Sox continue to try to deal Manny

[a700hitter]

The reason he (Figgins) is not very good at all the positions is simpile because he plays all of them. Anyone that has to play everywhere doesn't get the time that others get to improve their skills at one place. If I was boston I would drop all the prospects and maybe ask Vlad and Figgins for Manny plus 10mil??

... or maybe he would just be average if limited to one position.

[guapo34]

the angels are not trading vlady because they are trying to find someone to protect him in the lineup.

 

How do they find someone to protect him when they refuse to trade prospects?

[jsinger121]

well they did offer 65 million to konerko and he turned it down.

[TheRivernator]

you have cano pinned for the hall of fame already and he hasn't been in the bigs for a season.

 

all im doing is giving my evaluation of some of our prospects i have seen and to me some of them are impressive.

 

I NEVER said that he was going a hall of famer, where's my post on that one dumpy. I thought that his numbers would classify him in the elite status, which to me is the top 5 in the game at his position. I went back, looked at the numbers and he was around top 8 or 9, so I rescinded my statement. He is 22 and had a great yr in the Bronx, not something that you see every day. Will the ballpark help him, yeah, but lets not be calling the kettle black Mr Pot, many of your righty hitters have enjoyed playing in the friendly confines of the monster. Fact is, your "speculation" that Cano will only get worse and be a light hitting backup by the time he is through is nothing but hatred and lack of realism. Or is it lack of intellect. Hmmmmmmmmmmm......

[TheRivernator]

Hey Riverman, later for the filthy language. If you don't agree with a Red Sox fan, fine, but don't live up to the low opinion most of us Red Sox fans have of Yankee rooters. Cano has some talent, no question, but to say he is better than Loretta is loony at best, and ridiculous at worst. If we were all honest with ourselves we would all come to the conclusion that it is going to be a three-team race with Toronto in there as well, and the team that could avoid injuries and play to their abilities is going to win. You have a beef with that summation? Let's hear it.

 

Loretta 2005 .280/.360/.347.707 34 yrs old coming off career low and injury

Cano 2005 .297/.320/.458/.778 22 yrs old, .380+ september average

 

I'll take Cano...

[riverside sluggers]

I wonder what the odds are that any one of them will become a Hall of Famer. To trade a sure-fire Hall of Famer still in his prime for prospects is not equal value, no matter how hot the prospects. Only a team in financial distress should make such a trade. The Red Sox are not in financial distress.

 

then why did the red sox propose such a trade?

[Cityofchampions33]

ALright, if Wood has 50 HR potential, Morales has good power and could take over in LF, and Howie would be Pedroia's partner up the middle AND at the top of the order, I see a lot of reason to do that deal. Who gives a f*** if they make the HOF, that doesn't mean they won't be great players (i.e.i Jim Rice).

 

Also Rivernator, just because Cano had 1 half a season better over Loretta means nothing. I agree, he might very well overdo what Loretta has done in his career, and has the talent to do it. But youtake one season WAY to serisously. That's like saying you'd want Bernie Williams over Johnny Damon just because Bernie may hir a bit higher for 1/3 of the season.

[jsinger121]

you never said it but the way you talk about him senses to me you are already calling him a great yankee which he is not.

[elsrbueno]

We need more than just prospects. And why the hell are we worried about payroll flexibility? We're not talking about the Tampa Bay Devil Rays...this is the Boston Red Sox. We had the secodn highest payroll in baseball last year and have for years. We haven't had a problem paying him his money before what the hells the problem with paying it now?

 

Fielding prospects=100 loss seasons and pissed fans bro...we also need proven vets, thank God your not Theo's ACTUAL assistant, because we would be like the Arizona Diamondbacks and in last place for like ever. We have plenty of spects and have great chemistry, no need to f*** with the team anymore.

 

Dan Duquette didn't have a problem paying Manny.

 

The new ownership has been trying their asses off to move him ever since they took over.

