']

 

This is absolutely ridiculous and completely untrue. The crowds EVERY night are fantastic and by all means there to watch the game.

[yeszir]

Was this mentioned yet:

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/304925-jed-hoyer-comfortable-making-a-deal-with-red-sox-for-adrian-gonzalez?utm_campaign=marketing&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=br_mlb

 

?

 

Hoyer would be "comfortable" dealing Gonzalez to Boston.

[BSN07]

Was this mentioned yet:

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/304925-jed-hoyer-comfortable-making-a-deal-with-red-sox-for-adrian-gonzalez?utm_campaign=marketing&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=br_mlb

 

?

 

Hoyer would be "comfortable" dealing Gonzalez to Boston.

 

Maybe not the exact article, but I believe quotes from that interview have been discussed. It may be new and he is just reiterating what he said previously.

[ORS]

http://www.talksox.com/forum/talk-sox-forum/13551-hoyer-comfort-dealing-sox.html