Red Sox ownership

[notin]

would it really be that unreasonable to expect old miser John Henry to actually talk and lay out what his exact plans are?? No I didn't expect he would actually do that but it would be nice

 

To be fair here, there aren't many owners who do that in any sport.

 

He has front office people like Kennedy who lay it out for us, but they things like "full throttle" and then do not even come close to following up on that...

[Maxbialystock]

Yup.

 

Sox payroll this year is 11th of 30 teams--$182M. Of that, $24M goes to Sale and Turner, who are both playing elsewhere, and $62M goes to Story, Yoshida, Giolito, and Whitlock, all of whom are on the IL. Right now it looks like Yoshida is the only one who might return, and he is certifiably a DH who can't hit.

 

I hasten to add that none of Story, Yoshida, Giolito, and Whitlock has played/pitched to a level justifying their salaries. Story is a vastly overpaid defensive SS/2b who has yet to deliver at the plate in 3 seasons with the Sox. He makes the vastly overpaid Chris Sale (or David Price) look like the bargain of the century.

 

Of the remaining $96M, a total of $12M pays the rotation of Bello, Pivetta, Crawford, Houck, and Criswell. And that rotation is the one real strength of this Sox team. Meanwhile, Kelsey Jansen is paid $16M to close and has pitched a total of 16 innings to date while he basically uses just one pitch, a cutter.

 

In other words, whatever brain trust John Henry employs is demonstrably brain dead about how to build a competitive MLB team. Chaim Bloom gets most of the blame, but not all of it. He's gone, and maybe the new guy is an improvement, but it's arguably too soon for JH to believe he can be trusted to spend big.

Edited May 20, 2024 by Maxbialystock

[mvp 78]

Sox payroll this year is 11th of 30 teams--$182M. Of that, $24M goes to Sale and Turner, who are both playing elsewhere, and $62M goes to Story, Yoshida, Giolito, and Whitlock, all of whom are on the IL. Right now it looks like Yoshida is the only one who might return, and he is certifiably a DH who can't hit.

 

I hasten to add that none of Story, Yoshida, Giolito, and Whitlock has played/pitched to a level justifying their salaries. Story is a vastly overpaid defensive SS/2b who has yet to deliver at the plate in 3 seasons with the Sox. He makes the vastly overpaid Chris Sale (or David Price) look like the bargain of the century.

 

Of the remaining $96M, a total of $12M pays the rotation of Bello, Pivetta, Crawford, Houck, and Criswell. And that rotation is the one real strength of this Sox team. Meanwhile, Kelsey Jansen is paid $16M to close and has pitched a total of 16 innings to date while he basically uses just one pitch, a cutter.

 

In other words, whatever brain trust John Henry employs is demonstrably brain dead about how to build a competitive MLB team. Chaim Bloom gets most of the blame, but not all of it. He's gone, and maybe the new guy is an improvement, but it's arguably too soon for JH to believe he can be trusted to spend big.

 

Henry is at fault for who he hires and how much he allots to payroll. They cheapened out this winter and picked Giolito over Montgomery. Montgomery can provide innings and has been decent except for one start against the Dodgers this season. Seems like they could have signed him to a fairly decent medium length deal. Would be helpful since the rest of the rotation is the walking wounded.

[Maxbialystock]

Henry is at fault for who he hires and how much he allots to payroll. They cheapened out this winter and picked Giolito over Montgomery. Montgomery can provide innings and has been decent except for one start against the Dodgers this season. Seems like they could have signed him to a fairly decent medium length deal. Would be helpful since the rest of the rotation is the walking wounded.

 

Of the top ten payrolls in MLB, five (Yankees, Phillies, Braves, Dodgers, and Cubs) have winning records and five (Mets, Astros, Rangers, Blue Jays, and Giants) do not.

 

Of the bottom ten payrolls, three are doing well: 22d Brewers, 27-19; 25th Orioles, 29-15; and 26th Guardians, 30-17.

 

And of the middle ten payrolls (11th through 20th), just three have winning records: Seattle, 25-22; Minnesota, 24-22; and Kansas City, 29-19.

 

And this. The Yankees are the presumptive rivals of the Sox and have won an insane 27 World Series, by far the most in MLB. They also spend, on average, more than any other MLB team on payroll because they can afford to. Since John Henry became the Sox owner in 2002, the Sox have won 4 WS and the Yankees 1.

[notin]

Of the top ten payrolls in MLB, five (Yankees, Phillies, Braves, Dodgers, and Cubs) have winning records and five (Mets, Astros, Rangers, Blue Jays, and Giants) do not.

 

Of the bottom ten payrolls, three are doing well: 22d Brewers, 27-19; 25th Orioles, 29-15; and 26th Guardians, 30-17.