[a700hitter]

then why did the red sox propose such a trade?

What is the point of your question? Many times the team that proposes a trade ends up getting the short end of the deal. I belieive that the fear of Manny's reaction to not being traded would drive them to make a proposal that they would not even consider if Manny was level-headed.

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

I NEVER said that he was going a hall of famer, where's my post on that one dumpy. I thought that his numbers would classify him in the elite status, which to me is the top 5 in the game at his position. I went back, looked at the numbers and he was around top 8 or 9, so I rescinded my statement. He is 22 and had a great yr in the Bronx, not something that you see every day. Will the ballpark help him, yeah, but lets not be calling the kettle black Mr Pot, many of your righty hitters have enjoyed playing in the friendly confines of the monster. Fact is, your "speculation" that Cano will only get worse and be a light hitting backup by the time he is through is nothing but hatred and lack of realism. Or is it lack of intellect. Hmmmmmmmmmmm......

The funny thing is Cano hit WAY better on the road then at home. Its not even close take a look:

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?playerId=6204

 

Its like 2 different players.

[TheRivernator]

ALright, if Wood has 50 HR potential, Morales has good power and could take over in LF, and Howie would be Pedroia's partner up the middle AND at the top of the order, I see a lot of reason to do that deal. Who gives a f*** if they make the HOF, that doesn't mean they won't be great players (i.e.i Jim Rice).

 

Also Rivernator, just because Cano had 1 half a season better over Loretta means nothing. I agree, he might very well overdo what Loretta has done in his career, and has the talent to do it. But youtake one season WAY to serisously. That's like saying you'd want Bernie Williams over Johnny Damon just because Bernie may hir a bit higher for 1/3 of the season.

 

whoa whoa whoa. I never said that Cano would have a better career. I only said that I would take Cano now. Loretta has had a solid career, I just think that what he has now vs what cano currently has and the potential that he has makes cano the better pick. I would definiteyl take it if Cano could have a .300+ career BA....

[TheRivernator]

you never said it but the way you talk about him senses to me you are already calling him a great yankee which he is not.

 

he is not a great yankee. He had one really good season for his position and his age and he has the potential to be a great yankee. Are you blind or are you just plain dumb?...

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

whoa whoa whoa. I never said that Cano would have a better career. I only said that I would take Cano now. Loretta has had a solid career, I just think that what he has now vs what cano currently has and the potential that he has makes cano the better pick. I would definiteyl take it if Cano could have a .300+ career BA....

 

If we are talking about a one year deal I would certainly take Mark Loretta over Robinson Cano. My reasons:

 

Robinson Cano needs to learn how to walk, he swings at everything and although he doesn't strikeout a ton I would imagine he drives some people crazy swinging at bad pitches. His OBP would be much higher if he would hold himself back a little and read the pitches. I think he could develop this over some time but even in the minors its what he did. Certainly I'm not saying his career is stuck that way.

 

The biggest reason...defense. Loretta is an excellent defensive player. His fielding % is always high, he doesn't make a lot of errors, he is simply someone you can depend on. Everytime a ball gets hit toward Cano you have to hold your breathe. Because of his age he makes a lot of mental mistakes. Again he may not be that way his whole career but I see a lot of Alfonso Soriano in the field when I watch him.

[KeepTheFaith1229]

Again he may not be that way his whole career but I see a lot of Alfonso Soriano in the field when I watch him.

 

Sportsblah.com:

 

Soriano fielding looks like a 9 year old trying to catch a watermelon with a mousepad.

 

 

[TheRivernator]

If we are talking about a one year deal I would certainly take Mark Loretta over Robinson Cano. My reasons:

 

Robinson Cano needs to learn how to walk, he swings at everything and although he doesn't strikeout a ton I would imagine he drives some people crazy swinging at bad pitches. His OBP would be much higher if he would hold himself back a little and read the pitches. I think he could develop this over some time but even in the minors its what he did. Certainly I'm not saying his career is stuck that way.

