Red Sox (Criswell) vs Tigers (TBD): 9/1/24, 1:40pm

[FredLynn]

On to NY.

Go Mets!

[mvp 78]

Losing 2 of 3 to DET is a good way to stay out of the playoff race.

Ya blew it!

[Brock Beauchamp]

2 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Losing 2 of 3 to DET is a good way to stay put of the playoff race.

Ya blew it!

Yeah, just can't have this kind of series this late in the season. Losing to Skubal is fine, he's incredible. But they needed to bounce back this afternoon and did not.

[moonslav59]

Yanks and KCR lost, which just makes our loss seem more hurtful, in some way.

I'm not sure we have enough time to reach the dance.

[moonslav59]

2 hours ago, Maxbialystock said:

Meh.  Fact is the Sox hitting/scoring, season to date, is better than the pitching.  Last night and today, agreed, the lineup has been miserable.  

Last night the Sox pitching was excellent,  Today, Criswell was fine and the bullpen stunk--yet again.  

I didn't mean to imply the "nutshell" was all about untimely hitting for us and timely hitting for our opps, but just all the ways we seem to be doing better than our opps, but end up with the loss. It can be a misplayed fly ball, an unturned DP, a meltdown by one pen guy or several, after an excellent start. It can be a long stretch where our rotation struggled and put a ton of stress on our pen and O. It just seems like we find ways to snake-bite ourselves into L's.

I'm not saying we deserve 5 more wins. We got what we deserved, but many of our losses are more on us than excellent play by our opps.

[Old Red]

2 hours ago, mvp 78 said:

Losing 2 of 3 to DET is a good way to stay out of the playoff race.

Ya blew it!

Cora said it was a predetermined plan to take Criswell out before the game even started for matchup purposes. Just an example of over managing, which Cora does often.

22 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

I didn't mean to imply the "nutshell" was all about untimely hitting for us and timely hitting for our opps, but just all the ways we seem to be doing better than our opps, but end up with the loss. It can be a misplayed fly ball, an unturned DP, a meltdown by one pen guy or several, after an excellent start. It can be a long stretch where our rotation struggled and put a ton of stress on our pen and O. It just seems like we find ways to snake-bite ourselves into L's.

I'm not saying we deserve 5 more wins. We got what we deserved, but many of our losses are more on us than excellent play by our opps.

 

[Duran Is The Man]

1 hour ago, Old Red said:

Cora said it was a predetermined plan to take Criswell out before the game even started for matchup purposes. Just an example of over managing, which Cora does often.

 

i agree. with an already overtaxed and underperforming pen, and desperately in need of an extended quality start, what does Cora do? he takes Criswell out after giving up exactly zero hits throught four innings and -GASP!- 52 pitches. my gawd, his arm might have fallen off had he reached 60. good move Cora!! 

[mvp 78]

1 hour ago, Old Red said:

Cora said it was a predetermined plan to take Criswell out before the game even started for matchup purposes. Just an example of over managing, which Cora does often.

 

Imagine getting upset that Cooper Criswell was taken out of a game…

[Old Red]

37 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Imagine getting upset that Cooper Criswell was taken out of a game…

In that situation with the way he was pitching, and for a predetermined reason not only yes, but hell yes. Cora Over Managing once again, and NOT working out.

[mvp 78]

Then Criswell comes out in the 5th and predictably gives up the game anyway and people complain about that. 

[Old Red]

8 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Then Criswell comes out in the 5th and predictably gives up the game anyway and people complain about that. 

The guy most importantly had only thrown 52 pitches, and hadn’t given up anything, and I don’t think if they hadn’t shown Hill warming up no one would have expected that he would have been taken out. If Criswell would have come out, and given up 3 HR to start the 5th I don’t think many would have said he never should have started the 5th. Even the Yuckers in the NESN booth questioned the decision more than once. A predetermined over managing. IMO.

[mvp 78]

Criswell hasn’t gone 5 innings since July. He’s not a 100 pitch guy. He’s Cooper Criswell. 

