7/07 A's @ SOX 7:10 PM ET

[Thunder]

Again - they did win tonight. And somehow this team actually wins more often than they lose…

 

The Yankees fans that view the game like that still probably found something to complain about after German's perfect game

[FredLynn]

The Yankees fans that view the game like that still probably found something to complain about after German's perfect game

 

I couldn’t care less what the Yankees fans complain about. Right now we are in LAST PLACE, are swinging at too many balls that aren’t close to the strike zone, and look like clowns on defense. You just aren’t going to win with any consistency like that. The goal isn’t to win against crap teams and have a roughly.500 record-it’s to get into the playoffs and take it from there.

[illinoisredsox]

I couldn’t care less what the Yankees fans complain about. Right now we are in LAST PLACE, are swinging at too many balls that aren’t close to the strike zone, and look like clowns on defense. You just aren’t going to win with any consistency like that. The goal isn’t to win against crap teams and have a roughly.500 record-it’s to get into the playoffs and take it from there.

 

You totally missed Thunder’s point.

[moonslav59]

I couldn’t care less what the Yankees fans complain about. Right now we are in LAST PLACE, are swinging at too many balls that aren’t close to the strike zone, and look like clowns on defense. You just aren’t going to win with any consistency like that. The goal isn’t to win against crap teams and have a roughly.500 record-it’s to get into the playoffs and take it from there.

 

Yes, Captain Nay Nay.

[Dipre]

Red Sox are fifth in the league.with 3.95 p/pa, but only 19th on bb's. If anything, they're too passive and don't swing eniough, forcing them to swing at a pitcher's pitch.

[Thunder]

It's impossible to go 162-0 so it's not worth anybody's time to find something wrong with every win

[Bellhorn04]

Yes, Captain Nay Nay.

 

He reminds me a lot of the poster who called himself Pumpsie Green in the old BDC days.

[Thunder]

He reminds me a lot of the poster who called himself Pumpsie Green in the old BDC days.

 

What about my old friend seabeachfred? Got banned after he went on a tirade about my personal character in 2015

[Bellhorn04]

What about my old friend seabeachfred? Got banned after he went on a tirade about my personal character in 2015

 

Yes, I remember. The mods here do a great job. They only ban posters who really earn it.

[Dipre]

Yes, I remember. The mods here do a great job. They only ban posters who really earn it.

 

MADSTORK what?

[Bellhorn04]

MADSTORK what?

 

Yes, he's a troll but he's so stupid that he provides some amusement. When he started posting more recently, I did have to put him on ignore just to cut down on the nonsense entering my cranium.

[notin]

Yes, he's a troll but he's so stupid that he provides some amusement. When he started posting more recently, I did have to put him on ignore just to cut down on the nonsense entering my cranium.

 

He’s incredibly stupid? He begs to differ!!!

[Bellhorn04]

He’s incredibly stupid? He begs to differ!!!

 

Yes, lack of self-awareness is a big part of the stupid package.

[FredLynn]

You totally missed Thunder’s point.

 

Perhaps so, but then you totally missed my point. Are you happy with the defense this version of the Red Sox are playing? Now I understand that making errors is part of the game, but this team has made making errors into an art form. And as far as the lack of plate discipline goes, I watch the games and know what I see. It was much different when Schwarber was here. That guy led by example. Great eye for the plate and it rubbed off.

As I said, good teams don't look like clowns in the field nearly every game. They all make errors. Did you realize that this team is TWENTY NINTH in fielding percentage in MLB? Only the Giants are worse. My eyes are not deceiving me. The statistics bear it out. And while we won the game last night you need to be at least DECENT in the field to be relevant in the playoffs. Isn't that the goal? The goal isn't beating awful teams like the As and sometimes beating good ones. Its MAKING THE PLAYOFFS!

 

https://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/team/_/view/fielding

Edited July 8, 2023 by FredLynn

[notin]

Perhaps so, but then you totally missed my point. Are you happy with the defense this version of the Red Sox are playing? Now I understand that making errors is part of the game, but this team has made making errors into an art form. And as far as the lack of plate discipline goes, I watch the games and know what I see. It was much different when Schwarber was here. That guy led by example. Great eye for the plate and it rubbed off.

As I said, good teams don't look like clowns in the field nearly every game. They all make errors. Did you realize that this team is TWENTY NINTH in fielding percentage in MLB? Only the Giants are worse. My eyes are not deceiving me. The statistics bear it out. And while we won the game last night you need to be at least DECENT in the field to be relevant in the playoffs. Isn't that the goal? The goal isn't beating awful teams like the As and sometimes beating good ones. Its MAKING THE PLAYOFFS!

