Official 2009-2010 Hot Stove season thread

[a700hitter]

You don't see how having an .860 OPS at catcher for the whole season is better than having an .860 OPS for two months and a .700 OPS for four? Not competing with the Yankees was not Martinez or Bay's fault in the last two months.

It obviously not VMart's or Bay's fault, but they had both of them over the last 2 months of the season and the Yankees still outplayed them in those months.

[ORS]

700, CVS sells Midol. Just sayin'. Seems like a heavy flow day for you.

[BSN07]

You are right' date=' and if I don't like the direction the 2010 team is going, I will not spend as much. If fans like me don't like being out of first by 10 games in August, they will stop going. First the seats will be sold but empty, but if they continue to wait for the farm as the Yankees collect Championships, soon seats will go unsold and NESN's ratings will go down. You guysare talking big right now about being financially responsible and blah blah blah. [b']In the end, when we watch our team lose, it makes all of us miserable.[/b] If the Yankees are cleaning our clocks and the Sox have no hope by August, the financial responsibility of the FO will give you no comfort, because as you said you are a fan rooting for a team. You are not Red Sox management making money by holding the line on salaries.

 

If they start to stink and fans like me stop going to the games they will notice. You they don't care about, because you are not a customer.

 

Speak for yourself. My happiness in life is not based on whether or not the Sox win or lose.

[a700hitter]

700' date=' CVS sells Midol. Just sayin'. Seems like a heavy flow day for you.[/quote']Always the one-line prick comments. Just sayin.

[a700hitter]

Speak for yourself. My happiness in life is not based on whether or not the Sox win or lose.

You are a sicko. May I suggest that you root for the Royals if losing doesn't make you unhappy and winning doesn't matter.

[SoxSport]

The Red Sox did pretty well last year considering their #3 starter was sacrificed in Japan for that World tournament. They should be better this year, provided they get Bay or Holliday and Ortiz doesn't slip further.

[example1]

Where did they do this? This is a stawman CHB set up, and then you licked it up faster than a kitten on spilled milk.

 

Furthermore, why is the spending in the '06 offseason a lie? One, they didn't spend like the Yankees (refer to the '09 offseason for spending like the Yankees). Two, shouldn't that be considered proof that they are willing to spend? It should, and this should bring the focus to "willing", as in, how do they arrive at the willingness to spend money on certain players. Clearly, they are willing to spend on the players they value. They just don't value players the same way you do, but that doesn't make them cheap.

 

And, they can't compete financially with the Yankees, not dollar for dollar. Only a great fool would suggest otherwise, and I don't think you are a great fool, so you know it's not crap.

 

Thanks for this. I couldn't have summarized it better myself.

[ORS]

Always the one-line prick comments. Just sayin.

No, I reserve the one-liners for responses to posts that need no further comment. I expand my responses depending on the merits of the offending post.

[Dojji]

It's true, when I make a post he considers insane, but backed by some kind of logic, he will go to great lengths to tear that logic down. Always kind of uncomfortable from my end, but that's what you come to a forum like this for -- to refine your ideas.

[BSN07]

You are a sicko. May I suggest that you root for the Royals if losing doesn't make you unhappy and winning doesn't matter.

 

I'm a sicko? Why because I don't fall into deep depressions when the Sox don't win? Or take it as a personal slight when they don't make moves?

 

Love your family, like your teams. Gain some perspective. If a sports franchise losing a game has such an effect on you emotionally, that's a "you" problem.

 

Of course I like to see the Sox win, but when they do, I have moved on from it about an hour after the game ends. Same as when they lose. Maybe a little longer for when the season ends(good or bad). But after a couple days I'm looking towards next season. It's just the way I am. I enjoyed the WS titles immensely. But by about January I'm ready for a new season, and the previous season doesn't really matter to me a whole lot.

 

 

No' date=' I reserve the one-liners for responses to posts that need no further comment. I expand my responses depending on the merits of the offending post.[/quote']

 

Yup I can vouch for that one also like Dojji. Although I haven't gotten many "smackdowns" from ORS lately

[Gom]

You know what's funny? Ignorant Red Sox fans who talk about one off-season spending spree...and not realizing that until last year, the Red Sox had made the biggest free agent one-year splash with Drew, Dice, and Lugo. We only topped it last year.