[FredLynn]

3 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

Yanks and KCR lost, which just makes our loss seem more hurtful, in some way.

I'm not sure we have enough time to reach the dance.

I'm not sure we have the TALENT to reach the dance....particularly pitching talent. This team doesn't deserve to play ball in October. Again.

[Old Red]

12 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Criswell hasn’t gone 5 innings since July. He’s not a 100 pitch guy. He’s Cooper Criswell. 

No one is saying Criswell is a 100 pitch guy. He had thrown 72, 79, and 80 pitches his last 3 starts, and only 52 today, and hadn’t been touched with 5 K’s. Detroit is far away from a murderers row, which they mentioned more than once today also on the telecast.  Like I said it was all predetermined, and as good as Criswell was pitching it should have been changed. Having Hill as your next up guy didn’t seem like a good idea either. He just pitched yesterday, and just because he throws LH, which Criswell doesn’t, and had no problem mowing them down think Hill was a better option under the circumstances just seems like over managing, and after it was all said, and done it blew up in Cora’s face.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

5 hours ago, Old Red said:

Cora said it was a predetermined plan to take Criswell out before the game even started for matchup purposes. Just an example of over managing, which Cora does often.

 

Well, once it's predetermined that's it. I don't think it's legal in real life to change something that's been predetermined. I'm pretty certain that in MLB when a manager makes a predetermination, he is not allowed to vary from it.

Hold on, I was wrong. The rulebook states if a pitcher is throwing a no hitter thru the 4th inning and has tossed less than 60 pitches, the predetermination can be reversed. But the manager has the final say, because there's no penalty for over-managing.

[moonslav59]

39 minutes ago, SPLENDIDSPLINTER said:

Well, once it's predetermined that's it. I don't think it's legal in real life to change something that's been predetermined. I'm pretty certain that in MLB when a manager makes a predetermination, he is not allowed to vary from it.

Hold on, I was wrong. The rulebook states if a pitcher is throwing a no hitter thru the 4th inning and has tossed less than 60 pitches, the predetermination can be reversed. But the manager has the final say, because there's no penalty for over-managing.

You and GG crack me up to no end!

[Maxbialystock]

16 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

I didn't mean to imply the "nutshell" was all about untimely hitting for us and timely hitting for our opps, but just all the ways we seem to be doing better than our opps, but end up with the loss. It can be a misplayed fly ball, an unturned DP, a meltdown by one pen guy or several, after an excellent start. It can be a long stretch where our rotation struggled and put a ton of stress on our pen and O. It just seems like we find ways to snake-bite ourselves into L's.

I'm not saying we deserve 5 more wins. We got what we deserved, but many of our losses are more on us than excellent play by our opps.

Fair enough.  

[Maxbialystock]

14 hours ago, Old Red said:

In that situation with the way he was pitching, and for a predetermined reason not only yes, but hell yes. Cora Over Managing once again, and NOT working out.

Love the "Over Managing once again," which certainly dovetails nicely with the CBO, owner, and others in the Sox brain trust recently agreeing to extend Cora for 3 more years @ $7M/year.  

The Sox scored 1 run in this game.  They have not won a game this year in which they scored just 1 run.  In fact, the vast majority of wins have occurred when the Sox have scored 5 or more runs.

 

[dgalehouse]

   Was taking Criswell out Cora's decision at that time or was it part of the game plan drawn up by the analytics staff that Cora is expected to adhere to?  

[notin]

36 minutes ago, dgalehouse said:

   Was taking Criswell out Cora's decision at that time or was it part of the game plan drawn up by the analytics staff that Cora is expected to adhere to?  

You’ll blame anything on analytics with no regard for whether or not you know what you’re talking about…

[notin]

1 hour ago, Maxbialystock said:

Love the "Over Managing once again," which certainly dovetails nicely with the CBO, owner, and others in the Sox brain trust recently agreeing to extend Cora for 3 more years @ $7M/year.  

