Bloom fired

[sk7326]

You guys have worse logic than my middle school students.

 

I wanted us to offer Betts $400M/14, and I'd like to still see him in a Sox uniform. Just because I don't think that trade was Bloom's choice doesn't make me his "fan." I rooted for him to do well, unlike some here.

 

Beni is a shell of his old self.

 

Bogey has not produced well in 3 years.

 

JD had a one year resurgence, but has missed some time. JT was better.

 

Vaz? Really?

 

You crack me up!

 

Bogaerts has been a 5-6 win player each of the last 3 seasons.

 

The thing with Bogaerts is that he has been a really good player - just in a totally different way than scouts expected!

[Jasonbay44]

Zero chance it’s true.

 

Why would any GM want Sale at full price? Most pitchers making half as much don’t get traded to a team that takes on the full contract. I mean, the only reason to trade for a Sale at all last year would have been to add him while Boston paid the bill.

 

And to offer to take the full contract AFTER an injury? No f***ing way. There’s just no GM other that stupid…

 

You say that, but there is plenty of dumb ass teams out there. There is a team out there that traded Mookie Betts in his prime.

[Fan_since_Boggs]

With so much money in baseball, it is possible that some team was willing to take on Sale's contract and take on the risk he would return to form. I doubt the Red Sox could have obtained a quality prospect for Sale, but it would have been enough to get Sale off payroll. I thought the Red Sox would give Bloom one more year. But dumping him now isn't outrageous. He did a nice job with the farm system and made a nice trade in acquiring Abreu from the Astros, but he made some bad deals as well (the Betts return, acquiring Bradley Jr) and he sucked at the trade deadlines, getting nothing for players like Eavoldi, Paxton, Bogaerts. The Red Sox need to upgrade the starting rotation in a significant way in the offseason and they obviously concluded that Bloom was not the right man for the job. They might be correct about that.

[Fan_since_Boggs]

They were spoiled by Theo, a guy who could build and win at the same time. Those guys are rare now

 

Theo made mistakes on a pretty regular basis. The Crawford contract is on him, he overpaid for Renteria, Lugo, Dice-K. He didn't exactly build a sustainable winner in Chicago. Instead, he won one championship in Chicago after spending 4 years (or so) tanking. The Jason Heyward contract is on him as well.

 

Like Cashman, Theo has had the advantage of having massive resources behind him. Would Theo or Cashman ever win a championship with the Rays or A's, much smaller payrolls? Probably not.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Fan_since_Boggs

[Fan_since_Boggs]

Some managers get accused of hooking their pitchers too early. Henry is Captain Hook when it comes to CBO's. 3 guys in a row hooked after the 4th inning.

 

Yeah he has a little George Steinbrenner in him, doesn't tolerate too many down years before he starts looking for a new person. It is hard to argue with the results, however, the most successful team in the 21st Century with 4 championships.

[Hugh2]

Yeah he has a little George Steinbrenner in him, doesn't tolerate too many down years before he starts looking for a new person. It is hard to argue with the results, however, the most successful team in the 21st Century with 4 championships.

 

That may come to an end if no one wants to work for him. As far as I’m concerned John Henry is on the clock now.

 

You would think that if all things were equal a candidate would LOVE to come to Boston to fill the position.

 

- An owner who consistently allows his GM to be a top 5-7 spender in baseball.

 

- Young core starting to develop.

 

- a top farm system.

 

- luxury tax just reset, primed to spend.

 

 

Whoever comes here will be walking into a good situation. However, not as good as Dave Dombroski did. The core he inherited was a little further along in its development. The future team you can imagine here is mixed between breaking into the bigs and not quite there yet.

 

Bello/Casas/Wong/Duran/Devers/Mayer/Teel/

Rafaela/Anthony/Wilkeman.

 

Since there’s bust risk in some of those guys there’s obviously more risk there, but if given several years a potential GM/CBO/DBO/(whatever Henry wants to call it this time) should be excited.

 

I praised Henry yesterday. Despite being a semi Bloom apologists I viewed the move as a needed change of direction for the organization.

 

But what if it’s not???

 

What if Henry is the same guy, and wants someone to come in and replace Bloom and keep doing what Bloom was doing? Inching his way forward, build up the farm and hoarding prospects while never going big on a major FA acquisition or trade? Waiting for the day they have enough young superstars on their team to be the Braves. And firing Bloom was just his scapegoat to appease fans for the last 4 years? And the next guy is just a Bloom replicate who continues Henry’s vision? I don’t believe this, but I’m not 100% confident it’s not the case either.

 

Who replaces Bloom, and how they operate this offseason will answer those questions for us.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Hugh2

[Hugh2]

Theo made mistakes on a pretty regular basis. The Crawford contract is on him, he overpaid for Renteria, Lugo, Dice-K. He didn't exactly build a sustainable winner in Chicago. Instead, he won one championship in Chicago after spending 4 years (or so) tanking. The Jason Heyward contract is on him as well.

 

Like Cashman, Theo has had the advantage of having massive resources behind him. Would Theo or Cashman ever win a championship with the Rays or A's, much smaller payrolls? Probably not.