 

I did quote the wrong post, I meant to quote a700, who is about the only non-brain-dead Red Sox fan here. He's about the only one who realizes that the Red Sox make a f***ing killing, and they make money hand over foot, and cry poverty more than any other team, all the while, laughing while depositing your hard-earned money in their pockets.

 

ORS...I guess when one organization calls the other the "Evil Empire", that's not bitching and complaining, but a legitimate term to describe fiscal irresponsibility, as defined by the team that got slighted?

 

Go back to sleep.

[Cocos Disciples]

It obviously not VMart's or Bay's fault' date=' but they had both of them over the last 2 months of the season and the Yankees still outplayed them in those months.[/quote']

 

Which was more due to the Yankees playing .695 ball after the TDL.

[BSN07]

 

I did quote the wrong post, I meant to quote a700, who is about the only non-brain-dead Red Sox fan here. He's about the only one who realizes that the Red Sox make a f***ing killing, and they make money hand over foot, and cry poverty more than any other team, all the while, laughing while depositing your hard-earned money in their pockets..

 

You are the biggest stooge ever. They run a business. Why would they want to operate at a loss? Why would they not want to make as much as possible? Isn't that the point behind Capitalism? Why would they change their business model if the seats are still filled every night?

 

Like I said before, if you don't like it, stop spending your money on the team and tune out if need be. If you don't like how they are spending the money, don't spend it on them. It seems a very easy point to grasp. If no one shows up to the games, I'm sure they might change the way they operate. Thing is the FO knows for every fan that walks out and doesn't buy season tickets or single game tickets or whatever, there will be 2 more to step up and buy them. A high school kid in his first term of economics could probably grasp this concept, but the guy who works for a bank and the sites resident senior citizen can't seem wrap their heads around it...

[BSN07]

Which was more due to the Yankees playing .695 ball after the TDL.

 

It's useless. It's the equivalent of arguing with a stop sign.

[riverside sluggers]

You know what's funny? Ignorant Red Sox fans who talk about one off-season spending spree...and not realizing that until last year, the Red Sox had made the biggest free agent one-year splash with Drew, Dice, and Lugo. We only topped it last year.

 

I did quote the wrong post, I meant to quote a700, who is about the only non-brain-dead Red Sox fan here. He's about the only one who realizes that the Red Sox make a f***ing killing, and they make money hand over foot, and cry poverty more than any other team, all the while, laughing while depositing your hard-earned money in their pockets.

 

ORS...I guess when one organization calls the other the "Evil Empire", that's not bitching and complaining, but a legitimate term to describe fiscal irresponsibility, as defined by the team that got slighted?

 

Go back to sleep.

 

Including the posting fee, $206 million for those 3 by the Red Sox. The Yankees spent $425 million on 3 players

 

And Lugo should never be considered a free agent splash signing. Just like Carlos Silva shouldnt be for the Mariners (4 years/$48 million)

[ORS]

ORS...I guess when one organization calls the other the "Evil Empire"' date=' that's not bitching and complaining, but a legitimate term to describe fiscal irresponsibility, as defined by the team that got slighted?[/quote']

No, it's not a legitimate term. I've already addressed that when I stated it was name calling. Look, it's clear why you like to classify their statements, whether they have tact, like John Henry's comments, or are tactless, like Lucchino's, as crying. Considering it to be crying allows you to psychologically dismiss it as unworthy of consideration. All the Sox FO is doing is acknowledging the elephant in the living room, the inequities of the current system, and they are doing it when prompted by the media for their reaction.

 

For obvious reasons, it makes you uncomfortable when people point out your advantage. Sure, you chime in with your false bravado about how you are happy to have this advantage, but your reaction to every mention of it reveals a desire to cover it up, and you are pathological with your predictable response. Deep down, you know that this advantage makes any Yankee success diminished as a special accomplishment, and you are one of those petty people that for some reason wants to feel special because of who you root for, because of the accomplishments of others.

 

Go back to sleep.

No, I prefer to have my eyes open to the realities of the day. It's time you opened yours.