The Sox scored 1 run in this game.  They have not won a game this year in which they scored just 1 run.  In fact, the vast majority of wins have occurred when the Sox have scored 5 or more runs.

 

Cora does have a history of pulling pitchers at unusual times.  He used to do it quite often with Rich Hill.

 

Bad management call or not, this loss is on the offense.  Unless you want to argue Cora got outmanaged by gearing up for a righty opener before facing a lefty for the bulk…

[Thunder]

This team has made me lose faith in humanity

[notin]

16 hours ago, mvp 78 said:

Then Criswell comes out in the 5th and predictably gives up the game anyway and people complain about that. 

Straw man argument.  He was at 52 pitches and had retired 12 of 12 hitters…

[dgalehouse]

47 minutes ago, notin said:

You’ll blame anything on analytics with no regard for whether or not you know what you’re talking about…

 You are being especially truculent today, even for you. I do think that these things happen in MLB game plans. I may not know what I am talking about, but I still have an opinion. 

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

17 hours ago, mvp 78 said:

Imagine getting upset that Cooper Criswell was taken out of a game…

 

3 minutes ago, dgalehouse said:

 You are being especially truculent today, even for you. I do think that these things happen in MLB game plans. I may not know what I am talking about, but I still have an opinion. 

"Keep me in coach; I'm pitching a perfect game."

Apologies to J. Fogarty.

[notin]

3 hours ago, dgalehouse said:

 You are being especially truculent today, even for you. I do think that these things happen in MLB game plans. I may not know what I am talking about, but I still have an opinion. 

Let me add a fact that might alter your opinion one way or another.

 

Alex Cora is not victimized by the data analysis of others.  He was hired in both Houston and Boston because of his in-depth knowledge of these analytics. He’s THE GUY for this kind of thing, and has been for a long time.  It’s a big part of why they want to promote him up the ladder.

 

If you don’t like analytics, Cora is not your savior. He’s your nemesis…

[dgalehouse]

      Does Alex figure his own analytics ? Or is he largely influenced by the analytics people in drawing up a game plan ? Are MLB managers in general expected to follow the " suggestions " of the analytics crew ?  I don't know the answers to these questions , but I do have my thoughts on it all.  And I have no knowledge of why Cora was hired, but I do think that MLB managers are not exactly calling all of the shots these days. 

[Old Red]

12 minutes ago, dgalehouse said:

      Does Alex figure his own analytics ? Or is he largely influenced by the analytics people in drawing up a game plan ? Are MLB managers in general expected to follow the " suggestions " of the analytics crew ?  I don't know the answers to these questions , but I do have my thoughts on it all.  And I have no knowledge of why Cora was hired, but I do think that MLB managers are not exactly calling all of the shots these days. 

Cora did say WE made the plan, and not I. He also said WE got burned, but didn’t take the blame. Counting on a 44 yr old who wasn’t even in baseball a few week ago was not a very sound plan to begin with. Worrying about the Tigers big LHB didn’t seem like a problem to Caswell.The problem seemed to be Caswell was the problem for ALL the Tigers hitters.

[dgalehouse]

11 minutes ago, Old Red said:

Cora did say WE made the plan, and not I. He also said WE got burned, but didn’t take the blame. Counting on a 44 yr old who wasn’t even in baseball a few week ago was not a very sound plan to begin with. Worrying about the Tigers big LHB didn’t seem like a problem to Caswell.The problem seemed to be Caswell was the problem for ALL the Tigers hitters.

  Yanking Criswell there did not make much sense no matter how you slice it.  A lot of Sox fans are saying that today. Here is a quote from a Sox beat writer: 

 

[Old Red]

4 minutes ago, dgalehouse said:

  Yanking Criswell there did not make much sense no matter how you slice it.  A lot of Sox fans are saying that today. Here is a quote from a Sox beat writer: 

Cora did get roasted on the talk shows today. Some even called it analytics driven, and OVER managing. Can you believe it?