 

And of the middle ten payrolls (11th through 20th), just three have winning records: Seattle, 25-22; Minnesota, 24-22; and Kansas City, 29-19.

 

And this. The Yankees are the presumptive rivals of the Sox and have won an insane 27 World Series, by far the most in MLB. They also spend, on average, more than any other MLB team on payroll because they can afford to. Since John Henry became the Sox owner in 2002, the Sox have won 4 WS and the Yankees 1.

 

The Yankees have absolutely won their share of titles by flexing their financial muscle, because you can do that nowadays, But if you read "Summer of '49", at the end of the book, Halberstam details some conversations between Sox and Yankee players to reveal that the Yankees were actually the lesser paid team, and they outplayed the Red Sox because they needed to in order to get the extra money from winning the title. Oh, how times have changed...

[Old Red]

Henry is at fault for who he hires and how much he allots to payroll. They cheapened out this winter and picked Giolito over Montgomery. Montgomery can provide innings and has been decent except for one start against the Dodgers this season. Seems like they could have signed him to a fairly decent medium length deal. Would be helpful since the rest of the rotation is the walking wounded.

 

At the time the Red Sox signed Gio when no one else was knocking on his door I don’t believe Monty was into taking a short term deal, which only came about later on.

[Maxbialystock]

Henry is at fault for who he hires and how much he allots to payroll. They cheapened out this winter and picked Giolito over Montgomery. Montgomery can provide innings and has been decent except for one start against the Dodgers this season. Seems like they could have signed him to a fairly decent medium length deal. Would be helpful since the rest of the rotation is the walking wounded.

 

The rotation this year is a freaking triumph, nothing less--without Montgomery, Giolito, Sale, Eovaldi, ERod, whoever. It's far and away the best part of the 2024 Sox.

 

And it might not last, I agree. For example, Houck and Crawford lead in IP with 58 each, which ranks them 14th in MLB for most IP. But then a big drop down to Bello with 36, Criswell 29, and Pivetta 26. Whitlock with 18 IP may be headed for TJ surgery. Bello got hit hard by the Cardinals in his last start--7 hits, 3 dingers, and 5 ER in 4.2 innings.

[mvp 78]

The rotation this year is a freaking triumph, nothing less--without Montgomery, Giolito, Sale, Eovaldi, ERod, whoever. It's far and away the best part of the 2024 Sox.

 

And it might not last, I agree. For example, Houck and Crawford lead in IP with 58 each, which ranks them 14th in MLB for most IP. But then a big drop down to Bello with 36, Criswell 29, and Pivetta 26. Whitlock with 18 IP may be headed for TJ surgery. Bello got hit hard by the Cardinals in his last start--7 hits, 3 dingers, and 5 ER in 4.2 innings.

 

Bello, Whitlock and Pivetta all missed time. Having a guy like Montgomery who takes the ball everyday is a great value to a team.

[Maxbialystock]

Henry is at fault for who he hires and how much he allots to payroll. They cheapened out this winter and picked Giolito over Montgomery. Montgomery can provide innings and has been decent except for one start against the Dodgers this season. Seems like they could have signed him to a fairly decent medium length deal. Would be helpful since the rest of the rotation is the walking wounded.

 

I agree JH is ultimately responsible. But, first and foremost, we must acknowledge he is easily the best Sox owner ever because MLB in the John Henry era has been far more competitive than back in the Sox first quarter century (1901-26). The Yankees have outspent the Sox, 2002-2024, but have 1 WS to the Sox 4.

 

I do agree John Henry cut payroll steadily after the 2019 season and with Chaim Bloom as his CBO. This especially applied to pitching. In his defense, however, he was paying a bundle for David Price after he went to the Dodgers and for Chris Sale, who spent big parts of 4 seasons (2020-2023) on the IL. I think Price and Sale convinced JH big contracts for starters were just stupid. This year so far he has 5 starters--Bello, Pivetta, Crawford, Houck, and Criswell--who are costing him $12M in salary and doing a pretty good job.

 

I can't say definitively whether JH is right or wrong on the current track, but do think he has earned the right to be wrong, at least for awhile. Right now I think the only big money player who is earning his pay is Rafael Devers. Story, Giolito, Yoshida, Sale, and Jansen are overpaid.

[moonslav59]

Bello, Whitlock and Pivetta all missed time. Having a guy like Montgomery who takes the ball everyday is a great value to a team.

 

He sure would have, and maybe keeping Whitlock in the pen, had they chose him to be the odd man out, might have saved him some time on the IL.

[moonslav59]

I agree JH is ultimately responsible. But, first and foremost, we must acknowledge he is easily the best Sox owner ever because MLB in the John Henry era has been far more competitive than back in the Sox first quarter century (1901-26). The Yankees have outspent the Sox, 2002-2024, but have 1 WS to the Sox 4.