[riverside sluggers]

http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/2009/12/11/sox-will-tender-a-contract-to-kotchman/

 

The Red Sox will tender Kotchman a contract. He could make north of $4 million through arbitration

[a700hitter]

http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/2009/12/11/sox-will-tender-a-contract-to-kotchman/

 

The Red Sox will tender Kotchman a contract. He could make north of $4 million through arbitration

A waste of money. He is a bottom of the order singles hitting slow-footed first base man. There are so many better options. I hammered the Sox for bringing up that AA kid during a key part of the season, but I 'd rather pay him $600K to be the backup. At least he has a little pop.

[yankees228]

ORS, you're making a lot of assumptions about Gom's feelings. They're speculative, and for someone who knocks other people for not speaking in fact, this surprises me. We're all sitting in front of our computers, reading people's comments. Nothing more. For one person to read more into someone's comments, and create this persona of that person, based on their purely speculative opinion, has little merit.

 

As for the Yankees, it certainly is a special accomplishment. Is it as impressive as the 2003 Marlins winning a championship? No. From a monetary standpoint, it's not even as impressive as the 2007 Red Sox winning a championship. But how impressive something is, or how special something is, is not purely measured by the financial aspects surrounding the accomplishment. For the best teams, it's tough to win a championship in this sport. In my opinion, it's tougher in this sport than in any of the four major American sports. When you continue to devalue their championship, I think you're losing sight of these things.

 

What I find almost comical is that you'll probably dismiss the above statement, because, according to you, it's coming from someone who is incapable of having an emotionless conversation about their favorite team. Once again, you're guilty of creating a persona of someone that you do not know, based purely on your speculation about that person. That's a silly practice, especially on an internet message board. My comments are not made because I'm turning a blind eye towards the advantages that my favorite team enjoys, nor are they made because I'm uncomfortable with this advantage. I acknowledge the advantage. I've always acknowledged the advantage. My comments are made because I feel that, regardless of their financial advantage, their accomplishments are still very impressive.

[Gom]

I couldn't have said it better. Thank you 228. On all accounts, I agree 100%.

[ORS]

ORS' date=' you're making a lot of assumptions about Gom's feelings. They're speculative, and for someone who knocks other people for not speaking in fact, this surprises me. We're all sitting in front of our computers, reading people's comments. Nothing more. For one person to read more into someone's comments, and create this persona of that person, based on their purely speculative opinion, has little merit.[/quote']

If he felt differently, he'd respond differently. His responses fit a pattern consistent with someone who wishes to distract all attention away from something that casts something he cares about in a negative light. When they feel that the reason for the attention is incorrect, they attempt to correct it. When they feel the reason for the attention is correct, they attempt to distract the attention. This is what Gom does in a pathological manner. If it truly didn't bother him, he'd let it go, but he can't. It makes him uncomfortable.

 

As for the Yankees, it certainly is a special accomplishment. Is it as impressive as the 2003 Marlins winning a championship? No. From a monetary standpoint, it's not even as impressive as the 2007 Red Sox winning a championship. But how impressive something is, or how special something is, is not purely measured by the financial aspects surrounding the accomplishment. For the best teams, it's tough to win a championship in this sport. In my opinion, it's tougher in this sport than in any of the four major American sports. When you continue to devalue their championship, I think you're losing sight of these things.

 

What I find almost comical is that you'll probably dismiss the above statement, because, according to you, it's coming from someone who is incapable of having an emotionless conversation about their favorite team. Once again, you're guilty of creating a persona of someone that you do not know, based purely on your speculation about that person. That's a silly practice, especially on an internet message board. My comments are not made because I'm turning a blind eye towards the advantages that my favorite team enjoys, nor are they made because I'm uncomfortable with this advantage. I acknowledge the advantage. I've always acknowledged the advantage. My comments are made because I feel that, regardless of their financial advantage, their accomplishments are still very impressive.

If you were able to emotionally detach yourself from this topic, then you'd have no problem accepting the fact that this championship (and the Sox 2004 and 2007 championships) are delegitimized. A legitimate champion is the true champion, and to me, when you are talking about sporting competition, that means an equal playing field, which is not only the field of play but the ability to acquire the players that take the field. Therefore, when teams that benefit from an easier route to player acquisition win, they did so on a uneven playing field, and they are not the true champion. The legitimacy of their win has been reduced, because they accomplished it through means unavailable to all of their competitors.

