Story has surgery

[moonslav59]

And that Arroyo was better than JD…

 

That may end up being true over the next 3 years.

[Deja Doh]

Internal bracing of UCL. Timeline for position players usually 6+ months. So you won’t see him til the ASB most likely

 

Why wasn't this done last September?

[moonslav59]

Why wasn't this done last September?

 

Not all over again.

[S5Dewey]

Not all over again.

 

I still think it's a good question, although it's something we can't answer.

 

IMO the question is "who's driving the boat" when it comes to injuries? I've always been under the impression that when a player signed the contract they were turning control of their ability to play over to the club but now I'm not sure. Instead I sometimes hear that it might have been a mutual decision (IMO-HAH!). That brings it under the heading of, "If it's everyone's responsibility it's nobody's responsibility", which is a very nice and convenient way of avoiding public castigation.

 

You've said in the past that you don't like to try to establish "Blame" for what's happened so instead let's call it "responsibility". Who's responsible for making the decisions regarding injuries? Is it the club or the player? I would at least like to know where to direct my ire here.

Edited January 14, 2023 by S5Dewey

[moonslav59]

I still think it's a good question, although it's something we can't answer.

 

IMO the question is "who's driving the boat" when it comes to injuries? I've always been under the impression that when a player signed the contract they were turning control of their ability to play over to the club but now I'm not sure. Instead I sometimes hear that it might have been a mutual decision (IMO-HAH!). That brings it under the heading of, "If it's everyone's responsibility it's nobody's responsibility", which is a very nice and convenient way of avoiding public castigation.

 

You've said in the past that you don't like to try to establish "Blame" for what's happened so instead let's call it "responsibility". Who's responsible for making the decisions regarding injuries? Is it the club or the player? I would at least like to know where to direct my ire here.

 

We've gone through this.

 

Story was not injured in SEP. He didn't even know he was hurt, until he started getting throwing in December.

 

If they thought he should have had surgery before he felt pain, then they should have done it when they signed him or not signed him at all.

[notin]

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/mlb-rumors-red-sox-linked-005300441.html

 

Not ideal, but better than most rumors…

[notin]

I still think it's a good question, although it's something we can't answer.

 

IMO the question is "who's driving the boat" when it comes to injuries? I've always been under the impression that when a player signed the contract they were turning control of their ability to play over to the club but now I'm not sure. Instead I sometimes hear that it might have been a mutual decision (IMO-HAH!). That brings it under the heading of, "If it's everyone's responsibility it's nobody's responsibility", which is a very nice and convenient way of avoiding public castigation.

 

You've said in the past that you don't like to try to establish "Blame" for what's happened so instead let's call it "responsibility". Who's responsible for making the decisions regarding injuries? Is it the club or the player? I would at least like to know where to direct my ire here.

 

I’d be surprised if teams had the ability to force a player to have surgery…

[moonslav59]

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/mlb-rumors-red-sox-linked-005300441.html

 

Not ideal, but better than most rumors…

 

Wouldn't just getting a 1 year SS be easier/better?

[Old Red]

I’d be surprised if teams had the ability to force a player to have surgery…

 

Nobody can force anyone to have surgery, but the fact is the Red Sox knew Story had a bad elbow when they signed him. Even Craig Biggio, and Jeff Bagwell two non doctors said they knew he would have to eventually need surgery. I guess the Red Sox couldn’t have figured that out.

[Bellhorn04]

We've gone through this.

 

Story was not injured in SEP. He didn't even know he was hurt, until he started getting throwing in December.

 

If they thought he should have had surgery before he felt pain, then they should have done it when they signed him or not signed him at all.

 

Yes, the real question is whether he was damaged goods when we signed him. It certainly appears that he was damaged goods in the same sense that Sale was.

[Old Red]

Yes, the real question is whether he was damaged goods when we signed him. It certainly appears that he was damaged goods in the same sense that Sale was.

 

And that goes back to my question a few days ago, which was anything missed, or questions on the medicals, which no one has come forward, and said like with Correa.

