Do Not Trade The Big 3

[Dipre]

As soon as this team loses two games in a row, a bunch of people here become insufferable and make it hard to post on the site. It's not that complaining isn't warranted, but as I understand it, this a *baseball discussion* forum, not a *let's whine until the site is unreadable* forum.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I’m more than prepared: I expect nothing major, this deadline and this coming winter, too.

 

I’m just voicing my view that we are overloaded on everyday players,especially in the OF and with LHBs. We should trade from our strength to address our higher need areas.

 

We also have too much quantity and not enough high quality players. One or two trades of3 for 1 seems justified.

 

I agree Abreu is expendable, and maybe at peak value right now. He has talent, but lacks the maturity to know when to temper its use for max production. He gets into streaks where he tries to Roy Hobbs every pitch, even with two strikes, and shows off his arm too much, which has led to an MLB-leading 5 outfield errors.

 

Maybe he's one of the many who can't seem to slow the game down when it counts (I admit I've been suspicious since hardball impresario Tom Werner touted Abreu in the offseason... plus, would Houston give up prospects they liked for what for them was a back-up catcher?).

[mvp 78]

As soon as this team loses two games in a row, a bunch of people here become insufferable and make it hard to post on the site. It's not that complaining isn't warranted, but as I understand it, this a *baseball discussion* forum, not a *let's whine until the site is unreadable* forum.

 

Same as it ever was.

[moonslav59]

I agree Abreu is expendable, and maybe at peak value right now. He has talent, but lacks the maturity to know when to temper its use for max production. He gets into streaks where he tries to Roy Hobbs every pitch, even with two strikes, and shows off his arm too much, which has led to an MLB-leading 5 outfield errors.

 

Maybe he's one of the many who can't seem to slow the game down when it counts (I admit I've been suspicious since hardball impresario Tom Werner touted Abreu in the offseason... plus, would Houston give up prospects they liked for what for them was a back-up catcher?).

 

It's hard to know how to value Abreu, and all it takes is for one GM to like him, a lot. There is much to like, and even his defense seems to be pretty decent and can improve. His worst fault is how he hits LHPs. As of now, he is a very good strong side platoon RF'er and okay CF'er. He'd be a plus LF'er for most teams.

 

A simple swap of Abreu for a RHB might be a big help, and maybe we get a better player if we trade the 5 years of Abreu for 2-3 years from a RHB (SS, 2B, 1B, RF?)

 

We can us Ref in LF and O'Neill in RF vs LHPs, and Rafaela in CF vs RHPs, but then our middle IF looks shaky. Adding a RHB middle IF'er at the deadline could cure that, at a low cost.

 

I doubt we trade a top 6 prospect (Anthony, Mayer, Teel, Campbell, Bleis & Cespedes,) and I don't think we trade Zanetello, Perales, Fitts or Sandlin, either, unless we get back a good pitcher with 1.3+ years of team control. That still leaves some decent talent that can be traded for a 4/5 SPer, a RP'er or two and a RHB that plays SS (maybe 1B or 2B.)

 

I may be over valuing these guys, but we did get Schwarber for Aldo Ramirez, so maybe we can do something with these guys:

Abreu

Yorke

Meidroth

Lugo

Paulino

Castro

Jordan

Hickey

Mata (out of options and rehab almost done)

 

Additions like these guys might help:

Walter, Wikelman or Bastardo

Coffey or Sogard

Romero or McDonough

Guerrero or Hoppe

Brannon or Zeferjahn

[Dipre]

Same as it ever was.

 

Well goddamn. You have me there.

[moonslav59]

The trade deadline, this year is 6 pm on JUL 30th.

 

That leaves just 7 games in 8 days for the Sox to "pick a lane."

 

3 @ COL

Off Day (THUR)

3 v NYY

1 v SEA

 

We have a real tough stretch starting with NYY on FRI.

3 NYY

3 SEA

3 @ TEX

3 @ KCR

3 HOU

3 TEX

4 @BAL

3 @HOU

3 AZ

 

[mvp 78]

Well goddamn. You have me there.

 

I mean, I can't think of a time that posters were happy when the Sox got swept on a West Coast swing. I also remember times when this site was much more toxic.

