Athletics (Ginn) vs Red Sox (Bello): 9/18/25, 1:35pm

[notin]

10 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

No we're saying the roster on the hole should have been stronger.  The injuries - Ive seen worse years.  2 rookies a few pitchers who we knew were likely to get hurt coming into the year, sure bregmans injury hurt, but thats one dude.  

It wasn’t just two rookies and a few pitchers you expected to get hurt.  Fangraphs had the Sox losing 14 fWAR due to injury, fourth most in MLB.  But that’s insignificant?

 

Sure they could have made the roster stronger, but thats doesn’t mean the injuries did not make an impact because “every team has them.”  

[drewski6]

1 minute ago, mvp 78 said:

The whole organization was relying on the development of Roman Anthony and Marcelo Mayer for years. If that's your take, that's your take. They should have relied on Roman from Opening Day on. 

For the time he was active, he was a top 20 hitter in MLB. 

17th fWAR

8th in OBP

21st in Runs

20th BB%

6th in Hard Hit %

5th in EV

 

Thats just not how it works in sports.  They were relying on rookies because they were complacent or didnt want to spend.  Teams that want to win dont think our rookies are gonna bring us there.  Even MJ didnt win anything until he was in the NBA for years.

Rookies are just not going to get you there.  ANd what you are saying, is that this team didnt expect to go anywhere this year....But thats because they were relying on rookies.

Its chicken vs egg.

If this organization was aggressive they would have not gone into the season with so many question marks.

[FredLynn]

4 minutes ago, notin said:

Maybe because they’re not left with Hamilton, Eaton, Refsnyder, etc. every night.

Are Hamilton, Refsnyder, and Eaton playing every night? Gotta check the box scores on that.....

Injuries are an excuse. All teams have them. Injured players are not in the lineup. Performing well is up to the guys who are actually playing.

[vegasbob]

With 11 and 10 games to go vs a marginal. A's team  the Sox gave the ball to their version of #2 and #3 pitchers. who were NOT injured or recovering

  Both performed poorly. Did the pressure get to them ?  Or was it just karma. chance , overdue ??

Then the lineup hitters failed against upper mid ERA opposing pitchers.

Doesn't make me a Guardian rooter but does make me evaluate the players first and FO/ Cora a distant second.

 

[drewski6]

1 minute ago, notin said:

It wasn’t just two rookies and a few pitchers you expected to get hurt.  Fangraphs had the Sox losing 14 fWAR due to injury, fourth most in MLB.  But that’s insignificant?

 

Sure they could have made the roster stronger, but thats doesn’t mean the injuries did not make an impact because “every team has them.”  

Im not saying that injuries didnt impact.  Im saying every team in teh MLB except for 3 are trying to just be good enough, adn we arent one of the three.  There is a huge complacency problem in mLB right now, thats how teams are selling off and still making the playoffs.  Thats absurd and this isnt some 1 yr fluke.  It was detroit last year, guardians this year.  We are competing against teams like KC. The whole freaking AL is full of teams like KC.

The truth is we arent trying hard enough, but really neither is anybody.  This isnt the nineties where stacked teams are losing out to more stacked teams.  That i understand.  This is a race to the bottom.  Teams are trying to just do enough, and im at the point where i kinda hope the dodgers win 10 world series in a row. Cuz im sick of cheapskate billionaires selling us a mediocre product.

The red sox had a chance this year, and appears to have blown it.  With complacency in the offseason, with complacency during the season.  Not trying to actually fix holes.  Just getting DFA guys and calling up rookies. Our biggest get on paper was May , a guy who had lost his job.  Nate Lowe also is here because he lost his job elsewhere.

Maybe go get guys who didnt get fired?

The injuries may have turned us from the 4th best team in a disgustingly weak landscape to the 6th best. Maybe that is the diff between playoffs and not. Maybe they were the straw that broke the camels back.  But Ive seen worse.  Idont care what fangraphs says, the yankess injuries were worse.  Imagine losing Crochet for the entire season in spring training.  