Edited January 14, 2023 by Old Red

[Bellhorn04]

And that goes back to my question a few days ago, which was anything missed on the medicals, which no one has come forward, and said like with Correa.

 

It seems that the doctors can only do so much to predict future problems. In Correa's case the problem was much more obvious - he has a plate in his leg.

 

That being said, the fan in the street could have told you Sale and Story were injury risks.

[Bellhorn04]

From Chad Finn of the Globe:

 

A redemptive second Boston season out of Trevor Story — you know, the Bogaerts leverage — is out of the question after his elbow surgery, as if those Jamie Moyer fastballs he was throwing from shortstop during his last season with the Rockies weren’t a clue that something might go wrong.

[Old Red]

It seems that the doctors can only do so much to predict future problems. In Correa's case the problem was much more obvious - he has a plate in his leg.

 

That being said, the fan in the street could have told you Sale and Story were injury risks.

 

And they did, and they were right.

[Old Red]

From Chad Finn of the Globe:

 

A redemptive second Boston season out of Trevor Story — you know, the Bogaerts leverage — is out of the question after his elbow surgery, as if those Jamie Moyer fastballs he was throwing from shortstop during his last season with the Rockies weren’t a clue that something might go wrong.

 

I guess Bloom wasn’t good at Clue.

[notin]

It seems that the doctors can only do so much to predict future problems. In Correa's case the problem was much more obvious - he has a plate in his leg.

 

That being said, the fan in the street could have told you Sale and Story were injury risks.

 

Story had a flexor strain in his elbow. Normal treatment is rest and anti-inflammatory meds. If the average man on the street checked via WebMD, he would have seen they rarely require surgery. Of course, treatment for athletes is often a bit more aggressive than treatment for the average WebMD peruser, but that this came down to surgery appears to be new recent developments and not the flexor strain he had in 2021…

[Bellhorn04]

Story had a flexor strain in his elbow. Normal treatment is rest and anti-inflammatory meds. If the average man on the street checked via WebMD, he would have seen they rarely require surgery. Of course, treatment for athletes is often a bit more aggressive than treatment for the average WebMD peruser, but that this came down to surgery appears to be new recent developments and not the flexor strain he had in 2021…

 

Aren't flexor strains in the elbow for baseball players a frequent precursor to TJS?

 

Anyway, this is isn't about surgery vs. rest for me, it's about the wisdom of signing the guy in the first place.

[Bellhorn04]

I mean, we go on and on about DD extending Sale, but the doctors cleared Sale too, and he did pitch 147 innings in 2019 and record the second-highest K rate of his career.

[Old Red]

I mean, we go on and on about DD extending Sale, but the doctors cleared Sale too, and he did pitch 147 innings in 2019 and record the second-highest K rate of his career.

 

DD was chastised from here, there, and everywhere, and Bloom will get the same, sometimes these things take awhile, before they get to the point where surgery is needed as it seems was the case with Sale, and Story. I’m guess Bloom did not get a pat on the back from JH when Story had the surgery.

[notin]

Aren't flexor strains in the elbow for baseball players a frequent precursor to TJS?

 

Anyway, this is isn't about surgery vs. rest for me, it's about the wisdom of signing the guy in the first place.

 

In pitchers, maybe? For position players, I’d be surprised. Not many position players get TJ, or even the substitute.

 

As for signing him in the first place, I simply never liked him as a fit. But as for his flexor strain, I don’t know much about it, but probably wouldn’t have been too concerned unless he was a pitcher.

[moonslav59]

I mean, we go on and on about DD extending Sale, but the doctors cleared Sale too, and he did pitch 147 innings in 2019 and record the second-highest K rate of his career.

 

Ultimately, when GMs sign previously injured players, they know they are taking a risk and rely on what the doctors say. They weigh the chance or further injury, especially as related to the previous one vs what the player might produce when healthy or mostly healthy.