 

For some reason you are mistaking my use of delegitimization with illegitimate. I'm not saying it is completely devoid of legitimacy. I realize there is some accomplishment in winning despite the advantage. I'm saying the legitimacy is not 100%. The dictionary defines delegitimization as the act of removing all legitimacy, but that's because there is no half truth, something is not partially genuine. It's all or nothing, so I took some liberty with the word since in many cases the prefix de- means a reduction of.

[a700hitter]

I think this pretty much sums up where the Red Sox are after the Winter Meeetings. Can he (like Shaughnessy) be wrong too? Maybe all the writers that follow the Sox are wrong.

 

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/baseball/red_sox/view/20091211red_sox_stuck_in_a_corner_spending_big_on_free_agents_only_way_out/

[yankees228]

I'll let Gom defend himself, but maybe, it's possible that he is debating a point that he believes in. Maybe his style isn't the most elegant or polished, so it might lead you to believe that he has other motives, but you have to leave room for the possibility that he truly believes his point. If this is the case, and Gom is simply arguing a point that he believes in, there is no reason to look any deeper. In my opinion, that is a plausible scenario.

 

As for the Yankees, ignoring all other aspects involved in them, and only focusing on the financial aspect, I still find their victory to be 100% legitimate. You're looking at this from a perspective that encapsulates all sports together. In today's world, I don't think you can do that. Each sport creates it's own rules and guidelines. You can get into the ethos of sports all you want, but the fact of the matter is, when each sport is allowed to make it's own rules, the ethos of sports are rendered irrelevant.

 

Baseball sets it's own rules. The Yankees, along with all the other teams in the Major League Baseball, play by these rules. Due to this fact, and my belief that you need to look at all sports on an individual basis, I'm of the opinion that the Yankees 2009 Championship (along with every other championship, with the exception of 1919) is 100% legitimate.

[ORS]

That has to be one of the biggest cop outs I've ever seen. Here's an accurate translation of what you said:

 

I have no debate for the philosophical merit of your position, so I'll call it OK because they didn't break the current rules that I acknowledge are flawed.

 

Nice.

[Gom]

If he felt differently' date=' he'd respond differently.[/quote']

Thanks for telling me how to feel, think and react. I appreciate it.

His responses fit a pattern consistent with someone who wishes to distract all attention away from something that casts something he cares about in a negative light. When they feel that the reason for the attention is incorrect, they attempt to correct it. When they feel the reason for the attention is correct, they attempt to distract the attention. This is what Gom does in a pathological manner. If it truly didn't bother him, he'd let it go, but he can't. It makes him uncomfortable.

It doesn't cast it in a negative light to me. I honestly, truly, don't care. I support a team. That team wins. I honestly don't care about much of the details. People complain about the Yankees and their payroll advantage. They have every right to. However, the Steinbrenners aren't the richest people in baseball. There are other owners that could probably buy them two times over or more. Including the entire Yankees franchise. It's not the Yankees fault, it's the system. Rage against the system, but the Yankees do one thing...WIN. They have done it at a success rate greater than any other baseball team, or any American franchise. They play within the rules. If the rules are skewed in their favor, is it their fault? No. They play within the rules to win.

 

If you honestly thought I try to fight something that casts my team in a negative light, then you haven't followed my posts that closely [not that you are required to]. I was the one that pointed out how the Yankees basically controlled two teams [the Yankees and Kansas City A's] in the 1950s and early 1960's. I stated that what they did then was worse than payroll disparity, because in those days, I don't think they were playing within the rules. Why would I do that if I had something to hide, or something to be embarrased about? Quite simply...I don't care. Not one iota.

If you were able to emotionally detach yourself from this topic, then you'd have no problem accepting the fact that this championship (and the Sox 2004 and 2007 championships) are delegitimized. A legitimate champion is the true champion, and to me, when you are talking about sporting competition, that means an equal playing field, which is not only the field of play but the ability to acquire the players that take the field. Therefore, when teams that benefit from an easier route to player acquisition win, they did so on a uneven playing field, and they are not the true champion. The legitimacy of their win has been reduced, because they accomplished it through means unavailable to all of their competitors.

 

For some reason you are mistaking my use of delegitimization with illegitimate. I'm not saying it is completely devoid of legitimacy. I realize there is some accomplishment in winning despite the advantage. I'm saying the legitimacy is not 100%. The dictionary defines delegitimization as the act of removing all legitimacy, but that's because there is no half truth, something is not partially genuine. It's all or nothing, so I took some liberty with the word since in many cases the prefix de- means a reduction of.