THe injuries dont excuse yet another mediocre team failing to seperate itself in a disgustingly weak AL. Not because every team has injuries. Not because all injuries are the same. NOt because we had a chance to fix our injuries and didnt. Because your fangraphs thing is misleading and our injuries were bad but not that bad.  You should never point to injuries to rookies to disrupt your season unless you are like an nba team who had the first pick in the draft or maybe an nfl team with a tip-top qb coming in.

[notin]

7 minutes ago, FredLynn said:

Are Hamilton, Refsnyder, and Eaton playing every night? Gotta check the box scores on that.....

Injuries are an excuse. All teams have them. Injured players are not in the lineup. Performing well is up to the guys who are actually playing.

Minimum of two playing every night, yes.  
 

Its hard to win when you’re bench to start the season is now I’m getting close to 30% of your PA…

[drewski6]

My issue right now is not that we have gone over a half decade without being truly competitive.  My issue is that we have gone over a half decade without being truly competitive in a painfully weak MLB, where teams are selling off and still finding their way into the playoffs.

Its one thing to get got by a tiger when the tiger is chasing you and 5 runners. Its another thing entirely to get got by the tiger when it is chasing you and 5 fatties.  You couldnt outrun the fatties?

[drewski6]

its the mlb that sucks right now, not us.

[drewski6]

I get that its fun trying to use what you got. Trying to win with a disadvantage of limited resources. Trying to get the most out of player x, trying to coach up player y. Trying to see something in a player that nobody else saw and now hes contributing and you got yourself a bargain.  Trying to be like I think we can be fine at 1b with a bunch of "ifs" and "justifications" but without a 1b.  Its fun in video games to take the worse team and build them up without signing the best fa's. Its a challenge and its fun.

But its also egotistical and provides cover to cheapskate billionaires and gun-shy GMs

[Old Red]

42 minutes ago, notin said:

Maybe the Sox need to start listening to me when o say “put Fitts in the bullpen!”  Just like I did with Whitlock as the Sox were repeatedly trying to square peg him into the rotation.

I think I’m going to update my resume for that GM position.  Anyone want to “vouch” for the work I did getting the Padres bullpen back in shape?  Or should I use a lower profile team like the Nats or Royals?

I’ve been saying keep Whitlock in the BP ever since the end of the 2021 season, and Houck too.

[FredLynn]

3 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

Im not saying that injuries didnt impact.  Im saying every team in teh MLB except for 3 are trying to just be good enough, adn we arent one of the three.  There is a huge complacency problem in mLB right now, thats how teams are selling off and still making the playoffs.  Thats absurd and this isnt some 1 yr fluke.  It was detroit last year, guardians this year.  We are competing against teams like KC. The whole freaking AL is full of teams like KC.

The truth is we arent trying hard enough, but really neither is anybody.  This isnt the nineties where stacked teams are losing out to more stacked teams.  That i understand.  This is a race to the bottom.  Teams are trying to just do enough, and im at the point where i kinda hope the dodgers win 10 world series in a row. Cuz im sick of cheapskate billionaires selling us a mediocre product.

The red sox had a chance this year, and appears to have blown it.  With complacency in the offseason, with complacency during the season.  Not trying to actually fix holes.  Just getting DFA guys and calling up rookies. Our biggest get on paper was May , a guy who had lost his job.  Nate Lowe also is here because he lost his job elsewhere.

Maybe go get guys who didnt get fired?

The injuries may have turned us from the 4th best team in a disgustingly weak landscape to the 6th best. Maybe that is the diff between playoffs and not. Maybe they were the straw that broke the camels back.  But Ive seen worse.  Idont care what fangraphs says, the yankess injuries were worse.  Imagine losing Crochet for the entire season in spring training.  