 

The lows stay low for a long time and the highs are fleeting. I think that's the nature of fandom.

[Bellhorn04]

As soon as this team loses two games in a row, a bunch of people here become insufferable and make it hard to post on the site. It's not that complaining isn't warranted, but as I understand it, this a *baseball discussion* forum, not a *let's whine until the site is unreadable* forum.

 

You're kind of getting on the high horse here, man. Your first post today said this weekend sucked.

 

You can always put people on ignore or scroll past the negative ones.

[mvp 78]

The trade deadline, this year is 6 pm on JUL 30th.

 

That leaves just 7 games in 8 days for the Sox to "pick a lane."

 

3 @ COL

Off Day (THUR)

3 v NYY

1 v SEA

 

We have a real tough stretch starting with NYY on FRI.

3 NYY

3 SEA

3 @ TEX

3 @ KCR

3 HOU

3 TEX

4 @BAL

3 @HOU

3 AZ

 

 

Need to at least take 2 of 3 against COL. If they have a poor showing against NYY, does it force Breslow's hand to deal?

[moonslav59]

I mean, I can't think of a time that posters were happy when the Sox got swept on a West Coast swing. I also remember times when this site was much more toxic.

 

The lows stay low for a long time and the highs are fleeting. I think that's the nature of fandom.

 

Winning more than losing seems to keep some of the instigators at bay, a bit more than when we are losing. Certain posters show up much more often, when losing.

 

I've done my fair share of instigating, too, so I'm not trying to throw stones, but nothing like a losing streak to bring out the worst is some.

[mvp 78]

Pedro Martinez is not walking through that door. David Ortiz is not walking through that door, and Dustin Pedroia isn't walking through that door. And if you expect them to walk through that door, they're going to be gray and old. All the negativity in this town sucks. I've been around when Jim Rice was booed. I've been around when Carl Yastrzemski was booed, and it stinks. It makes the greatest town, the greatest city in the world, lousy.

[moonslav59]

Need to at least take 2 of 3 against COL. If they have a poor showing against NYY, does it force Breslow's hand to deal?

 

Hard to know. IMO, unless we go 5-2 or 1-6/2-5, we will be on the bubble of which lane to pick.

 

I think we will be cautious buyers, giving up only blocked or duplicated values for useful but not great returns. We may trade Abreu and any prospects at #10 or below for a 4/5 SP, 1-2 RP'ers and a RHB that can play SS, or maybe 1B, 2B or RF (if Abreu is traded.)

 

If we do trade Abreu, adding a RHB SS would allow Rafaela to go back to CF FT.

 

I'm not sure how many RHB SSs are on the market, but we just need a rental to bridge to Mayer and Story in 2025. I think DHam, Grissom and others offer enough MI depth to not need a keeper at SS.

 

We can get by with an OF of Refsnyder, Duran, Rafaela and O'Neall until Anthony replaces O'Neill in 2025. (We also might have Campbell, Lugo, Valdez available in LF in '25.)

 

1B depth is a need, but more for 2024 than 2025.

 

Our pen needs help.

[Bellhorn04]

Pedro Martinez is not walking through that door. David Ortiz is not walking through that door, and Dustin Pedroia isn't walking through that door. And if you expect them to walk through that door, they're going to be gray and old. All the negativity in this town sucks. I've been around when Jim Rice was booed. I've been around when Carl Yastrzemski was booed, and it stinks. It makes the greatest town, the greatest city in the world, lousy.

 

And we've all been around to see Mookie Betts traded.

[Maxbialystock]

Well goddamn. You have me there.

 

I think of myself as upbeat, but I too have griped on talksox. In fact, that's one of its great values because most of us want/need to vent when we are frustrated by what we've just seen.

 

Apparently, the Sox fans who pay big bucks to watch games at antiquated Fenway Park are also grumbling. Before covid, the Sox were drawing 36K or so per game. Now it's 32K for 3 straight seasons, including this one.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Im not seeing major negativity on the forum, just a few posts of reality after just watching a weekend of some of Boston's weaknesses exposed: thin back-end relief and utter hopelessness vs. left-handed pitching.