 

I do agree John Henry cut payroll steadily after the 2019 season and with Chaim Bloom as his CBO. This especially applied to pitching. In his defense, however, he was paying a bundle for David Price after he went to the Dodgers and for Chris Sale, who spent big parts of 4 seasons (2020-2023) on the IL. I think Price and Sale convinced JH big contracts for starters were just stupid. This year so far he has 5 starters--Bello, Pivetta, Crawford, Houck, and Criswell--who are costing him $12M in salary and doing a pretty good job.

 

I can't say definitively whether JH is right or wrong on the current track, but do think he has earned the right to be wrong, at least for awhile. Right now I think the only big money player who is earning his pay is Rafael Devers. Story, Giolito, Yoshida, Sale, and Jansen are overpaid.

 

It hasn't really be a "steady" payroll cut. We had a lot of money on the books in 2019, some pretty long term. There was a massive cut with the Betts-Price trade and not replacing Porcello's money coming off the books. (Not brining Kimbrel and kelly beck for 2019 just amounted to paying the raises others got.

 

Of course, inflation make spending now look higher than it really is, comparatively, and the extensions kicked in for Sale, Nate and Bogey, but after 2020, we spent more and more- just poorly.

 

The CB Tax budget went like this:

$243M 2019

$185M 2020

$208M 2021 (one of the biggest jumps in spending in Sox history)

$236M 2022 (another one of the biggest jumps in Sox history)

$225M 2023 was the second decline year in 6 years

2024 will be the third decline year i the last 7 seasons and 2 in a row and 3 out of 5.

 

FYI, Sox spending declined for 2 years in a row, before under JH:

2007>2008>2009

It almost did from 2012>2013>2014, but for $2M more spent in 2014 than 2013.

 

[Elktonnick]

I think Henry has a strategic vision. First and foremost it is to expand the FSG portfolio. Second he believes that exploding MLB payrolls are financially unsustainable in the lomg run and are not a guarantee for success.

I believe his overall management of the Red Sox since 2019 has been totally consistent with that vision.

[Maxbialystock]

I think Henry has a strategic vision. First and foremost it is to expand the FSG portfolio. Second he believes that exploding MLB payrolls are financially unsustainable in the lomg run and are not a guarantee for success.

I believe his overall management of the Red Sox since 2019 has been totally consistent with that vision.

 

Wow. Just wow. I think you are on to something. I especially like the phrase, "exploding MLB payrolls" because I think they are ridiculous. It's not just the money they get, but the fact that it's guaranteed every single year for 10 years or more.

 

And while those salaries are going up and up and up, revenues are going down and down and down.

[Dipre]

I think Henry has a strategic vision. First and foremost it is to expand the FSG portfolio. Second he believes that exploding MLB payrolls are financially unsustainable in the lomg run and are not a guarantee for success.

I believe his overall management of the Red Sox since 2019 has been totally consistent with that vision.

 

A strategic vision without consistent execution is like trying to carve out a marble statue using TNT, and that has been Henry's problem. He has not stuck to the strategic planning he has devised himself. He has wanted to built from within, spend, build the farm, trade from the farm, and control spending all at the same time. Not how it works.

[mvp 78]

A strategic vision without consistent execution is like trying to carve out a marble statue using TNT, and that has been Henry's problem. He has not stuck to the strategic planning he has devised himself. He has wanted to built from within, spend, build the farm, trade from the farm, and control spending all at the same time. Not how it works.

 

There is no true north with this guy. He's the reason the Sox have been scattershot ever since 2004 (post WS selloff of players, build up of homegrown players, feeding the monster, dumping players, threading the needle for 2013, building up homegrown players again, buying and trading to get 2018 team, overextending after 2018, dumping of all veteran players, build up of homegrown players yet again).

[Elktonnick]

It is working for Henry.

[moonslav59]

There is no true north with this guy. He's the reason the Sox have been scattershot ever since 2004 (post WS selloff of players, build up of homegrown players, feeding the monster, dumping players, threading the needle for 2013, building up homegrown players again, buying and trading to get 2018 team, overextending after 2018, dumping of all veteran players, build up of homegrown players yet again).

 

From when I started following the Sox, in the early 70's to 2003, we were scattershot from sucking to also-rans. Now we go from sucking to rings to sucking, sometimes all in 3 years.

 

I know which one I prefer.

[jad]

Wow. Just wow. I think you are on to something. I especially like the phrase, "exploding MLB payrolls" because I think they are ridiculous. It's not just the money they get, but the fact that it's guaranteed every single year for 10 years or more.

 

And while those salaries are going up and up and up, revenues are going down and down and down.

