Bloom fired

[Bellhorn04]

The big crime Dombrowski made (in retrospect) was not adding players in 2018/19 offseason - but clearly ownership did not have an appetite for that. The big drivers of the dropoff in 2019 were dropoffs by Sale and Porcello - and the fickle realities of middle relief pitching on Earth.

 

And let's face it, Cora did push his starters in the 2018 postseason with the relief stints. That did have a lingering effect, it seems. Look at what happened to Keith Foulke after Francona rode him like a rented mule in the 2004 ALCS.

 

Then you had other bummers like World Series MVP Steve Pearce have his career come to a crashing halt. It was the classic year-after-championship meltdown. There are reasons it's so hard to win back-to-back World Series.

[sk7326]

And let's face it, Cora did push his starters in the 2018 postseason with the relief stints. That did have a lingering effect, it seems. Look at what happened to Keith Foulke after Francona rode him like a rented mule in the 2004 ALCS.

 

Then you had other bummers like World Series MVP Steve Pearce have his career come to a crashing halt. It was the classic year-after-championship meltdown. There are reasons it's so hard to win back-to-back World Series.

 

Of course. And no regrets there. You have a title to win - this is what you do.

 

Ultimately - as a fan, I wanted the Sox to take that core from the 2018 team and try to maximize it ... and ownership instead quit on it after a fairly predictable dropoff. It's not as crass as the Marlins sell off in 1997 of course - but it's some of the same vibes.

Edited September 16, 2023 by sk7326

[sk7326]

Law on the firing

 

https://theathletic.com/4864258/2023/09/15/boston-red-sox-front-office-future/

 

The farm system has taken a sharp turn for the better this year, with a strong draft this July, a big step forward for last year’s second-round pick Roman Anthony, and some smaller breakouts or returns to form from other position players in the system. However, they didn’t have any pitchers in the system who projected as more than fifth starters in the majors back when I ranked their prospects in February, and that’s still true.

 

It seems like a clear strategy choice from the top, as they took just one pitcher in the top three rounds with Bloom overseeing baseball ops and didn’t give any pitchers more than $600,000 as bonuses, while in international free agency, they followed the same philosophy, with $450,000 the most they gave any pitcher in the past three classes. Pitchers are riskier as a class, of course, with elbow injury rates at or near all-time highs, but you can’t just send an Iron Mike out there and hope for the best.

 

But that’s it for big free agents, which contradicts the way that John Henry & Co. have run the Red Sox since they first acquired the team twenty years ago. There are only two players on Boston’s roster this year who were signed as free agents to deals over two years, Yoshida and Story. They haven’t swum in the deep end of the free agent pool since Bloom got the job, and have been more keen to shed salary — trading Mookie Betts rather than signing him to an extension, which I would have to say has not worked out in Boston’s favor — than to maintain a payroll commensurate with their revenues or their own spending history. Blaming Bloom or O’Halloran for this very well-off ownership group’s sudden asceticism seems to miss the point. This Red Sox team could have been a lot better if they’d just gone out and spent some money on some pitching.

...

They could look to someone like James Click, who was once Bloom’s colleague in Tampa, but who in the interim was the GM of the Astros and led them to a World Series win just a year ago. Or they could try to recycle a famous name to get headlines and win the offseason, so to speak, which might work out if it also meant loosening the purse strings so they can go get some starting pitching, but would also imply to me that they’re less serious about long-term contention, which is where this team sat for the Theo Epstein era and quite a few years beyond.

 

They’re the Boston Bleeping Red Sox, and it’s time they start acting like it again.

[Bellhorn04]

Law on the firing

 

https://theathletic.com/4864258/2023/09/15/boston-red-sox-front-office-future/

 

That was a good piece by him.

[notin]

And let's face it, Cora did push his starters in the 2018 postseason with the relief stints. That did have a lingering effect, it seems. Look at what happened to Keith Foulke after Francona rode him like a rented mule in the 2004 ALCS.

 

Then you had other bummers like World Series MVP Steve Pearce have his career come to a crashing halt. It was the classic year-after-championship meltdown. There are reasons it's so hard to win back-to-back World Series.

 

A crashing halt? Like he was just 28 years old?

 

Pearce was 36 years old and kind of mediocre, to be kind. He played for 13 MLB seasons and only once topped 100 games played, which is a ridiculous accomplishment for a non-pitcher - to last that long while not being good enough to start…

[a700hitter]

You would have to go back a long way to find a Red Sox GM with a worse tenure than Bloom.