 

Good points. To be fair it doesn’t look like anyone else can win a championship with the Rays or A’s as well. Some GMs are better fits for different organizations. While Theo had his blunders, all GMs do, he still built winners in two different towns and that’s fairly impressive. But he wasn’t afraid to go out and make the moves which is what you need to do in a big market. When you do that you fail sometimes.

 

Bloom is a small market guy. I think he’d be a perfect fit for the Angels. They need a few years to rebuild their farm. Imagine being the Angels? It would be like us…..except our farm system would be one of the worse instead of one of the best. Not a tough pill to swallow if the big league club is winning. But the Angels suck now and are losing Ohtani.

[moonslav59]

Bogey is 20th in WAR since 2021

He is doing just fine. A lot better than Story.

 

No doubt, but that doesn't change the fact that he has not been the 2018 Bogey for 3 years, and he's not getting any younger.

 

I find it kind of ironic that posters who have thought the Sox have sucked for 4 years wanted Bloom to keep all the players that were part of those teams.

 

Vaz and Beni are shells of themselves- no disrespect intended.

 

JT was a great guy for replacing JD.

 

Losing Bogey hurt like hell, as did losing Nate, but they took mega deals, elsewhere.

 

Time to move on.

[moonslav59]

That may come to an end if no one wants to work for him. As far as I’m concerned John Henry is on the clock now.

 

You would think that if all things were equal a candidate would LOVE to come to Boston to fill the position.

 

- An owner who consistently allows his GM to be a top 5-7 spender in baseball.

 

- Young core starting to develop.

 

- a top farm system.

 

- luxury tax just reset, primed to spend.

 

 

Whoever comes here will be walking into a good situation. However, not as good as Dave Dombroski did. The core he inherited was a little further along in its development. The future team you can imagine here is mixed between breaking into the bigs and not quite there yet.

 

Bello/Casas/Wong/Duran/Devers/Mayer/Teel/

Rafaela/Anthony/Wilkeman.

 

Since there’s bust risk in some of those guys there’s obviously more risk there, but if given several years a potential GM/CBO/DBO/(whatever Henry wants to call it this time) should be excited.

 

I praised Henry yesterday. Despite being a semi Bloom apologists I viewed the move as a needed change of direction for the organization.

 

But what if it’s not???

 

What if Henry is the same guy, and wants someone to come in and replace Bloom and keep doing what Bloom was doing? Inching his way forward, build up the farm and hoarding prospects while never going big on a major FA acquisition or trade? Waiting for the day they have enough young superstars on their team to be the Braves. And firing Bloom was just his scapegoat to appease fans for the last 4 years? And the next guy is just a Bloom replicate who continues Henry’s vision? I don’t believe this, but I’m not 100% confident it’s not the case either.

 

Who replaces Bloom, and how they operate this offseason will answer those questions for us.

 

Well put.

 

If the parameters don't change, I'm not sure any GM can work miracles.

[Hugh2]

Well put.

 

If the parameters don't change, I'm not sure any GM can work miracles.

 

I think even Blooms biggest haters would say it sounds fishy that all this negative stuff about Bloom comes out right now, only right now, all of it!!! a waterfall of negative stories right as he's fired. Smells like a smear campaign, I'm sure some of it even if just a little is true, but he was still their boy and they stuck with him for 4 years. Problems with this group may have run a lot deeper than just Bloom so, I think it's fair to not let John Henry off the hook.

 

I'm taking back my praise from yesterday. John Henry and ownership can get credit when they turn this team around. This is a results-oriented business.

[notin]

You say that, but there is plenty of dumb ass teams out there. There is a team out there that traded Mookie Betts in his prime.

 

Future Hall of Famers get traded away often, usually for financial reasons. Exactly why would a team be dealing FOR Sale and his full contract?

[notin]

With so much money in baseball, it is possible that some team was willing to take on Sale's contract and take on the risk he would return to form. I doubt the Red Sox could have obtained a quality prospect for Sale, but it would have been enough to get Sale off payroll. I thought the Red Sox would give Bloom one more year. But dumping him now isn't outrageous. He did a nice job with the farm system and made a nice trade in acquiring Abreu from the Astros, but he made some bad deals as well (the Betts return, acquiring Bradley Jr) and he sucked at the trade deadlines, getting nothing for players like Eavoldi, Paxton, Bogaerts. The Red Sox need to upgrade the starting rotation in a significant way in the offseason and they obviously concluded that Bloom was not the right man for the job. They might be correct about that.

 

Trading for Sale to take a chance on him isn’t the same as trading for Sale and taking his full contract.

 

Not to mention the source being cited so far for this rumor is well beyond questionable…

[Hugh2]

Trading for Sale to take a chance on him isn’t the same as trading for Sale and taking his full contract.

 

Not to mention the source being cited so far for this rumor is well beyond questionable…

 

The timing is obviously questionable. If this was true it would have came out when it happened.

 

Unless it's true and was just leaked. So maybe it's not true, maybe it's but the lesson in that last sentence is THIS WAS OBVIOUSLY LEAKED. True or false the spin machine is in full effect in Boston.

