Done to a Crisp and Gonzalez Too

[Cityofchampions33]

I am soo confused

[ORS]

I know this post was a page or two ago, but c'mon!

 

One Red Seat, I expect more out of you than to fall into this absurdity. I expect more out of EVERYONE on this page who truly believes that Jason Michaels can be had for a mediocre middle reliever. Give me a break.......

 

.........EDIT 2: If Olney is correct then I can see why the Phillies would do Michaels for Rhodes. Rhodes was CLEARLY better than Mota last year. He had a really good season. I don't like him, but I can see why they would do that. Would anyone here trade Mike Timlin for Jason Michaels? Perhaps, but I wouldn't.

Call me crazy, but Rhodes' picture might be next to "mediocre middle reliever" in the baseball dictionary. I know Mota wouldn't get the deal done by himself, which is why I said Mota+ in my post.

[jsinger121]

mota plus murphy and maybe another low level prospect should be enough to get jason michaels

[MC Hammer]

I wouldn't trade a bag of dog s*** for Jason Michaels. He's a below average major leaguer, who gets in fights with cops. Why would anyone here want this turd on our team? I'd start a kid from A ball before I traded for Jason "I punch cops" Michaels.

[elsrbueno]

I am excited about that actually. I know A-Gonzo doesn't have a great bat but I'm sure Fenway will help him hit a little. He is extremely underrated defensively. The guy is outstanding defensively. It wasn't too long ago the Florida Marlins won a World Series and we are gaining Mike Lowell, Josh Beckett, and Alex Gonzalez. Match up that world series team with our world series guys....I'm excited about that.

 

Mike Lowell has a great chance to hit 30 HRs. All he does is pull the ball....last I checked there is a huge green monster that way which he can hammer the ball off of all day. I look at Mike Lowell as a major upgrade to Kevin Millar. Alex Gonzalez doesn't have the bat of Edgar Renteria but Mark Loretta does so thats where I see that production being picked up. On the other side I think Gonzo is much better on the defensive side after what I saw from Edgar.

 

Obviously Josh Beckett speaks for himself. Only part from our team last year that is missing is Johnny Damon.....switch hitting Coco Crisp could find his numbers go up with the protection he has in Loretta, Manny, and Ortiz hitting behind him.

 

I know a lot of us are down right now but you have to admit...our team has some huge upgrades in many areas. Pitching staff, defense, and in several cases the batting is much better....I'm pumped lets get the damn season going.

 

YES. The more I think about it, the more I love the idea of Alex Gonzalez in Boston. His bat is inconsistent, but he's a gold glove caliber shortstop and this isn't exactly Pokey Reese with the bat (don't get me wrong, I loved Pokey, but the man just isn't a good hitter). The guy hit 20 homers a couple years back. He's 28 which means he's just entering his prime, and while his .264./.319/.368 line wasn't great, he'd certainly be helped out by being in a better park, surrounded by better hitters. I don't think a .270 average with 10 homers and 65-70 RBIs is out of the question, and oops-- you've got Edgar's 2005 offense with gold glove defense-- for half the price.

 

These should be two separate threads, but the more I think about the Cleveland trade the less I like it. I'd love to have Coco Crisp, if the Red Sox truly are giving up Kelly Shoppach, Guillermo Mota, and Andy Marte they better be getting back a better package. Depending on who you read (Some sources say Manny Delcarmen could be involved), the package seems more or less desirable. Mota + Marte for Crisp alone is far far too much.

 

I have got to think that if the rumored deal goes down the Red Sox are getting killed. I don't know anything about Josh Bard's defense, but Kelly Shoppach is supposed to be an excellent defender and he would probably better Bard's production right away in the big leagues.

 

Riske for Mota-- the Red Sox have the advantage here. Mota is 32 years old and has had 2 great seasons. Riske is 28, and has had 3 consecutive decent seasons including the very good WHIP and decent strikeout ratings. He could be Mike Timlin's replacement down the road.