I know what the words mean. I think the Red Sox championship was mainly delegitimized due to the fact that you're primary players, Manny and Papi, were cheaters. Not because of payroll disparity.

 

The system is what it is. I commend the Yankees for trying to put a winner on the field. What the Red Sox do disgust me overall, but make me happy since I am a Red Sox hater. They convince their fans that they can't compete, so they don't spend the money. They use the Yankees as a scapegoat. The masses, most of whom don't have a clue, buy it.

 

This would have been a much stronger argument before the wild card. However, if it really is a crapshoot...make the playoffs. Take your chances. However, what excuse will your front office have if you lose Bay and Holliday? Zero. None. However, they will use the excuses of the unfair advantage the Yankees have, over this year being a retooling year, or whatever.

 

The sad thing is...you buy it. 99% of Red Sox nation buys it. Why shouldn't you make it to the ALCS? Don't you enjoy financial advantages over the Rangers, Mariners, Angels, Tigers, Twins, White Sox and Blue Jays? At the very WORST, you'd lose to the Yankees in the ALCS.

 

a700 is the only person here I see as "getting it". You're a big market team. Act like it. Stop crying. I don't see the Phillies, Mets, or any of the other big market teams complaining about the Yankees.

 

It's an ego defect that the Front Office imposes on it's fans...while ownership pockets your money.

[Gom]

You are the biggest stooge ever. They run a business. Why would they want to operate at a loss? Why would they not want to make as much as possible? Isn't that the point behind Capitalism? Why would they change their business model if the seats are still filled every night?

 

Like I said before, if you don't like it, stop spending your money on the team and tune out if need be. If you don't like how they are spending the money, don't spend it on them. It seems a very easy point to grasp. If no one shows up to the games, I'm sure they might change the way they operate. Thing is the FO knows for every fan that walks out and doesn't buy season tickets or single game tickets or whatever, there will be 2 more to step up and buy them. A high school kid in his first term of economics could probably grasp this concept, but the guy who works for a bank and the sites resident senior citizen can't seem wrap their heads around it...

 

All valid points...like I said...they cry poverty, and pocket your money while they laugh all the way to the bank. Why?

 

Because there are two fools to step up and buy every empty seat that's given up.

 

What I've been saying all along.

[ORS]

Let's see, in the last 10 years they've made the second most amount of money and they've spent....wait for it....the second most amount of money.

 

Point: This fact renders your entire rant a load of BS.

 

Carry on.

[a700hitter]

Let's see, in the last 10 years they've made the second most amount of money and they've spent....wait for it....the second most amount of money.

 

Point: This fact renders your entire rant a load of BS.

 

Carry on.

Second in revenue and second in spending. I would say that is pretty competitive. There are 28 teams behind them, but the Red Sox owners cry poverty more than the other 28 combined. They should stop whining. If they lose the Division to the Yankees every season, it's not because of resources. They need to do a better job. Dice K, Lugo, Renteria, Penny, and Smoltz were all stupid moves and a wastes of money. They need to stop crying about their competitive disadvantage.

[yankees228]

That has to be one of the biggest cop outs I've ever seen. Here's an accurate translation of what you said:

 

I have no debate for the philosophical merit of your position, so I'll call it OK because they didn't break the current rules that I acknowledge are flawed.

 

Nice.

 

No, I acknowledge the philosophical merit of your position, but I don't think it applies. Today's sports, especially baseball, have broken away from the ethos of sports because of how large a role money plays. You can choose to dismiss it, but in today's world, money plays a large role in determining success and failure. You can argue it shouldn't be like this, especially in sports, but when it comes down to it, it is.

 

You're determining legitimacy based on how you think things should be. I'm determining legitimacy based on how things are.

[ORS]

No, I acknowledge the philosophical merit of your position, but I don't think it applies. Today's sports, especially baseball, have broken away from the ethos of sports because of how large a role money plays. You can choose to dismiss it, but in today's world, money plays a large role in determining success and failure. You can argue it shouldn't be like this, especially in sports, but when it comes down to it, it is.

 

You're determining legitimacy based on how you think things should be. I'm determining legitimacy based on how things are.

That's a very convenient position to take. When the rules are what allow for an inequity to exist, the only place you can go to discuss right and wrong is outside the rules.