[Bellhorn04]

No doubt, but that doesn't change the fact that he has not been the 2018 Bogey for 3 years, and he's not getting any younger.

 

That's not a fact, though.

 

2018 fWAR 4.4

2022 fWAR 6.0

[Bellhorn04]

The timing is obviously questionable. If this was true it would have came out when it happened.

 

Unless it's true and was just leaked. So maybe it's not true, maybe it's but the lesson in that last sentence is THIS WAS OBVIOUSLY LEAKED. True or false the spin machine is in full effect in Boston.

 

Henry and Werner have been excellent owners. They've also been miserable pricks. You can be both.

 

Bloom knew what he was getting into, though, or he should have.

[Hugh2]

That's not a fact, though.

 

2018 fWAR 4.4

2022 fWAR 6.0

 

Like all things, time will judge all. I would be concerned with his offensive decline this year, but he could bounce back next year and be fine. I always like Xander, I hope nothing but the best for him.

[moonslav59]

Henry and Werner have been excellent owners. They've also been miserable pricks. You can be both.

 

Bloom knew what he was getting into, though, or he should have.

 

Good points.

 

I do think the comments about Bloom trading Betts was a major throwing him under the bus move.

 

It had to be an organizational choice made.

[Bellhorn04]

A good piece by Kiley McDaniel at ESPN on the firing

 

"Win titles or pack your bags" isn't quite right, though, since they canned 3 guys who won 4 titles.

[moonslav59]

That's not a fact, though.

 

2018 fWAR 4.4

2022 fWAR 6.0

 

Good point. His D did improve, and "production" can come in many forms.

 

His run generating value surely did decline and that continued into 2023.

 

It was a different Bogey, but necessarily a worse one.

 

bWAR has him almost identical from 2018-2019 (12.2) as 2021-2022 (10.9).

 

He's on pace for about a 3.8 bWAR, this year in what should be more games played than 2021 or 2022. He's on pace for a 3.7 fWAR, this year.

 

[Bellhorn04]

Somebody should ask John Henry point blank why, if the Sox were so committed to winning this year, they dropped all the f**king way to the middle of the pack in payroll for the first time in his ownership?

[mvp 78]

The ORGANIZATION has made many mistakes the past 5 years.

 

Sale extension - DD

Not extending Mookie - Ownership

Going over the CBT in '22 and lack of willing to trade players that were on their way out - Bloom

 

There is plenty of blame to go around. My only hope is that the new CBO and/or GM can be a steadying force and keep the farm trending in the right direction but also make appropriate moves regarding the MLB club rather than outright ignoring it.

[mvp 78]

Somebody should ask John Henry point blank why, if the Sox were so committed to winning this year, they dropped all the f**king way to the middle of the pack in payroll for the first time in his ownership?

 

They wanted to stay under the CBT. I think they'll end up like 5M under. What's an additional 5M going to do?

 

The problem was going over last season. Chaim probably should have been fired for that blunder.

[moonslav59]

The ORGANIZATION has made many mistakes the past 5 years.

 

Sale extension - DD

Not extending Mookie - Ownership

Going over the CBT in '22 and lack of willing to trade players that were on their way out - Bloom

 

There is plenty of blame to go around. My only hope is that the new CBO and/or GM can be a steadying force and keep the farm trending in the right direction but also make appropriate moves regarding the MLB club rather than outright ignoring it.

 

Pretty much all of it in a nutshell.

[mvp 78]

Also, are Eddie Romero and Alex Cora being considered as internal candidates for the CBO/GM positions?

[moonslav59]

Somebody should ask John Henry point blank why, if the Sox were so committed to winning this year, they dropped all the f**king way to the middle of the pack in payroll for the first time in his ownership?

 

I doubt he'd answer that question directly.

 

(Some, here, seem to think it was Bloom's choice to not spend big.)

[moonslav59]

Also, are Eddie Romero and Alex Cora being considered as internal candidates for the CBO/GM positions?

 

That would be interesting.

 

If you had to make the call, on the spot, right now: who is our next CBO/GM?

[Hugh2]

Good points.

 

I do think the comments about Bloom trading Betts was a major throwing him under the bus move.

 

It had to be an organizational choice made.

 

I missed some of the interview, did they seriously try to blame Bloom for trading Betts?

[Bellhorn04]

They wanted to stay under the CBT. I think they'll end up like 5M under. What's an additional 5M going to do?

 

But if they really wanted seriously to contend this year, why did they also want to stay under the CBT?

 

I think they're full of s***, that's all...

[Hugh2]

Also, are Eddie Romero and Alex Cora being considered as internal candidates for the CBO/GM positions?

 

I almost don't want it to be Eddie Romero, because I like Eddie Romero and if he becomes the new CBO/GM it might be a death sentence to his tenure here in Boston at some point. If they think a guy like Eddie is ready, they better be ready to commit to him long-term.

[Hugh2]

Started listening to this podcast.

 

Great analysis of Bloom, future and past and the front office.

 

http://news.soxprospects.com/2023/09/podcast-ep-294-chaim-bloom-fired.html