 

Crisp for Marte-- I happen to believe that Andy Marte is ready to contribute right now, and that his powerful righthanded bat off the bench would be invaluable to the Red Sox. With some work in spring training, he could learn to play first and the corner outfield positions, and get 250-300 ABS with 15ish homers and a good on base percentage. Coco Crisp on the other hand would fill the immediate need for leadoff hitter in Boston and with his mix of speed/power and decent defense in center. He's a guy I'd love to have so I'm torn here. Marte with his 40 homer potential (especially in Boston) is certainly a hard player to give up.

 

I will reserve official judgement on any Crisp trade until the real details are determined, but right now with the rumor being Shoppach, Mota, and Marte for Bard, Riske, and Crisp-- I think it's a bad trade for the Red Sox.

[a700hitter]

mota plus murphy and maybe another low level prospect should be enough to get jason michaels

You have to come back to reality. The deal is done. Marte is gone. What I don't understand is how you could get so excited over a AA or AAA guy that you have never seen play, but you throw Damon under the bus, who played 4 years in Fenway scoring 100+ runs. I have to say that I am disappointed that I will not get to see Marte in ST. All the hype made me very curious.

[ACL BoSox]

The Herald and Globe are now both reporting the same deal. Marte/Mota/Shoppach for Crisp/Riske/Bard. The deal COULD be announced as early as today.

[elsrbueno]

The Herald and Globe are now both reporting the same deal. Marte/Mota/Shoppach for Crisp/Riske/Bard. The deal COULD be announced as early as today.

 

elsrbueno dice: no me gusta.

 

Despite assertions from somebody else (who I can't remember) who said Jacobs field is a pitchers' park, according to Park Factor (see ESPN link in terms and definitions), it one of the better hitters' parks in baseball. I'm a big fan of Coco Crisp, but I think the Sox are giving up too much for too little in this trade.

[Beckett95]

just read on rotoworld that the orioles disscussed matos for graffanino. It's not going to happen now because of Crisp.

 

i would have been fine with matos batting 9th and playing great D.

[ACL BoSox]

I disagree. Like I said, Marte is a freaking prospect. Don't put so much faith in a player who hasn't performed on a major league level.

 

We know what were getting with Crisp. Marte is a gamble.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

I disagree. Like I said, Marte is a freaking prospect. Don't put so much faith in a player who hasn't performed on a major league level.

 

We know what were getting with Crisp. Marte is a gamble.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but about every player in the majors has to go through the minors at some point. True he is no sure thing but then again NOBODY is. I thought Edgar Renteria was a sure thing in the field....well damn those gold gloves he won don't make a lot of sense do they? Players get injured, struggle with new teams, struggle with a certain ballpark, stuggle in the NL or AL....there are questions surrounding every player no matter what league they play in. The scouting reports, athletic ability of the player, past statistics, injury history, etc. are all you can go by really. Its the job of the front office to figure out those questions and make the best judgement.

[a700hitter]

just read on rotoworld that the orioles disscussed matos for graffanino. It's not going to happen now because of Crisp.

 

i would have been fine with matos batting 9th and playing great D.

What about as a 4th OF?

[ksushi]

As a fourth outfielder Mato's would be great. That would be a great move.

 

If the deal goes through for Crisp and its the original Crisp/Riske/Bard for Marte/Mota/Shoppach, I'll not say a word. We win in the pitching aspect of the deal, and although I believe Marte will be huge, yes Crisp will get better and could also be huge. I've read a lot about Crisps upside and his potential to have Damon-esque numbers in fenway especially as he matures as a hitter, thats definetly possible. Crisp is a good hitter I know that much. His defense still sucks, but I suppose that could improve. I'm really swallowing the bullet here, but I think that the difference between Mota and Riske tips the scale in our favor enough to make up for Crisps bad defense. Marte could be an invaluable asset for the next six years to what ever team he may play for, but people are right when they say he is only a prospect. We really don't know. I think he will be great, but a tommy john surgery could change all that. Marte for Crisp by itself is a lopsided deal in the Guardians favor, but David Riske is a very good pitcher and he's 28 years old. That is a setup guy who will be very valuable for awhile and I like that. A 28 year old reliever with a 0.96 whip is good in my book.

 

Josh Bard or Kelly Shoppach I could care less, but it would be interesting to know if Bard has ever caught a knuckle baller.