[sk7326]

You would have to go back a long way to find a Red Sox GM with a worse tenure than Bloom.

 

you can probably argue that Bloom was dealt the worst hand an incoming GM has had since Dick O'Connell.

[Maxbialystock]

And let's face it, Cora did push his starters in the 2018 postseason with the relief stints. That did have a lingering effect, it seems. Look at what happened to Keith Foulke after Francona rode him like a rented mule in the 2004 ALCS.

 

Then you had other bummers like World Series MVP Steve Pearce have his career come to a crashing halt. It was the classic year-after-championship meltdown. There are reasons it's so hard to win back-to-back World Series.

 

I know this topic was much discussed in 2019--that the poor old rotation had been abused in the 2018 season and postseason, but I think it's just bunk. No starter was overworked in the 2018 season or postseason. Lester and Lackey threw more postseason innings in 2013 than Price and Sale did in 2018. They also pitched more innings in the 2013 regular season than Price and Sale in 2018.

 

However, because Cora apparently believed those guys had been overworked in 2018, he had them pitch less than usual in spring training, which I think was the real cause of their lousy 2019 seasons.

 

But I have one big caveat to the above. We now know that both Price and Sale were basically worthless after 2018. Price's WAR in 2018 was 4.4, but in the next 3 seasons it was 1.8, .5, and .7. Sale's WAR in 2018 was a terrific 6.9, but in the next 5 seasons it has been (note the word choice) 2.3, 0, 1.0, 0, and 0.

 

Those WAR numbers, combined with what the Sox paid for them, poisoned John Henry's belief in simply buying pitching. So he fired DD, hired CB, and gave him guidance--probably through his brain trust--on what he could and could not do in terms of buying/paying players. Mookie became unaffordable. So did any long term pitcher contracts, which led directly to the rotation mess the Sox have today.

[moonslav59]

Here's what's a little ironic, though. These non-moves that Bloom is now being ripped for were future-oriented moves rather than compete now moves.

 

If the Sox front office is trying to tell us they think Bloom was paying too much attention to the present by not making these moves, that would indicate they are approximately the most two-faced f***ers on the planet.

 

They are all over the map on finding things to throw blame on Bloom and not themselves.

 

There is a sizeable brigade on this board that feels strongly that Bloom hoarded prospects and made building for the future his top priority, at the expense of the here and now current ML team.

 

I seem to recall, at most trade deadlines, most here wanted us to be buyers not sellers. He usually played it halfway or chose neither. Doing that, opened him up for being ripped from both sides: The here and now bunch and the long term outlook bunch.

 

I will add, playing it halfway is the worst choice, IMO..

[moonslav59]

Just my opinion, but I think when Average Fan says he hated the Mookie trade, it's shorthand for hating that they let him go.

 

Agree, but linking it to fully blaming Bloom is where the shorthand goes off the rails, IMO.

[moonslav59]

There will be splash, I guarantee it. They've already set the tone for that with the "Our fans deserve better" message. If they don't follow up on that, the Nation will be more pissed than ever, and there will be no doubt who they're most pissed at.

 

Didn't they use those words after 2022?

[moonslav59]

DD's comments about it were pretty classy, I thought. He said he was hurt because JH didn't say a word to him about why he was gone. DD said about 3 sentences about it, said he didn't want to say any more about it and that was that.

 

If a GM wants to keep working as a GM, they pretty much have to shut up and take the abuse.

 

It's weird how once they retire, you don't see them returning the abuse at those who canned them and then threw them under the bus.

 

(Maybe they do, and I just miss it.)

 

The sick part about the whole process is that it always starts with flowery language about what a great job so and so did, and how "professional" he was, while at the same moment, spreading out your minions feeding the press all the crap we are reading, now.

Edited September 16, 2023 by moonslav59

[moonslav59]

But then we come back to the question of whether DD didn't just do exactly what he thought he was hired to do. Make some big moves and win a championship. Done and done.

 

High-priced pitchers are riskier than ever. Now someone is going to have to take that risk again.

 

Why not just try a GM who has a balanced approach?

[jad]

I know this topic was much discussed in 2019--that the poor old rotation had been abused in the 2018 season and postseason, but I think it's just bunk. No starter was overworked in the 2018 season or postseason. Lester and Lackey threw more postseason innings in 2013 than Price and Sale did in 2018. They also pitched more innings in the 2013 regular season than Price and Sale in 2018.

