Mets (Senga) vs Red Sox (Dobbins): 5/19/25, 6:45pm

[mvp 78]

20 hours ago, mvp 78 said:

Senga has an xFIP of 4.21. Sox are going to cause a bit of regression in this one IMO. 

And the Sox had him pitch to a 4.50 ERA last night. 

😎

[TheSplinteredSplendor]

12 minutes ago, Maxbialystock said:

1954 was the first year Mays' WAR was 10 or higher.  He did that six times and had 3 seasons at 9.2, 9.5, and 9.0.  When he was 39 he had 28 stolen bases.  He hit 660 dingers.  He was awarded 12 gold gloves.   He was the greatest MLB player ever.  

Interesting that you cite WAR and then ignore it when claiming who is the greatest MLB player ever.

[vegasbob]

13 hours ago, Maxbialystock said:

Maybe because there ain't no Bailey on the team.  

Andrew Bailey, the pitching coach , who has not been volunteered to be fired as many times as Cora for his development of the pitchers . Pay attention to who's on first, Max

[moonslav59]

12 hours ago, FredLynn said:

He did do ok for a while-but as you said, the wheels came off. I think he had what-10 years? And his OPS+ only made it above 89 three times. His career OPS+ is 82, which SUCKS. At the end he couldn’t find a job in the game because he couldn’t hit the baseball. He was forced out of the game at a pretty early age. 
Rafaela is headed in the same direction because he simply has no plate discipline. His career OPS+ is 84, which also sucks. I don’t see him getting better at the plate. If we want to contend for a ring we have to do better than Rafaela.

His D was always good.

His bat was...

.548 in first 164 games ('13-'14) count as one season

.832 (1/2 season)

.835

.727 for 3 seasons ('17-'19)

.814 (1/2 season in '20)

.513 over last 308 games (3 seasons counted as 2)

Essentially:

2 seasons over .800 w GG type D

3 seasons around .725 w GG type D

3 seasons below .550 w GG type D

5 out of 8 seasons doing well or very well. 3 were horrific offensive displays w GG type D.

 

[Maxbialystock]

5 hours ago, TheSplinteredSplendor said:

Interesting that you cite WAR and then ignore it when claiming who is the greatest MLB player ever.

Mays' career total was 156 and Ruth's was 162, if that's what you mean.  I would not object if anyone chose Ruth over Mays, but I still go with the five tool player.  

[TheSplinteredSplendor]

9 minutes ago, Maxbialystock said:

Mays' career total was 156 and Ruth's was 162, if that's what you mean.  I would not object if anyone chose Ruth over Mays, but I still go with the five tool player.  

B-R has Ruth at 182.6 vs. Mays with 156.1.

And Mays had roughly 2K more at bats

[mvp 78]

If Mays had played in the 20's and 30's, he would have had 200 WAR. Ruth was a great player, but the competition at the time was low. 

It's very hard to compare eras. 

IMO:

Pre-Ruth (before 1920)

Pre-Integration (1920 - 1945)

Post-Integration (1946 - 1985)

Steroid Era (1987 - 2004)

Current Era (2005 - today)

[Bellhorn04]

42 minutes ago, Maxbialystock said:

Mays' career total was 156 and Ruth's was 162, if that's what you mean.  I would not object if anyone chose Ruth over Mays, but I still go with the five tool player.  

Ruth of course was also a pretty damn good pitcher.

He picked up an additional 20 WAR from it, in fact!

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

3 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

If Mays had played in the 20's and 30's, he would have had 200 WAR. Ruth was a great player, but the competition at the time was low. 

It's very hard to compare eras. 

IMO:

Pre-Ruth (before 1920)

Pre-Integration (1920 - 1945)

Post-Integration (1946 - 1985)

Steroid Era (1987 - 2004)

Current Era (2005 - today)

That's pretty good.

Mays had to regularly face pitchers like Newcombe, Gibson and Jenkins, and try to drive hits between or over the likes of Aaron, Clemente and Robinson. 

Ruth didn't have to face Satchel Paige or pitch to Josh Gibson, or any of the other Negro League greats.

I'd just change the Current Era to Check-the-Check Error.

[mvp 78]

Ruth's five tools:

Pitching arm

Power

Hit for average

Large girth allowed him to down excessive amounts of Dewar's and ginger ale

Personality was a great match for newsreels

[TheSplinteredSplendor]

27 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

If Mays had played in the 20's and 30's, he would have had 200 WAR. Ruth was a great player, but the competition at the time was low. 

It's very hard to compare eras. 

IMO:

Pre-Ruth (before 1920)

Pre-Integration (1920 - 1945)

Post-Integration (1946 - 1985)

Steroid Era (1987 - 2004)

Current Era (2005 - today)

Maybe, maybe not.

But if it was that much easier in Ruth's time, then why didn't many others do what he did?

The gap between Ruth and most of his contemporaries was bigger than probably any other player in the history of the game.

[TheSplinteredSplendor]

27 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Ruth of course was also a pretty damn good pitcher.

He picked up an additional 20 WAR from it, in fact!

Pitching is part of playing!

[mvp 78]

11 minutes ago, TheSplinteredSplendor said:

But if it was that much easier in Ruth's time, then why didn't many others do what he did?

Didn't follow Ruth's diet or have his launch angle. 

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

28 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Didn't follow Ruth's diet or have his launch angle. 

Didn't have his lunch angle or his dinner angle: "Hey, baby -- buy you a cherry cola?"

[mvp 78]

2 minutes ago, 5GoldGlovesOF,75 said:

Didn't have his lunch angle or his dinner angle: "Hey, baby -- buy you a cherry cola?"

"Look how many lit cigarettes I can fit in my mouth at once! Want to go pole sitting after this?"

[FredLynn]

7 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

His D was always good.

His bat was...

.548 in first 164 games ('13-'14) count as one season

.832 (1/2 season)

.835

.727 for 3 seasons ('17-'19)

.814 (1/2 season in '20)

.513 over last 308 games (3 seasons counted as 2)

Essentially:

2 seasons over .800 w GG type D

3 seasons around .725 w GG type D

3 seasons below .550 w GG type D

5 out of 8 seasons doing well or very well. 3 were horrific offensive displays w GG type D.

 

Career OPS+=82

That sucks. 

[moonslav59]

3 minutes ago, FredLynn said:

Career OPS+=82

That sucks. 

It does. IMO, he played too long.

His rough start, hurt too.

I'd call him close to even, over his career, when you factor in O + D. fangraphs has him at +13.5, and I can see the thinking that it's too high. His total PAs equals about 7 full years, so his fWAR is about 2 per full season. bWAR is too high, IMO (16.6) which comes to about 2.3/full year.

I loved watching him play D, and he had a 5 year stretch, where he hit well for about 2 seasons and okay for 3.

[FredLynn]

7 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

It does. IMO, he played too long.

His rough start, hurt too.

I'd call him close to even, over his career, when you factor in O + D. fangraphs has him at +13.5, and I can see the thinking that it's too high. His total PAs equals about 7 full years, so his fWAR is about 2 per full season. bWAR is too high, IMO (16.6) which comes to about 2.3/full year.

I loved watching him play D, and he had a 5 year stretch, where he hit well for about 2 seasons and okay for 3.

He had some very good seasons, didn’t he. When he was hitting and doing his magic in CF he was a joy to watch.

But the point is this: overall his performance with a bat wasn’t good enough to keep him in the game. Rafaela is heading in the same direction. And because he has zero plate discipline I don’t see that changing.