 

The biggest reason...defense. Loretta is an excellent defensive player. His fielding % is always high, he doesn't make a lot of errors, he is simply someone you can depend on. Everytime a ball gets hit toward Cano you have to hold your breathe. Because of his age he makes a lot of mental mistakes. Again he may not be that way his whole career but I see a lot of Alfonso Soriano in the field when I watch him.

 

Defense is an issue, but Cano gets to more balls than Loretta does (as evidenced by a much higher RF and ZR). Seriously, some of you guys make me laugh. Cano will be our 9 hitter after having 8 consecutive guys who get on base. He will be a second yr player after having a solid yr 1. He got better as the season came to a close last yr. He has high power potential and started to show the ability to drive home runs last yr and he was a reliable RBI guy in the last month and in the playoffs. Seriously, those who want to say that they would take Loretta over him are crazy, even for one yr. Teams were salivating over Cano and we could have gotten Torii Hunter, Beckett, or Crisp for him, while Loretta was obtained for a backup catcher. Cano is worth more now than Loretta is, period....

[riverside sluggers]

as for fielding stats, yes Id say Cano edges Loretta in errors that led to game winning runs for the opposing teams. How many times did that happen? It seemed like it was always against the D-Rays to boot.

 

EDIT: Crisp was offered to NY for Cano? Hardly seems plausible since they got established duo of Belliard & Peralta

[MC Hammer]

as for fielding stats, yes Id say Cano edges Loretta in errors that led to game winning runs for the opposing teams. How many times did that happen? It seemed like it was always against the D-Rays to boot.

It happened so many times that I started calling them Canono.

[MANNYHOF24]

as for fielding stats, yes Id say Cano edges Loretta in errors that led to game winning runs for the opposing teams. How many times did that happen? It seemed like it was always against the D-Rays to boot.

 

EDIT: Crisp was offered to NY for Cano? Hardly seems plausible since they got established duo of Belliard & Peralta

 

Yeah, i think Rivenator was just ranting and started making things up, like he usually does

[BudLight]

The Yankees finally did something this Winter that they have not done in a long time - they actually held on to their promising young talent and filled their needs without giving up rookies and minor league talent.

[MC Hammer]

The Yankees finally did something this Winter that they have not done in a long time - they actually held on to their promising young talent and filled their needs without giving up rookies and minor league talent.

... what promising young talent? Cano and Wang .... wow.

[BudLight]

I could provide a list of talent in the minor league system but it would really be a waste of time considering you really don't possess the ability to hold an intelligent conversation on the issue.

[MC Hammer]

I could provide a list of talent in the minor league system but it would really be a waste of time considering you really don't possess the ability to hold an intelligent conversation on the issue.

Could you please provide that list. Especially considering the Yankees have no more than 2 of the top 100 prospects in baseball, on any list I can find.

[guapo34]

The Yankee farm system used to rank at the bottom of just about every prospect list. They've worked their way up to middle of the pack. I believe BA has them somewhere around 16. They aren't awful, but they aren't very good either. Every expert would agree the Red Sox have a much better system.

 

The weekness of the Yankee system is all of their most promising prospects are AA or lower.

[BudLight]

When you trade off all of your prospects for 5 years in a row that pretty much leaves you with having to start all over again. As a result, the Yankee farm system talent is at the A and AA level, right now. Yes the Sox farm system is much stronger but is also heavily laden in pitching. Not a bad thing necessarily, but there will have to be some moves made to give these young arms their break into the major league club.

[riverside sluggers]

Pitching moves wont be that hard to come by through the next season. Wells is just about likely to be traded before the season starts, or at the trading deadline. Even so, this will be his last season anyway with Boston. Clement is next on the tradeable list. Also 2006 is looking like Mike Timlin's last season in the majors (Manny DelCarmen's 2007 role), and Foulke's last season of his contract (in comes Craig Hansen)

[MC Hammer]

When you trade off all of your prospects for 5 years in a row that pretty much leaves you with having to start all over again. As a result, the Yankee farm system talent is at the A and AA level, right now. Yes the Sox farm system is much stronger but is also heavily laden in pitching. Not a bad thing necessarily, but there will have to be some moves made to give these young arms their break into the major league club.