 

If the deal in anyway includes another sox prospect going out - Delcarmen, Murphy, and Big Edgar all being names I've heard as possibilities of being kicked in - its officially a horrible deal for us no two ways about it. If their package doesn't subsequently improve to Crisp/Riske/Adam Miller or another hot shot arm they have, its not worth doing. Hell it isn't even worth discussing as a joke.

[Beckett95]

ya id like that move as a 4th OF. Matos has pretty good numbers against lefties and would be a good platoon guy with Trot.

 

looks like the eagle tribune is following crisp untill hes traded

 

some quotes from the article..

"I know Boston is a great organization," said Crisp. "If it does happen, I'll be going from one organization to another. I know Cleveland is up and coming, and I was part of that process, where Boston is more established. I'm fairly happy to play for any team. I've got relationships in Cleveland with the front office and all the guys in the clubhouse, but I assume I would be able to slide in and fit in with the fellas over there."

 

"I am a center fielder and I am a leadoff hitter," said Crisp, who entered professional baseball as a second baseman. "As far as leading off, I've been doing it my whole life.

 

"I remember playing center in (Fenway Park) and I almost cracked my ribs on that center field wall jumping into that sucker. I remember running back, tracking the ball over my head, getting a good break, crashing, falling on my back and rolling over. I remember that because in the highlight tapes that's always the one of the first ones that comes on. There's not much padding in that area of the park, although there probably isn't much padding in any part of that park."

 

"I was facing Pedro (Martinez) for the first time, playing my first game in Boston," said Crisp. "My first at-bat I hit a double off of him, almost hitting a home run. That was a fond memory.

But then my next at-bat I remember thinking there was no way he was going to throw another fastball, but of course he does because there is no way Pedro is afraid of Coco Crisp. I was like, man, look at him throwing that again. And he strikes me out. The game ended up getting rained out so my 1 for 2 off of Pedro was wiped out. That was too bad."

 

[Rdsxmbnt]

Matos would be a nice 4th OF but as someone mentioned on sosh, he put up a .297 .368 .466 .835 line vs. LHPs in 2005 but over a 3-year period he posted dismal .236 .302 .353 .655 numbers vs. LHPs so it depends on which Matos your getting and if 05 was a fluke or not.

[Beckett95]

from Buster Olney's blog on ESPN

 

• Talked to someone yesterday who knows Crisp about his moving to the Red Sox, and he believes that Crisp will either absolutely thrive on the big stage of Boston or get absolutely buried and be unable to handle it. "It's going to be all one way or the other," said the friend. "He's a sensitive guy. Depends on how well he starts out, and how much he reads what's in the paper. If he gets caught up in that, it could get ugly." The X factors in that equation will be two shifts that Crisp is making on behalf of the Red Sox: From the No. 2 to the leadoff slot in the lineup, and from left field to center.

[a700hitter]

Thrive or buried, but no in-between? Preposterous.

[gosox613]

not really, if you are really affected by the reactions, either you get wicked pumped and play well if the fans are behind you or if they arent, then you get all sad about it and suck

[a700hitter]

I realize that it can go to either extreme, but to rule out the possibility that he reacts professionally and has an average year (which for him is very good) is preposterous and it is insulting to him as a professional.

[riverside sluggers]

just read on rotoworld that the orioles disscussed matos for graffanino. It's not going to happen now because of Crisp.

 

i would have been fine with matos batting 9th and playing great D.

 

The deal still could be done with Matos serving as the 4th outfielder/platton partner with Trot.

[Beckett95]

Crisp vs. Damon

 

mlbtraderumors--

Both Coco Crisp and Johnny Damon came at a very steep price. The Red Sox mortgaged part of their future, while the Yankees simply coughed up $52MM for four years. Tossing salaries and cost of acquisition aside, which team actually has the better player for 2006?

 

Let's start by looking at Baseball Prospectus's WARP statistic. Wins Above Replacement Player is a measure of value that combines both offense and defense into a single number.

 

Damon was worth 5.5 wins in 2005, while Crisp tallied 5.6. So the players had very near equal value. Baseball Prospectus projects Crisp at 4.6 wins in 2006, whereas Damon projects at 5.7. It will be interesting to see if those projections are changed before the '06 season begins.