 

Salaries are never ridiculous if there are employers willing to pay them. And if the owners were losing money, they would SURELY open the books to prove it, something they are not willing to do.

[Randy Red Sox]

I agree JH is ultimately responsible. But, first and foremost, we must acknowledge he is easily the best Sox owner ever because MLB in the John Henry era has been far more competitive than back in the Sox first quarter century (1901-26). The Yankees have outspent the Sox, 2002-2024, but have 1 WS to the Sox 4.

 

I do agree John Henry cut payroll steadily after the 2019 season and with Chaim Bloom as his CBO. This especially applied to pitching. In his defense, however, he was paying a bundle for David Price after he went to the Dodgers and for Chris Sale, who spent big parts of 4 seasons (2020-2023) on the IL. I think Price and Sale convinced JH big contracts for starters were just stupid. This year so far he has 5 starters--Bello, Pivetta, Crawford, Houck, and Criswell--who are costing him $12M in salary and doing a pretty good job.

 

I can't say definitively whether JH is right or wrong on the current track, but do think he has earned the right to be wrong, at least for awhile. Right now I think the only big money player who is earning his pay is Rafael Devers. Story, Giolito, Yoshida, Sale, and Jansen are overpaid.

 

it has been 3 last place finishes in the past 4 years and this season so far doesn't look that much better. How long is it ok to be wrong?

[moonslav59]

it has been 3 last place finishes in the past 4 years and this season so far doesn't look that much better. How long is it ok to be wrong?

 

As soon as it takes.

 

[Elktonnick]

it has been 3 last place finishes in the past 4 years and this season so far doesn't look that much better. How long is it ok to be wrong?

Wrong? You are assuming John Henry has the same goals as does the Red Sox fan base. He clearly does not. I do not believe he thinks he has charted the "wrong" course or approach. This is what he wanted. He may change personnel such as Bloom to throw fans a scapegoat and a bone but I see him continuing to operate with a smaller payroll than he had in years past. It is working for him.

[Maxbialystock]

As soon as it takes.

 

 

I actually live for the current season, whatever it is, and this one fascinates me despite the fielding and hitting issues. I'm astounded--still--with the pitching, especially the rotation. And tonight Houck went 7 scoreless innings--with nasty stuff--when the Sox needed it. Meanwhile the lineup--the defense and the hitting--was pretty doggone good.

At the Trop, no less.

 

A sweep here is feasible and would be so sweet.

[moonslav59]

Wrong? You are assuming John Henry has the same goals as does the Red Sox fan base. He clearly does not. I do not believe he thinks he has charted the "wrong" course or approach. This is what he wanted. He may change personnel such as Bloom to throw fans a scapegoat and a bone but I see him continuing to operate with a smaller payroll than he had in years past. It is working for him.

 

Other than 2020 and this year, it has not been a "smaller payroll."

 

Other teams blew bye us like maniacs. Is that working for all of them?

 

(I'm not defending the guy, but he has spent like no other Sox owner. Count inflation and he still blows the old guard away. I think he should and needs to spend more to get us back in the game. I have no idea if he will or won't.)

[mvp 78]

@BostonDotCom

Sam Kennedy admits that 2024 Red Sox have ‘under-performed’

 

No, with the product you allowed to be put on the field, this is where we expected them to be. Ownership always pointing fingers at everyone else.

[notin]

@BostonDotCom

Sam Kennedy admits that 2024 Red Sox have ‘under-performed’

 

No, with the product you allowed to be put on the field, this is where we expected them to be. Ownership always pointing fingers at everyone else.

 

I actually thought most people viewed this team as “over performing”…

[mvp 78]

I actually thought most people viewed this team as “over performing”…

 

Not ownership! They apparently thought this team as created was playoff material??? I don't get it.

[mvp 78]

Before the season, we predicted anywhere from 70 to 82 wins. Nobody on here predicted high except in jest. Vegas had them at 77.5 wins.

 

This team is not underachieving.

[moonslav59]

Not ownership! They apparently thought this team as created was playoff material??? I don't get it.

 

They are delusional or liars. Neither choice is flattering.

[moonslav59]

Before the season, we predicted anywhere from 70 to 82 wins. Nobody on here predicted high except in jest. Vegas had them at 77.5 wins.

 

This team is not underachieving.

 

I guess you could look at ruin differential, and say we should have more wins, so are underperforming, in that sense.

[notin]

Before the season, we predicted anywhere from 70 to 82 wins. Nobody on here predicted high except in jest. Vegas had them at 77.5 wins.

 

This team is not underachieving.

 

 

Agreed. Some might argue over-achieving. Some say they’re just achieving. Only Kennedy and his office mates think they are under-achieving…