... and this list ...?

[TheRivernator]

... and this list ...?

 

Eric Duncan

Phil Hughes

Tyler Clippard

CJ Henry

Jose Tabata

Marcos Vecchionacchi

Christian Garcia

 

just off the top of my head. They had 4 of the top 11 prospects in low A last yr and they were all under 20. Like I said, they are taking the long way, but so far it is working.

 

And you laugh at Cano and Wang. Hmmmm, a pitcher who handled being a starter rather well and will be in our rotation. He also handled the pressure of the playoffs rather well. Damn, sucks to have him. And Cano, well we have already talked about him ad nauseum and the moronic peons on the site who cannot carry on an intelligent conversation see that he is a yankee, so he must not be good.....

[MC Hammer]

Eric Duncan

Phil Hughes

Tyler Clippard

CJ Henry

Jose Tabata

Marcos Vecchionacchi

Christian Garcia

 

just off the top of my head. They had 4 of the top 11 prospects in low A last yr and they were all under 20. Like I said, they are taking the long way, but so far it is working.

 

And you laugh at Cano and Wang. Hmmmm, a pitcher who handled being a starter rather well and will be in our rotation. He also handled the pressure of the playoffs rather well. Damn, sucks to have him. And Cano, well we have already talked about him ad nauseum and the moronic peons on the site who cannot carry on an intelligent conversation see that he is a yankee, so he must not be good.....

I wasn't laughing at Cano and Wang's ability. I was laughing about the fact that they're you're only 2 prospects above A ball besides Duncan, and considering they played last year in the bigs ... they're not prospects anymore.

 

BTW as soon as those prospects are ready George will trade them away for another 38 year old 10 million dollar player.

[TheRivernator]

I wasn't laughing at Cano and Wang's ability. I was laughing about the fact that they're you're only 2 prospects above A ball besides Duncan.

 

keep laughing. If you are too low functioning to understand the farm system philosophy of the yankees, then you should keep on laughing. That is what dumb people usually do when they are put in situations where their lack of brain capacity causes them disability. It's ok, why dont you sit this one out son.

 

As I have said many times, the yankee philosophy per cashman is to build from within with young guys, high school guys. They dont mature as fast as the college guys as evidence by the list I posted in the general forum. So a high school guy has about 7 years to make it to the bigs before he is labelled a bust, whereas the typical college kid has 2-3 yrs to really make his hay. The college kids are usually thrust quickly through the system, most of them starting in high A or AA whereas high school players stay in rookie ball and work their way up one league at a time. Unfortunately, after 2002 the yankees farm system was completely barren. Our top picks from previous yrs were either traded or fizzled and we were left with nothing. That is when the yankees started the high school drafting philosophy. So this is now 3 full drafts after that time and their low A and this yr their high A level will be stacked. 2 guys from those drafts moved past the pack and are in AAA (Duncan) and AA (Hughes) respectively. The rest are right about on target. Also, high school kids generally have less of a guarantee of making the bigs, but the best MLBers are mostly former high school picks, so the gamble can payoff huge. The red sox had a barren system at that time too, but they went the college route. Those kids should be ready in the next yr or so and all of the big namers are in AA or above. They are older, more mature, and better players at this junction, but their ceiling, as evidenced by the espn article on hs draftees vs college draftees, is lower than the high schooll guys. Overall, the sox and yankees have different philosophies, and if you do not know the philosophy and you blatantly look at the wrong levels, you wont be able to assess the farm system propoerly. Is the yankee farm system good, yeah overall. Is it ready to produce any MLB talent this yr, NO. Will it be ready to produce MLB talent next yr, possibly...