 

As leadoff hitters, who gets on base more often? Damon has a career OBP of .353, but his last two seasons had rates of .380 and .366. Crisp has a more pedestrian .332 career OBP, with marks of .344 and .345 in recent years. It's not a huge difference, but Damon has a clear advantage here.

 

Damon's overall offense is superior, probably worth about one win more than Crisp.

 

How about defense? Damon posted 14 FRAR (Fielding Runs Above Replacement) in 2005 and 22 the season before. Crisp managed 15 FRAR in left field last season, and 11 as mostly a CF in 2004. His playing time was limited, but it still looks like Damon may have a slight edge here. Damon had a 2.93 range factor in 2005 to Crisp's 2.23. Crisp posted a 2.32 mark in 2004. Fielding stats are imperfect, but it doesn't hurt to consider what's available.

 

One other factor to consider is that Damon is entering his age 32 season while Crisp is entering his age 26. That's an important six year difference. Crisp's most comparable player, Jim Piersall, posted a .293/.350/.449 line at age 26. Damon's closest comp is Kenny Lofton, who hit .301/.405/.432 at age 32 but managed just 465 ABs. Obviously these are just comparisons, but Lofton basically became a part-time player due to injuries and declining skills at age 35. After hitting .322 at age 31, Piersall didn't contribute much in any season.

 

It's close, but I'd rather have Damon if I was trying to win it all in 2006. Certainly Boston's decision is defensible considering Damon's contract and age.

[guapo34]

elsrbueno dice: no me gusta.

 

Despite assertions from somebody else (who I can't remember) who said Jacobs field is a pitchers' park, according to Park Factor (see ESPN link in terms and definitions), it one of the better hitters' parks in baseball. I'm a big fan of Coco Crisp, but I think the Sox are giving up too much for too little in this trade.

 

I was the one, or one of the people, who said Jacobs field is a pitchers park, and it is. I looked up espn's park factor stat and you're right, it lists Jacobs field as one of the most hitter friendly parks in baseball. Either that stat is completely useless or there was an error in calcing Jacob field.

 

In the last 3 years the Guardians have scored 129 more runs on the road than at home. They allowed 108 more runs on the road. Every single year for the last 3 years(and probably more than that. I didn't research it further," they have both scored more runs on the road, and allowed more. Yet, park factor lists it as the most hitter friendly park in the majors. Not possible.

[riverside sluggers]

I came upon this scouting report of another minlor league catcher of the Red Sox's. If he continues his play of game, could have a shot of one day taking over the regular starting job from Varitek down the road.

 

Diehard Prospect No. 34: Jonathan Egan

Jerry Beach - Scout.com

January 19, 2006 at 3:56am ET

 

Editor's Note: Diehard Magazine continues its countdown of the top 50 prospects in the Red Sox chain. Check here daily for the latest in-depth scouting report! Today: Prospect no. 34, catcher Jonathan Egan. From the moment Jonathan Egan signed a letter of intent to play baseball at the University of Georgia in November 2004, coach David Perno had a feeling Egan would never actually don the Bulldogs uniform. "Jonathan will be tough to keep from the professional draft because he is one of the best high school catchers in the country," Perno said in a Georgia press release.

 

Sure enough, Egan never stepped foot on the Georgia campus as a student. The Red Sox selected Egan in the second round of last June's draft out of Cross Creek High School. Egan signed with the Sox almost immediately and headed to the Gulf Coast League, which is a challenging task for any first-year professional but especially so for an 18-year-old catcher fresh from the senior prom.

 

Not only did Egan have to adjust to using wooden bats and facing better pitchers, but he also began learning the intricacies of catching in pro ball. "High school catchers [who] go to the GCL, it's a big challenge at that position more so than another position because we ask a lot more of our catchers than a high school program would ask of a catch in terms of their responsibility for the pitching side of the game," Sox co-general manager Ben Cherington said. "Catcher, [his] first year out, we want him to get accustomed to our pitching program and make that a priority. He did a good job with that."