 

However, because Cora apparently believed those guys had been overworked in 2018, he had them pitch less than usual in spring training, which I think was the real cause of their lousy 2019 seasons.

 

But I have one big caveat to the above. We now know that both Price and Sale were basically worthless after 2018. Price's WAR in 2018 was 4.4, but in the next 3 seasons it was 1.8, .5, and .7. Sale's WAR in 2018 was a terrific 6.9, but in the next 5 seasons it has been (note the word choice) 2.3, 0, 1.0, 0, and 0.

 

Those WAR numbers, combined with what the Sox paid for them, poisoned John Henry's belief in simply buying pitching. So he fired DD, hired CB, and gave him guidance--probably through his brain trust--on what he could and could not do in terms of buying/paying players. Mookie became unaffordable. So did any long term pitcher contracts, which led directly to the rotation mess the Sox have today.

 

There is no way Mookie was 'unaffordable', nor was Bogaerts, JT, nor anyone else. It's just that JH/Bloom did not want to pay them, thinking, apparently, they could be replaced with, say, .180 hitters for a mere $200 million.

[notin]

There is no way Mookie was 'unaffordable', nor was Bogaerts, JT, nor anyone else. It's just that JH/Bloom did not want to pay them, thinking, apparently, they could be replaced with, say, .180 hitters for a mere $200 million.

 

You can’t argue Mookie was a generational talent and a Hall of Famer and then also argue leaving him unextended for 5 years was acceptable. You’re doing just that…

[Maxbialystock]

You would have to go back a long way to find a Red Sox GM with a worse tenure than Bloom.

 

A fair point. However, his tenure was based on not doing what every other GM/CBO for the Sox has been able to do during the John Henry era and probably the last 40 years: spend like a drunken sailor to bring in talent, especially pitching talent.

[moonslav59]

In another thread I pointed out how in Bloom's four-year Reign of Error the Red Sox led the MLB in Es.

 

Cora's all-timers in 2018 had the 3rd-fewest.

 

How does a team suddenly go from really good to terrible defense -- unless there are different players on the rosters assembled by a new CBO..

 

Did Bloom "assemble" Casas, Duran, Devers.

 

Bloom did add some stinkers, but some were decent fielders playing out of position (Kike at SS, Duvall in CF...)

 

I'm not defending Bloom: our D sucks, and he was the guy who could have done something about it, and choce to improve the pen and offense, instead of the rotation and defense.

[a700hitter]

A fair point. However, his tenure was based on not doing what every other GM/CBO for the Sox has been able to do during the John Henry era and probably the last 40 years: spend like a drunken sailor to bring in talent, especially pitching talent.

That is a rationalization.

[moonslav59]

He was fired for doing exactly what ownership asked him to do. That was even more true in Detroit. I mean, Detroit has struggled when they got old - but they made the World Series, an ALCS and were relevant and competitive to some degree or another.

 

The big crime Dombrowski made (in retrospect) was not adding players in 2018/19 offseason - but clearly ownership did not have an appetite for that. The big drivers of the dropoff in 2019 were dropoffs by Sale and Porcello - and the fickle realities of middle relief pitching on Earth.

 

The did spend a lot extending Sale, Bogey and Nate, so the spending really dropped off after 2019 not before it. Yes, we lost Kimbrell and Kelly, but the raises to the vets is what happens when you have a core of winning players for 3 years straight.

 

Eventually, you reach a point, where you can't pay them all. The Astros don't pay them all, but they kept their pipeline going.

 

It's about having a balanced approach. We should try it sometime.

[notin]

Why not just try a GM who has a balanced approach?

 

They need me.

 

My plan is simple. Extend Verdugo. Trade for Juan Soto. (Yorke plus Yoshida is a massive overpay on BTV).

 

Then tackle pitching. 1SP free agent (Gray?). 1RP free agent ( No names yet). Explore small market teams for arb-eligible pitchers via trade.

 

And Matt Chapman. Almost forgot. Unless negotiations get all Nimmo-y…

Edited September 16, 2023 by notin

[moonslav59]

Law on the firing

 

https://theathletic.com/4864258/2023/09/15/boston-red-sox-front-office-future/

 

Thanks for this. I'm not a big fan of Law, who seems to short-change the Sox a bit, but he was spot on, here.

[moonslav59]

you can probably argue that Bloom was dealt the worst hand an incoming GM has had since Dick O'Connell.

 

The other argument could be that he left a much better foundation than he started with: 26 man, 40 man, farm and budget.