 

It was also alarming that many Red Sox batters looked rusty after the All-Star break, instead of well-rested. Even the announcers noted how hot teams don't benefit from getting four days off.

 

For a slumping club like LA, which had just dropped 6 of 7 -- the last two walk-off losses -- the break came at perfect time... to reset.

[mvp 78]

I think of myself as upbeat, but I too have griped on talksox. In fact, that's one of its great values because most of us want/need to vent when we are frustrated by what we've just seen.

 

Apparently, the Sox fans who pay big bucks to watch games at antiquated Fenway Park are also grumbling. Before covid, the Sox were drawing 36K or so per game. Now it's 32K for 3 straight seasons, including this one.

 

The attendance is down, but by MLB standards that is barely a drop. Go look at the roller coaster attendance swings franchises like the Padres, Giants, Mariners, Phillies, Seattle, NY Mets, Toronto have had over the past 10-15 years. BoSox have been much more consistent similar to the Cardinals.

[Dipre]

You're kind of getting on the high horse here, man. Your first post today said this weekend sucked.

 

You can always put people on ignore or scroll past the negative ones.

 

I am pretty tall and fat. I wouldn't be able to get on a small horse without crushing it.

 

The way I see it, pointing out how much it sucks when they lose, and what could improve the team is one thing. Being an insufferable whiner is another. Not saying that's you, just in general.

[Dipre]

Im not seeing major negativity on the forum, just a few posts of reality after just watching a weekend of some of Boston's weaknesses exposed: thin back-end relief and utter hopelessness vs. left-handed pitching.

 

It was also alarming that many Red Sox batters looked rusty after the All-Star break, instead of well-rested. Even the announcers noted how hot teams don't benefit from getting four days off.

 

For a slumping club like LA, which had just dropped 6 of 7 -- the last two walk-off losses -- the break came at perfect time... to reset.

 

This isn't whining, these are facts, and a logical thought proces, not "Breslow sucks and they gave up before the season began" type s***.

[notin]

I am pretty tall and fat. I wouldn't be able to get on a small horse without crushing it.

 

The way I see it, pointing out how much it sucks when they lose, and what could improve the team is one thing. Being an insufferable whiner is another. Not saying that's you, just in general.

 

 

As much as they bother me sometimes, I’m going to defend the whiners. For some (maybe most?), it’s cathartic to type out some post-loss negativity on here, and if it keeps you from kicking the dog or deep-frying your daughter’s Guinea pig, the one with the white feet, not the other one, then I understand and support it. And if your negativity bothers me, that’s on me. And I can occasionally counter the negativity with truth-based reality if I think such a thing exists.

 

Of course, every now and then I need a catharthis myself…

[Dipre]

As much as they bother me sometimes, I’m going to defend the whiners. For some (maybe most?), it’s cathartic to type out some post-loss negativity on here, and if it keeps you from kicking the dog or deep-frying your daughter’s Guinea pig, the one with the white feet, not the other one, then I understand and support it. And if your negativity bothers me, that’s on me. And I can occasionally counter the negativity with truth-based reality if I think such a thing exists.

 

Of course, every now and then I need a catharthis myself…

 

Well I guess whining about the whiners is my way of coping. So whatever, I'll just take a vacation from the site until this dies down.

[moonslav59]

Im not seeing major negativity on the forum, just a few posts of reality after just watching a weekend of some of Boston's weaknesses exposed: thin back-end relief and utter hopelessness vs. left-handed pitching.

 

It was also alarming that many Red Sox batters looked rusty after the All-Star break, instead of well-rested. Even the announcers noted how hot teams don't benefit from getting four days off.

 

For a slumping club like LA, which had just dropped 6 of 7 -- the last two walk-off losses -- the break came at perfect time... to reset.

 

Agreed. I expected more negativity than this

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Everybody's looking for starting pitching and healthy bullpeners (the irony of misnomers). Asking prices from sellers have to be ridiculous with the deadline a week away, but it's almost guaranteed highly-regarded prospects will be traded soon... but probably not by Boston.

 

The evident wear and tear on the entire the Red Sox pitching staff -- already -- has created the need for multiple starters and relievers to legitimately do battle through August and September. Are that many acquisitions even feasible at this point?