 

https://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/team/_/view/fielding

 

Fielding percentage is a useless stat.

 

The Sox struggled with Kike at SS. But he’s no longer the SS with Chang - who was posting solid defensive metrics all over the place before getting hurt - holding that role for the foreseeable future.

 

Kike is an excellent defensive 2b. Duran isn’t ideal in CF but is at least several million times better than the raw disaster he was last year. Verdugo is posting some of the best defensive metrics in to he league in RF. Wong is a flat out good defensive catcher.

 

Devers isn’t great at third, but he’s not really making money because of his glove. Casas is disappointing at 1b but he can and will improve…

[moonslav59]

Perhaps so, but then you totally missed my point. Are you happy with the defense this version of the Red Sox are playing? Now I understand that making errors is part of the game, but this team has made making errors into an art form. And as far as the lack of plate discipline goes, I watch the games and know what I see. It was much different when Schwarber was here. That guy led by example. Great eye for the plate and it rubbed off.

As I said, good teams don't look like clowns in the field nearly every game. They all make errors. Did you realize that this team is TWENTY NINTH in fielding percentage in MLB? Only the Giants are worse. My eyes are not deceiving me. The statistics bear it out. And while we won the game last night you need to be at least DECENT in the field to be relevant in the playoffs. Isn't that the goal? The goal isn't beating awful teams like the As and sometimes beating good ones. Its MAKING THE PLAYOFFS!

 

https://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/team/_/view/fielding

 

Nobody likes our D.

 

We may end up missing the playoffs because of it.

 

Some choose to focus on what's wrong with the team and nothing else. Not saying that's you, but you do tend to be hypercritical.

 

[moonslav59]

Fielding percentage is a useless stat.

 

The Sox struggled with Kike at SS. But he’s no longer the SS with Chang - who was posting solid defensive metrics all over the place before getting hurt - holding that role for the foreseeable future.

 

Kike is an excellent defensive 2b. Duran isn’t ideal in CF but is at least several million times better than the raw disaster he was last year. Verdugo is posting some of the best defensive metrics in to he league in RF. Wong is a flat out good defensive catcher.

 

Devers isn’t great at third, but he’s not really making money because of his glove. Casas is disappointing at 1b but he can and will improve…

 

Story's return might help the D, too, but not by much, if he just replaces Chang at SS. Chang at SS and Story at 2B would greatly improve our MI defense.

 

I do think Kike is a better 2B defender than Arroyo and EValdez.

[Thunder]

Perhaps so, but then you totally missed my point. Are you happy with the defense this version of the Red Sox are playing? Now I understand that making errors is part of the game, but this team has made making errors into an art form. And as far as the lack of plate discipline goes, I watch the games and know what I see. It was much different when Schwarber was here. That guy led by example. Great eye for the plate and it rubbed off.

As I said, good teams don't look like clowns in the field nearly every game. They all make errors. Did you realize that this team is TWENTY NINTH in fielding percentage in MLB? Only the Giants are worse. My eyes are not deceiving me. The statistics bear it out. And while we won the game last night you need to be at least DECENT in the field to be relevant in the playoffs. Isn't that the goal? The goal isn't beating awful teams like the As and sometimes beating good ones. Its MAKING THE PLAYOFFS!

 

https://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/team/_/view/fielding

 

We have the most wins in the league against teams with a winning record. We actually might have the opposite problem, losing to bad teams too often (Pirates, Cardinals, White Sox)

[FredLynn]

Fielding percentage is a useless stat.

 

The Sox struggled with Kike at SS. But he’s no longer the SS with Chang - who was posting solid defensive metrics all over the place before getting hurt - holding that role for the foreseeable future.

 

Kike is an excellent defensive 2b. Duran isn’t ideal in CF but is at least several million times better than the raw disaster he was last year. Verdugo is posting some of the best defensive metrics in to he league in RF. Wong is a flat out good defensive catcher.

 

Devers isn’t great at third, but he’s not really making money because of his glove. Casas is disappointing at 1b but he can and will improve…

 

Fielding percentage is definitely of limited usefulness as a defensive metric, but to say its useless is incorrect. When a player can get to a ball fairly easily and there is an out to be made then its expected that the play will be completed competently the vast majority of the time. When that doesn't happen your fielding percentage goes down and you have given the other team another out. For example, when Devers last night easily got to a ball hit just about right to him and threw wide of Casas he gave the As another out. When Duran ran right past the ball hit to LF he gave them another out. That play was more difficult, but he did get there in time and its a play that has to be made. This is a pattern that repeats itself nearly every game and is one reason why we are in last place.