[Old Red]

The other argument could be that he left a much better foundation than he started with: 26 man, 40 man, farm and budget.

 

But yet he couldn’t field a WINNING team, and get into the postseason, which is what I’ve been saying, Cora said, and Sam said, and which was, and is most important.

[notin]

The other argument could be that he left a much better foundation than he started with: 26 man, 40 man, farm and budget.

 

Of course I will say it before anyone else - you can’t live in a foundation…

[notin]

But yet he couldn’t field a WINNING team, and get into the postseason, which is what I’ve been saying, Cora said, and Sam said, and which was, and is most important.

 

Living abroad in 2021?

[Old Red]

Of course I will say it before anyone else - you can’t live in a foundation…

 

You could, but it wouldn’t be very enjoyable just like the Red Sox finishing out of the postseason once again.

[notin]

You could, but it wouldn’t be very enjoyable just like the Red Sox finishing out of the postseason once again.

 

Don’t confuse living with surviving…

[Old Red]

Living abroad in 2021?

 

They could have won it all in 2021, and it still wouldn’t justify 2022, and 2023. It’s like saying Bloom had an overall winning record in his 4 years on the job, but 3 of them will most likely be losing last place in the div finishes. Good day, good night, and good bye.

[moonslav59]

I know this topic was much discussed in 2019--that the poor old rotation had been abused in the 2018 season and postseason, but I think it's just bunk. No starter was overworked in the 2018 season or postseason. Lester and Lackey threw more postseason innings in 2013 than Price and Sale did in 2018. They also pitched more innings in the 2013 regular season than Price and Sale in 2018.

 

However, because Cora apparently believed those guys had been overworked in 2018, he had them pitch less than usual in spring training, which I think was the real cause of their lousy 2019 seasons.

 

But I have one big caveat to the above. We now know that both Price and Sale were basically worthless after 2018. Price's WAR in 2018 was 4.4, but in the next 3 seasons it was 1.8, .5, and .7. Sale's WAR in 2018 was a terrific 6.9, but in the next 5 seasons it has been (note the word choice) 2.3, 0, 1.0, 0, and 0.

 

Those WAR numbers, combined with what the Sox paid for them, poisoned John Henry's belief in simply buying pitching. So he fired DD, hired CB, and gave him guidance--probably through his brain trust--on what he could and could not do in terms of buying/paying players. Mookie became unaffordable. So did any long term pitcher contracts, which led directly to the rotation mess the Sox have today.

 

Well said, and Price and Sale were not the only two who were never the same.

 

Many other vets went on to decline or get hurt, or both over the next 4-5 years- some not right away.

 

Porcello was not brought back or replaced. Some poo-poo'd his value, but he sure at innings, and we all know how we could have used that over the last 2-3 years.

 

We did not replace Kimbrell and Kelly until 2023.

 

ERod missed 2020, and was gone after 2021.

 

Nate had one great full season after 2018, and it's no coincidence that was the one year we made the playoffs after 2018.

 

The pen has been constructed with yarn and patches since 2018. This is the first year we even tried to make it better.

 

On the O side, many players took longer to show decline, or had some up and down seasons along the way, but losing Betts right off the bat, to start Bloom's era, is a pretty big punch in the gut to an organization.

 

Beni was 23 when he hit .830. He never came close, afterwards, even on other teams. He's at .695, this year at age 28.

 

JD was a great addition to the Sox- no doubt- no disrespect, but players get older. While he aged better than most, he did drop off, some.

'18-'19: 1306 PAs

.317 79 235 (per 162: .317 43 129)

'20-'22: 1467 PAs

.269 51 188 (per 162: .269 24 89)

 

Bogey's D improved, but his O production dropped:

'18-'19: 1278 PAs

.300 56 2210 (31 HRs and 123 RBI per 162 gms)

'20-'22:1459 PAs

.301 49 180 (23 HRs and 83 RBI per 162)

 

JBJ was still a big plus on D and had an OK .728 OPS fromm '18-'19

He had a better 2020 season, but was gone- only to return a shell of himself.

 

Devers has been pretty steady.

 

The role players at starters who were not studs were not really replaced in kind, either: Moreland (.758 in '18), Nunez (.677), Holt (.774), Pearce (.901) and others.

 

People see that 2018 for what it was: a great team, but some assumed that was the team Bloom essentially inherited, but it was not. Even the players with the same names were mostly not the same guys.

 

[moonslav59]

That is a rationalization.

 

based is fact.