 

The 2013 Sox traded Jose Iglesias, at the time a top-rated shortstop prospect, for pitcher Jake Peavy -- who was then a bottom-of-the-rotation starter. Peavy helped win a ring, but was he really worth a guy who became a big league starting shortstop for a decade? Would you swap Franklin Arias, the .400-hitter and flashy glove in the low minors, for Austin Gomber?

 

I can't imagine parting with any of the Big Three, nor envision any deal where two of them are packaged together for maybe one good arm. Then again, it wasn't too long ago when Benintendi and Moncada weren't just Top 100 prospects, but rated by some sites as #1 OVERALLS in all of baseball. Now they're both still under 30 and below-average MLBers (who have to wear belts to keep their jeans up).

[notin]

Everybody's looking for starting pitching and healthy bullpeners (the irony of misnomers). Asking prices from sellers have to be ridiculous with the deadline a week away, but it's almost guaranteed highly-regarded prospects will be traded soon... but probably not by Boston.

 

The evident wear and tear on the entire the Red Sox pitching staff -- already -- has created the need for multiple starters and relievers to legitimately do battle through August and September. Are that many acquisitions even feasible at this point?

 

The 2013 Sox traded Jose Iglesias, at the time a top-rated shortstop prospect, for pitcher Jake Peavy -- who was then a bottom-of-the-rotation starter. Peavy helped win a ring, but was he really worth a guy who became a big league starting shortstop for a decade? Would you swap Franklin Arias, the .400-hitter and flashy glove in the low minors, for Austin Gomber?

 

I can't imagine parting with any of the Big Three, nor envision any deal where two of them are packaged together for maybe one good arm. Then again, it wasn't too long ago when Benintendi and Moncada weren't just Top 100 prospects, but rated by some sites as #1 OVERALLS in all of baseball. Now they're both still under 30 and below-average MLBers (who have to wear belts to keep their jeans up).

 

 

This is the third season of 3 wild cards and third season of expanded buyers at the deadline. Have we seen that many top prospects get dealt in deadline deals? (Have we seen any?)

[Bellhorn04]

This is the third season of 3 wild cards and third season of expanded buyers at the deadline. Have we seen that many top prospects get dealt in deadline deals? (Have we seen any?)

 

Didn't we establish that the Rangers dealt off some significant goodies last year?

[notin]

Everybody's looking for starting pitching and healthy bullpeners (the irony of misnomers). Asking prices from sellers have to be ridiculous with the deadline a week away, but it's almost guaranteed highly-regarded prospects will be traded soon... but probably not by Boston.

 

The evident wear and tear on the entire the Red Sox pitching staff -- already -- has created the need for multiple starters and relievers to legitimately do battle through August and September. Are that many acquisitions even feasible at this point?

 

The 2013 Sox traded Jose Iglesias, at the time a top-rated shortstop prospect, for pitcher Jake Peavy -- who was then a bottom-of-the-rotation starter. Peavy helped win a ring, but was he really worth a guy who became a big league starting shortstop for a decade? Would you swap Franklin Arias, the .400-hitter and flashy glove in the low minors, for Austin Gomber?

 

I can't imagine parting with any of the Big Three, nor envision any deal where two of them are packaged together for maybe one good arm. Then again, it wasn't too long ago when Benintendi and Moncada weren't just Top 100 prospects, but rated by some sites as #1 OVERALLS in all of baseball. Now they're both still under 30 and below-average MLBers (who have to wear belts to keep their jeans up).

 

 

Iglesias was ranked #96 by MLB that season, and ignored by BA and BP. The Sox were using him as a 3b prior to the trade, as they had a veteran SS in Stephen Drew. Once they dealt Iglesias, they did eventually call up another SS prospect to play 3b, but this one was ranked #20 by MLB, and also ranked by BA (#8) and BP (#12)…

[moonslav59]

Everybody's looking for starting pitching and healthy bullpeners (the irony of misnomers). Asking prices from sellers have to be ridiculous with the deadline a week away, but it's almost guaranteed highly-regarded prospects will be traded soon... but probably not by Boston.

 

The evident wear and tear on the entire the Red Sox pitching staff -- already -- has created the need for multiple starters and relievers to legitimately do battle through August and September. Are that many acquisitions even feasible at this point?