[FredLynn]

We have the most wins in the league against teams with a winning record. We actually might have the opposite problem, losing to bad teams too often (Pirates, Cardinals, White Sox)

 

The bottom line is that we are not competitive in the division and defense is one major reason why that is so. I would guess that most WS winners are at least decent defensively and we are now 29th in baseball in that category. Its an area that the team has to greatly improve if we are going to compete with the other good teams in the ALE. We are dead last in fielding percentage in the AL. Guess where the Rays and O's are. They are 1 and 2. Fortunately the Yankees are having a similar bad year in the field and are 12th in the league. You can't keep giving other teams extra outs and expect to win consistently.

[Dipre]

Fielding percentage is definitely of limited usefulness as a defensive metric, but to say its useless is incorrect. When a player can get to a ball fairly easily and there is an out to be made then its expected that the play will be completed competently the vast majority of the time. When that doesn't happen your fielding percentage goes down and you have given the other team another out. For example, when Devers last night easily got to a ball hit just about right to him and threw wide of Casas he gave the As another out. When Duran ran right past the ball hit to LF he gave them another out. That play was more difficult, but he did get there in time and its a play that has to be made. This is a pattern that repeats itself nearly every game and is one reason why we are in last place.

 

Fielding percentage is useless because not all fielding "chances" are created equal, and the stat doesn't account for it. It was useful when we didn't have any other metric, but we do now.

[FredLynn]

Fielding percentage is useless because not all fielding "chances" are created equal, and the stat doesn't account for it. It was useful when we didn't have any other metric, but we do now.

 

We aren’t (or at least I am not) talking about difficult plays that require great range. I am referring to plays that clearly should be made and aren’t getting made. Our 29th in baseball ranking in fielding percentage isn’t made up, nor is it insignificant. It’s going to have to get better if the team wants to be relevant this year, next year-any year.

[Dipre]

We aren’t (or at least I am not) talking about difficult plays that require great range. I am referring to plays that clearly should be made and aren’t getting made. Our 29th in baseball ranking in fielding percentage isn’t made up, nor is it insignificant. It’s going to have to get better if the team wants to be relevant this year, next year-any year.

 

This team's defense is bad. That's not even an argument. It should be much improved with a competent SS in Chang, but this isn't an efficient run prevention defense by any stretch of the imagination.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

The bottom line is that we are not competitive in the division and defense is one major reason why that is so. I would guess that most WS winners are at least decent defensively and we are now 29th in baseball in that category. Its an area that the team has to greatly improve if we are going to compete with the other good teams in the ALE. We are dead last in fielding percentage in the AL. Guess where the Rays and O's are. They are 1 and 2. Fortunately the Yankees are having a similar bad year in the field and are 12th in the league. You can't keep giving other teams extra outs and expect to win consistently.

 

How dare you use actual data like team defensive rankings (based on a stat MLB has used for over a century) to show how much worse the Red Sox are compared to the teams with the two best records in the American League, the first-place Rays and second-place Orioles. If someone says a statistical category is useless on talksox, then it absolutely must be... to them.

 

Count me as another poster on this forum to admit being totally wrong about Jarren Duran, whose speed and hustle have made him one of the most exciting players on a team defined by inconsistency. But when I watch a high fly bounce next to him, then over him, like last night, it was the second year in a row a chalkmark registered around his head on my "WTF -- this is a big league outfielder?" meter.

[moonslav59]

Fielding percentage is definitely of limited usefulness as a defensive metric, but to say its useless is incorrect. When a player can get to a ball fairly easily and there is an out to be made then its expected that the play will be completed competently the vast majority of the time. When that doesn't happen your fielding percentage goes down and you have given the other team another out. For example, when Devers last night easily got to a ball hit just about right to him and threw wide of Casas he gave the As another out. When Duran ran right past the ball hit to LF he gave them another out. That play was more difficult, but he did get there in time and its a play that has to be made. This is a pattern that repeats itself nearly every game and is one reason why we are in last place.

 

One problem is that some official scorers call the same play differently.

 

The Sox have made countless bad plays that weren't even called errors.

 

We suck on D. It might be one of the few things 90% of the board agrees on.

 

Our hitting is plus.

 

Our pen is plus.

 

Our rotation has surprisingly been about average and maybe above average after the first 3 weeks of the season.

 

Our D has potential to improve, especially at SS, 1B and 2B. LF could improve with Duvall there, but we can't play Yoshida and Turner at DH.