THe injuries dont excuse yet another mediocre team failing to seperate itself in a disgustingly weak AL. Not because every team has injuries. Not because all injuries are the same. NOt because we had a chance to fix our injuries and didnt. Because your fangraphs thing is misleading and our injuries were bad but not that bad.  You should never point to injuries to rookies to disrupt your season unless you are like an nba team who had the first pick in the draft or maybe an nfl team with a tip-top qb coming in.

"im sick of cheapskate billionaires selling us a mediocre product."

And that is part of the problem: Henry has turned cheap to maximize his profits. Breslow promised that the team would be BUYERS at the TD. And I guess they were: they bought a couple of M&Ms. He apparently has told his GM to dig deep into the dregs of the barrel to come up with has-been players to see if they have anything left rather than go after players with actual talent who fill known holes. And we the fans are supposed to just say "yes sir, may I have another"?? This organization is CRAP and yes, the Guardians deserve to be playing in Oct, not us.

[notin]

2 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

Im not saying that injuries didnt impact.  Im saying every team in teh MLB except for 3 are trying to just be good enough, adn we arent one of the three.  There is a huge complacency problem in mLB right now, thats how teams are selling off and still making the playoffs.  Thats absurd and this isnt some 1 yr fluke.  It was detroit last year, guardians this year.  We are competing against teams like KC. The whole freaking AL is full of teams like KC.

The truth is we arent trying hard enough, but really neither is anybody.  This isnt the nineties where stacked teams are losing out to more stacked teams.  That i understand.  This is a race to the bottom.  Teams are trying to just do enough, and im at the point where i kinda hope the dodgers win 10 world series in a row. Cuz im sick of cheapskate billionaires selling us a mediocre product.

The red sox had a chance this year, and appears to have blown it.  With complacency in the offseason, with complacency during the season.  Not trying to actually fix holes.  Just getting DFA guys and calling up rookies. Our biggest get on paper was May , a guy who had lost his job.  Nate Lowe also is here because he lost his job elsewhere.

Maybe go get guys who didnt get fired?

The injuries may have turned us from the 4th best team in a disgustingly weak landscape to the 6th best. Maybe that is the diff between playoffs and not. Maybe they were the straw that broke the camels back.  But Ive seen worse.  Idont care what fangraphs says, the yankess injuries were worse.  Imagine losing Crochet for the entire season in spring training.  

THe injuries dont excuse yet another mediocre team failing to seperate itself in a disgustingly weak AL. Not because every team has injuries. Not because all injuries are the same. NOt because we had a chance to fix our injuries and didnt. Because your fangraphs thing is misleading and our injuries were bad but not that bad.  You should never point to injuries to rookies to disrupt your season unless you are like an nba team who had the first pick in the draft or maybe an nfl team with a tip-top qb coming in.

So what are the three - and you’re limited to three - teams that are “trying to be good”? 
 

At least one of the Mets, Phillies, Dodgers and Yankees is already off your list.  Maybe more if you think the Cubs, Giants, Rangers, etc. are not trying…

[notin]

1 minute ago, Old Red said:

I’ve been saying keep Whitlock in the BP ever since the end of the 2021 season, and Houck too.

I loved the Houck/Whitlock bullpen, even if Houck was the closer.  But to his credit, Houck was an impressive SP last year.

I think the Sox can bolster next year’s BP with Guerrero, Slaten and Fitts in front of Whitlock/Chapman.  And Sandlin and Luis Perales as bullpen depth in Worcester…

[drewski6]

4 minutes ago, notin said:

So what are the three - and you’re limited to three - teams that are “trying to be good”? 
 

At least one of the Mets, Phillies, Dodgers and Yankees is already off your list.  Maybe more if you think the Cubs, Giants, Rangers, etc. are not trying…

I had left off the mets, but ill give you 4.  BUt note how 3 are in the nl.

[Old Red]

21 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

The whole organization was relying on the development of Roman Anthony and Marcelo Mayer for years. If that's your take, that's your take. They should have relied on Roman from Opening Day on. 

For the time he was active, he was a top 20 hitter in MLB. 