 

The 2013 Sox traded Jose Iglesias, at the time a top-rated shortstop prospect, for pitcher Jake Peavy -- who was then a bottom-of-the-rotation starter. Peavy helped win a ring, but was he really worth a guy who became a big league starting shortstop for a decade? Would you swap Franklin Arias, the .400-hitter and flashy glove in the low minors, for Austin Gomber?

 

I can't imagine parting with any of the Big Three, nor envision any deal where two of them are packaged together for maybe one good arm. Then again, it wasn't too long ago when Benintendi and Moncada weren't just Top 100 prospects, but rated by some sites as #1 OVERALLS in all of baseball. Now they're both still under 30 and below-average MLBers (who have to wear belts to keep their jeans up).

 

I do think the sheer amount of buyers and tire-kickers will be as high as ever, this deadline, and that should drive the cost of return higher and higher, but I do think we can still get some meaningful pieces without giving up not only any top 3 prospects, but maybe not top 4-6 either. Keeping Perales, Fitts and Sandlin could be possible, too, but if we get some decent pitching in return, we will likely have to part with some of our own pitching prospects.

 

We could trade the LHB Abreu, who really struggles vs LHPs. We have O'Neill, Ref and Rafaela (Yorke, Lugo & Campbell on the farm as possible LF'ers) as RHBs and Duran and Yoshida (DH first/LF option) with Anthony knocking at the door as LHB OF'ers.

 

I think we could get some decent returns for these guys, but maybe I'm just a pink hat homer:

Abreu

Meidroth

Lugo

Valdez

DHam (if we get a RHB SS)

 

Maybe decent returns for:

Mata or Wikelman

Murphy or Walter

Paulino or Castro

Hickey or Brannon

Jordan or Coffey

Romero or Anderson

 

Not sure we want to part with Zanetello, the Garcia brothers, E R-C or Dobbins, but if we go all in, we probably will have to.

 

I think it can be done, but do we really want to nearly gut our entire farm depth for a longshot chance at 2024 glory?

 

I know some fans are all about the here and now, and I get their points, but I doubt we scrap the 5 year rebuild plan based on the hopes the 2024 team has given us up until 4 days ago.

 

[notin]

Didn't we establish that the Rangers dealt off some significant goodies last year?

 

The Rangers dealt two players who would get ranked by BA the following season for Montgomery and Stratton. The Astros also dealt their top prospect for the then-reigning Cy Young winner..

[moonslav59]

Iglesias was ranked #96 by MLB that season, and ignored by BA and BP. The Sox were using him as a 3b prior to the trade, as they had a veteran SS in Stephen Drew. Once they dealt Iglesias, they did eventually call up another SS prospect to play 3b, but this one was ranked #20 by MLB, and also ranked by BA (#8) and BP (#12)…

 

I think there was something about Iggy that rubbed the Sox brass the wrong way, although the next regime did bring him back (for nothing in return, I might add.)

 

I was very high on Iggy, but I felt Peavy was a good return. He was not a rental, either. He has another year of control, and eventually we traded him for Hembree and Escobar. (Later, Hembree was traded with Workman for Pivetta.)

 

Perhaps, the worst part of that trade was us also giving up Montas.

 

[Bellhorn04]

The Rangers dealt two players who would get ranked by BA the following season for Montgomery and Stratton. The Astros also dealt their top prospect for the then-reigning Cy Young winner..

 

Plus Ragans, who I guess would not have been technically a prospect any more, but certainly looking like a massive haul for the sellers.

[notin]

I think there was something about Iggy that rubbed the Sox brass the wrong way, although the next regime did bring him back (for nothing in return, I might add.)

 

I was very high on Iggy, but I felt Peavy was a good return. He was not a rental, either. He has another year of control, and eventually we traded him for Hembree and Escobar. (Later, Hembree was traded with Workman for Pivetta.)

 

Perhaps, the worst part of that trade was us also giving up Montas.

 

 

Even at the time, I would have preferred dealing Middlebrooks. His stay there was brief, but Iglesias might have been the best defensive 3b in Sox history. Bogaerts proved uncomfortable at 3b and needed to be at SS. But Iglesias didn’t…