 

[notin]

Fielding percentage is definitely of limited usefulness as a defensive metric, but to say its useless is incorrect. When a player can get to a ball fairly easily and there is an out to be made then its expected that the play will be completed competently the vast majority of the time. When that doesn't happen your fielding percentage goes down and you have given the other team another out. For example, when Devers last night easily got to a ball hit just about right to him and threw wide of Casas he gave the As another out. When Duran ran right past the ball hit to LF he gave them another out. That play was more difficult, but he did get there in time and its a play that has to be made. This is a pattern that repeats itself nearly every game and is one reason why we are in last place.

 

In your own example, you cite the biggest problem with fielding percentage; it can penalize players just for getting there.

 

For example, let’s say you hit 100 identical groundballs to two shortstops. Shortstop A gets to 80 of them but makes every play. Shortstop B gets to all 100 but makes 10 errors.

 

Which shortstop is the better defender? Shortstop A had a better fielding percentage, but shortstop B was responsible for 10 more outs and only allowed half as many runners to reach base…

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

In your own example, you cite the biggest problem with fielding percentage; it can penalize players just for getting there.

 

For example, let’s say you hit 100 identical groundballs to two shortstops. Shortstop A gets to 80 of them but makes every play. Shortstop B gets to all 100 but makes 10 errors.

 

Which shortstop is the better defender? Shortstop A had a better fielding percentage, but shortstop B was responsible for 10 more outs and only allowed half as many runners to reach base…

 

Didn't we have this 1990 conversation before? SS A aka Cal Ripken (a guy who made a career playing every inning of every game) made 3 errors... for the season. SS B aka Ozzie Guillen made 17 Es -- and won the Gold Glove. But, to your point: CR 435 assists, 242 put-outs; OG 474 assists, 252 put-outs.

 

Obviously those stats show Oz accounted for more outs, and they might show more range... but Ripken was noted for his first step -- before contact -- knowing the hitters and pitchers and anticipating locations of batted balls. Is it possible Guillen had more chances because his pitching staff pitched to more contact, induced more ground balls, and kept the ball in the infield more than Baltimore's?

 

Upon review of '90 team pitching stats, the O's were second-to-last in the AL in strikeouts, while Chicago was better than league average. However, the fact that the White Sox won 94 games and the O's only 76 may mean that Baltimore's pitching just gave up more hard hits out of the infield. The Orioles gave up the second-most home runs; the ChiSox gave up the second-least...

[notin]

Didn't we have this 1990 conversation before? SS A aka Cal Ripken (a guy who made a career playing every inning of every game) made 3 errors... for the season. SS B aka Ozzie Guillen made 17 Es -- and won the Gold Glove. But, to your point: CR 435 assists, 242 put-outs; OG 474 assists, 252 put-outs.

 

Obviously those stats show Oz accounted for more outs, and they might show more range... but Ripken was noted for his first step -- before contact -- knowing the hitters and pitchers and anticipating locations of batted balls. Is it possible Guillen had more chances because his pitching staff pitched to more contact, induced more ground balls, and kept the ball in the infield more than Baltimore's?

 

Upon review of '90 team pitching stats, the O's were second-to-last in the AL in strikeouts, while Chicago was better than league average. However, the fact that the White Sox won 94 games and the O's only 76 may mean that Baltimore's pitching just gave up more hard hits out of the infield. The Orioles gave up the second-most home runs; the ChiSox gave up the second-least...

 

 

I think that was all just a family-sized firkin of fecal matter. If Ripken got by defensively on the “Wisdom of the Ages”, it didn’t show up on his reduced assist and output totals. “Sure he’s slower than the other shortstops, but he’s like Radar on M*A*S*H; he senses where the grounder is going and gets there first. It’s like a super power. Spoooo-ooooky!”

 

That was all just some lousy backstory to justify keeping him at SS for all those years. And a sad addition, as Ripken carried enough of a legacy without folks just making stuff up like that.

[moonslav59]

I think that was all just a family-sized firkin of fecal matter. If Ripken got by defensively on the “Wisdom of the Ages”, it didn’t show up on his reduced assist and output totals. “Sure he’s slower than the other shortstops, but he’s like Radar on M*A*S*H; he senses where the grounder is going and gets there first. It’s like a super power. Spoooo-ooooky!”

 

That was all just some lousy backstory to justify keeping him at SS for all those years. And a sad addition, as Ripken carried enough of a legacy without folks just making stuff up like that.

 

Don't get me started on Cal.

[Dipre]

Fielding percentage is terribly outdated. Full stop.