17th fWAR

8th in OBP

21st in Runs

20th BB%

6th in Hard Hit %

5th in EV

 

Roman, and Mayer were a lot more ready to go than Campbell, and Mayer should have started the season at 2B IMO. As for Anthony there really wasn’t any room for him as the roster, and OF was constructed to start the season.

[FredLynn]

11 minutes ago, notin said:

Minimum of two playing every night, yes.  
 

Its hard to win when you’re bench to start the season is now I’m getting close to 30% of your PA…

Misleading. For example, in the FLOPS 5-4 win Ref got 5 PAs, but Eaton and Hamilton got a total of 1 PA between them. Two of them are NOT playing every night, at least not starting. Regardless, its up to those who ARE playing to perform. Not going to use injuries as an excuse for choking again.

[drewski6]

The AL is so disgustingly weak that teams are selling off and still winning divisions lol.  SO when it comes to the sox , i just will not accept "yeah but we had an injury to a rookie who was playing better than we thought and we lost him, so that excuses us"

Again , we're losing to bad teams.  You shouldnt need a rookie to pull you ahead of teams selling off at the deadline.

[notin]

1 minute ago, drewski6 said:

I had left off the mets, but ill give you 4.  BUt note how 3 are in the nl.

You don’t think the Cubs are trying? Or the Blue Jays?

Really, I don’t get the argument that the Red Sox are not. I think Theyre clearly trying to win, just not in a way many fans like…

[Old Red]

2 minutes ago, notin said:

I loved the Houck/Whitlock bullpen, even if Houck was the closer.  But to his credit, Houck was an impressive SP last year.

I think the Sox can bolster next year’s BP with Guerrero, Slaten and Fitts in front of Whitlock/Chapman.  And Sandlin and Luis Perales as bullpen depth in Worcester…

Extending Chapman was a good move, but I don’t think he can be expected to repeat what he did this year.

[drewski6]

1 minute ago, notin said:

You don’t think the Cubs are trying? Or the Blue Jays?

Really, I don’t get the argument that the Red Sox are not. I think Theyre clearly trying to win, just not in a way many fans like…

Not getting a real bat that you have to pay for all season is not trying to win. Im talking about at the roster construction level. I know on the field they are trying to win.

This is ongoing.  Verdugo should have been replaced 2 years before he was.  Its too much settling for average players.  Whatever happened to arms races?

[drewski6]

now its salary dump races

[drewski6]

dumping your best hitter for salary relief is not trying to win.

[FredLynn]

10 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

dumping your best hitter for salary relief is not trying to win.

To be fair, Devers wasn't dumped for salary relief. He was dumped because he was a selfish "me first", screw the team guy. Salary relief was a by-product. I had no problem dumping him. There is no place for that kind of an attitude, especially with so many young players coming up. But what is unconscionable is not replacing him, not spending the money to take on a contract just as big at the TD. Instead Henry pocketed the money. He is trying to tell the fans that his product is a rose when its obvious that its cow dung.

[vegasbob]

Lots of stones being thrown at Breslow and a few towards Cora for the  team's seeming underperformance so far in September.  Is it injuries or just players of low upside  and minim al skills.?    Or is it red Sox fate, karma , bad luck or the curse of the Devers ?

Here's what is known:   In games 11 and 10 (to go) the Sox started their #2 and #3  pitchers in key games, at Fenway ( home cooking/sleep in own bed) , against a team about 10 games below .500 and vs pitchers with upper mid level ERAs.    Giolito and Bello  pitched poorly, ineffectively, gave up runs early and turned it into BP games.     

Failures by 2 Non-injured, veterans  in key moments .  Cora and Breslow had little directly to do with those failures.   The hitting lineup continued a team wide ( x-Story and Duran)  slump.    Cora pushed his buttons for PH'ers who also failed significantly .

The current state of the WC chances are on the players at this time.   Yes, Breslow should have divined better players but he's only human , not the Oracle of Delphi.