 

Cherington said the Sox pay considerably less attention to a high school catcher's offensive performance in the GCL. But it was Egan's bat that catapulted him into the Sox' sights last spring: Egan has a power hitter's build (6-foot-4 and 210 pounds) and hit a robust .588 with an amazing 16 homers for Cross Creek. He drew 29 walks while striking out just nine times. Egan endured the usual growing pains in the GCL, but still provided a glimpse of his offensive upside as the cleanup hitter for the GCL Red Sox. He hit .222 in 126 at-bats and ranked first on the club in walks (21) and among the top three in runs and RBI.

 

With his skills both behind and at the plate, Egan certainly has the potential to play in the big leagues, but he's perhaps as far from Fenway as anybody in the top 50. Catchers have more to absorb and move slower up the ladder than players at other positions, and Egan's youth-he won't turn 20 until October-assures him a more gradual path. He'll likely open 2006 in extended spring training before heading to short-season Single-A Lowell when the Spinners season begins in June.

 

"He's got good raw power, a good swing and he's got a pretty good idea of the strike zone," Cherington said. "He's got a chance to hit. Catchers take a little longer [to develop because] so much more is asked of them [defensively], so he'll continue to get an opportunity to play a lot. We're excited about his future."

[Rdsxmbnt]

I came upon this scouting report of another minlor league catcher of the Red Sox's. If he continues his play of game, could have a shot of one day taking over the regular starting job from Varitek down the road.

 

No doubt this kid has potential, he was taken in last years draft (early second round I believe) out of High School where he mashed the ball. Hes somewhat raw at this point but hes got a very high ceiling at the plate.

[seabeachfred]

Maybe in four years we can have Egan behind the plate, Lowrie and Pedroia as our DP combo and Ellsbury in center. That could give one hell of an up the middle foursome of young talent.

[riverside sluggers]

It sounds like the Red are back in the fray, with Clement possibly going to Cincinatti. Theo is not backing off this deal. When he wants a guy to play for Boston, he goes for them hard. The only things troubling, theyre now talking a 9 player swap. And the fact that the Guardians have their eye on a prospect, and its not Manny D.

 

Crisp trade put on hold: Concerns about Mota’s shoulder muddle deal

By Michael Silverman/ Red Sox Notebook

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - Updated: 02:31 AM EST

 

Because reliever Guillermo Mota reportedly failed his physical in Cleveland yesterday, the Red Sox will have to restructure their deal in order to acquire Guardians outfielder Coco Crisp, according to baseball sources. Mota’s right shoulder concerned Guardians officials enough to reject him, placing the Crisp deal on hold, if not in peril. Mota had an inflamed right elbow last May and was diagnosed with shoulder tendinitis in September. Mota, who was acquired by the Red Sox from the Marlins in a November trade, was part of a three-player package that included top prospect Andy Marte, a third baseman, and minor league catcher Kelly Shoppach. The Red Sox were to receive Crisp, who would replace departed center fielder Johnny Damon, as well as reliever David Riske and catcher Josh Bard.

 

The Guardians were also going to trade left-handed reliever Arthur Rhodes to Philadelphia for outfielder Jason Michaels, who would replace Crisp. That deal is still on, and the Phillies were told by the Guardians that the Crisp-Sox trade was not dead. The Guardians would need another reliever, but it is not clear who they have targeted. Manny Delcarmen’s name has been heard often but the Guardians may have their eye on another prospect. They are not interested in new Red Sox relievers Julian Tavarez or Rudy Seanez.

 

It is believed Sox general manager Theo Epstein and the Guardians’ front office last night were trying to restructure the deal and get the right ingredients to satisfy Cleveland. It is also believed that the Reds are interested in reviving the three-team talks that would produce a nine-player swap, in which Matt Clement would go to Cincinnati.

[a700hitter]

Maybe in four years we can have Egan behind the plate, Lowrie and Pedroia as our DP combo and Ellsbury in center. That could give one hell of an up the middle foursome of young talent.

It could happen, but with prospects you never know. Right now, it is just a dream.

[nueva]

uhh whats ur say i dunno not to be a pecimist but we got a cereal box for our center fielder....

 

 

http://www.cereal.com/Breakfast-Cereals/cocoakrispies.jpg

[MC Hammer]

... uh

[nueva]

crisp i heard is young and up n coming...i think he can help us young wise and so is gonzalez we could build up for a 07/08 champ