 

In Sale's case, I think DD did the right thing. He paid Sale 4 years of pay on a 5 year contract, thinking he'd likely miss a year. Had Sale only missed one year and pitched well the other 4, we'd all be happy. 4 years of vintage Sale is worth $145M, easily, in today's market.

 

Any player can get hurt at any time, but the ones who re-injure past and known injuries seem to stick out as dumb signings. Nobody calls the 2022 Verlander signing a mistake, despite his injury history. Some called the Nate 4 year deal a mistake, and maybe it was. He did miss some time, but probably earned that $68M over 4 years.

 

GM are always the fall guys, It's the nature of the business. They are expected to be fortune tellers and be able to predict decline, inclines, injuries and career years. It's totally understandable why they get the blame. They usually make the final decision, unless a ton of money is involved.

 

One can make a strong case against some of DD's choices- like the Sale extension and not locking up our younger players earlier, but I think he did a great job signing players, trading some over-rated prospects for useful pieces and to me, extending one of the greatest SP'ers in the previous decade to a $145M/5 year deal, despite the injury risk, was totally understandable. Of course, in hindsight we can say, why didn't he just wait a year, but had Sale won the Cy Young, he's have cost $250M/6, and we'd b e bitching about why we let Sale go to free agency. It's a now-in job these GMs have, and when they win it all, they usually don't get too much credit or praise.

[notin]

DD was chastised from here, there, and everywhere, and Bloom will get the same, sometimes these things take awhile, before they get to the point where surgery is needed as it seems was the case with Sale, and Story. I’m guess Bloom did not get a pat on the back from JH when Story had the surgery.

 

There’s a big, big, big difference between extending a pitcher with an injured pitching elbow and signing an infielder with a flexor strain. Did the flexor strain even cost Story any games last season? He missed a lot of time with a wrist fracture from getting hit by a pitch, which is obviously completely unrelated…

[notin]

Ultimately, when GMs sign previously injured players, they know they are taking a risk and rely on what the doctors say. They weigh the chance or further injury, especially as related to the previous one vs what the player might produce when healthy or mostly healthy.

 

In Sale's case, I think DD did the right thing. He paid Sale 4 years of pay on a 5 year contract, thinking he'd likely miss a year. Had Sale only missed one year and pitched well the other 4, we'd all be happy. 4 years of vintage Sale is worth $145M, easily, in today's market.

 

Any player can get hurt at any time, but the ones who re-injure past and known injuries seem to stick out as dumb signings. Nobody calls the 2022 Verlander signing a mistake, despite his injury history. Some called the Nate 4 year deal a mistake, and maybe it was. He did miss some time, but probably earned that $68M over 4 years.

 

GM are always the fall guys, It's the nature of the business. They are expected to be fortune tellers and be able to predict decline, inclines, injuries and career years. It's totally understandable why they get the blame. They usually make the final decision, unless a ton of money is involved.

 

One can make a strong case against some of DD's choices- like the Sale extension and not locking up our younger players earlier, but I think he did a great job signing players, trading some over-rated prospects for useful pieces and to me, extending one of the greatest SP'ers in the previous decade to a $145M/5 year deal, despite the injury risk, was totally understandable. Of course, in hindsight we can say, why didn't he just wait a year, but had Sale won the Cy Young, he's have cost $250M/6, and we'd b e bitching about why we let Sale go to free agency. It's a now-in job these GMs have, and when they win it all, they usually don't get too much credit or praise.

 

That’s an interesting take on Sale I never considered. Of course it would have been nice if Sale knew about this.

 

And the last three Sale injuries are obviously unrelated to the one at that deal.

 

But my primary gripe at the time was - just don’t sign him…

[moonslav59]

That’s an interesting take on Sale I never considered. Of course it would have been nice if Sale knew about this.

 

And the last three Sale injuries are obviously unrelated to the one at that deal.

 

But my primary gripe at the time was - just don’t sign him…

 

I totally get your and others' opinion, and it wasn't "hindsight" to many posters, but to me, we were talking about Chris Freakin' Sale. He was easily one of MLB's top 3 pitchers for 7 straight years: ages 24-29. It's not like we were extending a 33 or 34 year starter.