My point---It is up to the 26 to determine if the are going to succeed in each individual, mano a mano interaction and win . Get after it, red Sox

[moonslav59]

45 minutes ago, Old Red said:

Roman, and Mayer were a lot more ready to go than Campbell, and Mayer should have started the season at 2B IMO. As for Anthony there really wasn’t any room for him as the roster, and OF was constructed to start the season.

Agreed, and Devers at DH took away the chance for a 4th OF'er to be cycled through the DH slot.

[notin]

43 minutes ago, FredLynn said:

Misleading. For example, in the FLOPS 5-4 win Ref got 5 PAs, but Eaton and Hamilton got a total of 1 PA between them. Two of them are NOT playing every night, at least not starting. Regardless, its up to those who ARE playing to perform. Not going to use injuries as an excuse for choking again.

Romy is among the bench starters.  The Sox weren’t and shouldn’t have been counting on him to carry them either…

[notin]

52 minutes ago, Old Red said:

Extending Chapman was a good move, but I don’t think he can be expected to repeat what he did this year.

Likely not, but he hopefully doesn’t have to…

[vegasbob]

One of the things we see is that the Sox have developed a number of now experienced  utility players, some with possible upside.   Gonzalez, Sogard, Hamilton , Eaton, even Wong  plus Refsnyder as a platoon OF'er  all have certain skills, speeds , positional flexibility and situational usefulness.     Yoshida is the opposite , given his limitations and failure to hit well in his shoulder recovery year.

BUT, they are not the lineup core of a winning team.  And the 26 man active roster only has room for  2 IF's, 1 catcher, 1 OF/1Bman .   Plus you have Mayer  ostensibly ready again in '26 , along with clown Casas.

One of Breslow's challenges in the off season is how to take advantage of this lower  depth to get  a consistent solution at catcher and 1B .   Do it Craig. 

[notin]

1 hour ago, drewski6 said:

Not getting a real bat that you have to pay for all season is not trying to win. Im talking about at the roster construction level. I know on the field they are trying to win.

This is ongoing.  Verdugo should have been replaced 2 years before he was.  Its too much settling for average players.  Whatever happened to arms races?

Which team didnt get a real bat that they had to pay d for all season? The Red Sox committed $40mil to Bregman.  The Cubs traded for Kyle Tucker.  The Blue Jays had a fairly inactive offseason, although they did give a massive extension to their star slugger, and that current roster was vmcertainly built through anyone’s definition of trying.

The Red Sox did everything fans usually associate with trying to win.  They brought in expensive talent (Bregman).  They traded prospects for key players (Crochet, Narvaez).  They signed other key role players (Chapman, Wilson).  
 

They traded away Devers because he openly stated he was not going to be a team player.  And they did unload Priester for reasons I didn’t understand, and it’s made worse by his sudden emergence to relevance…

[Maxbialystock]

1 hour ago, vegasbob said:

With 11 and 10 games to go vs a marginal. A's team  the Sox gave the ball to their version of #2 and #3 pitchers. who were NOT injured or recovering

  Both performed poorly. Did the pressure get to them ?  Or was it just karma. chance , overdue ??

Then the lineup hitters failed against upper mid ERA opposing pitchers.

Doesn't make me a Guardian rooter but does make me evaluate the players first and FO/ Cora a distant second.

 

Absolutely was not on Cora who in fact was instrumental in getting the one win, 5-4 in 10 innings, with his adept handling of both the bullpen and the lineup substitutions.  

Last night was as much Story's fault (2 errors, 2 unearned runs) as Bello's.  Plus of course the weak hitting.  And the game 1 loss, 1-2, was entirely about the weak hitting.   

I still think Anthony going on the IL Sep 3 was a crucial loss.  The pitching has been this team's mainstay all season long, but you still need to score runs, and without Anthony the Sox lineup has struggled.  And that's despite the fact that Story has been incredible in September with an OPS of 1.023!!!

The Cora baiters on talksox remind of the Francona baiters of yesteryear when every single loss was entirely his fault.