 

True, his mechanics screamed of pending problems. I get all that, but we had maybe the best SP'er in baseball on our staff and he was nearing free agency. DD locked him up before he got there, something many are bitching about Bloom not doing with our studs, recently. I get your point about the mistake of pivoting away from Betts and locking up Sale and Nate, instead. In DD's defense, he did make a solid offer to Betts and got an extra year from Bogey with his extension, but he guessed wrongly on Sale and maybe partially with Nate.

 

Sure, the GM is always to blame when things go south, but I liked the Sale extension when we made it, knowing full well, he might miss a season, so I'm not going to throw DD under the bus for extending a great SP'er to 5 years (ages 31-35.) This was not a 7 year deal, like Prices. To me, that deal was worse than Sale's.

[Old Red]

There’s a big, big, big difference between extending a pitcher with an injured pitching elbow and signing an infielder with a flexor strain. Did the flexor strain even cost Story any games last season? He missed a lot of time with a wrist fracture from getting hit by a pitch, which is obviously completely unrelated…

 

I understand there is a big difference between a P, and a SS. Sale pitched in 2019, and Story as far as we know didn’t have any problems last year, but in both cases it was just a matter of time.

[Bellhorn04]

In pitchers, maybe? For position players, I’d be surprised. Not many position players get TJ, or even the substitute.

 

As for signing him in the first place, I simply never liked him as a fit. But as for his flexor strain, I don’t know much about it, but probably wouldn’t have been too concerned unless he was a pitcher.

 

It seems like it's become a thing for position players too now...

[moonslav59]

Of course it would have been nice if Sale knew about this.

 

 

Why do you think Sale took $145M/5, instead of a David Price type deal? He was better than Price was at his signing and the same age when the contract began.

 

2 less years

 

$72M less dollars

 

When the Sale deal was signed, he had just put up these numbers in his previous 7 years:

 

1388 IP (198 IP/yr)

2.91 ERA (143 ERA+)

1.02 WHIP

5.6 K/BB

 

Price's previous 7 seasons before signed by DD:

1428 IP (204 IP/season- just 6 more IP/yr than Sale.)

3.10 ERA (126 ERA+)

1.13 WHIP

3.7 K/BB

 

Of course, Price did not have a violent delivery. Sale had already shown injury issues, and I'm pretty sure Sale "knew this," and that's why he took less than what Price got. It was NOT news to him.

 

 

[moonslav59]

It seems like it's become a thing for position players too now...

 

True, but how many position players who have had flexor issues ended up getting TJS or what Story ended up getting?

 

I think the move to 2B was expected to greatly lessen the chances of him ever needing surgery. That's one reason why many felt he should not be moved to SS, upon Bogey's departure.

 

It was an unfortunate result of a gamble taken by Bloom & Co. There is still 4 years left on the deal, after 2023. Maybe something good can b e salvaged out of the deal, but these kind of deals are not the kind you look for back-end production or glory from.

 

Add Story to the long list of disappointment or flop major signings by the Sox over the last decade or two.

[Bellhorn04]

There’s a big, big, big difference between extending a pitcher with an injured pitching elbow and signing an infielder with a flexor strain.

 

But Sale was cleared by the docs and pitched 147 innings and struck out 13.3 per 9.

 

So the argument about "waiting a few months to see if Sale is healthy" doesn't hold up. He did look healthy after a few months.

Edited January 14, 2023 by Bellhorn04

[moonslav59]

But Sale was cleared by the docs and pitched 147 innings and struck out 13.1 per 9.

 

So the argument about "waiting a few months to see if Sale is healthy" doesn't hold up. He did look healthy after a few months.

 

Exactly.

 

While his FIP was 3.39, it was 3.46 in 2016 and over 3.12 each season from 2011-2013, too.

 

Yes, there was concern, but the risk-reward calculation was not some obvious no-brainer choice.

 

The reward side of the choice was enormous. The risk side was, too. We guessed wrongly. It happens with all GMs.