Rodon

[moonslav59]

Bloom has done wonders for the MiLB system, but not because he’s added tremendous talent, mostly because he has had a bad team that allowed for a high pick and he’s not trading away his diamonds in the rough. Mayer is special and you only get a guy like that when you suck.

 

But he made a MASSIVE error in not tearing down at the break. Massive. He knew they weren’t gonna keep Bogaerts. He knew he wasnt gonna try and keep Eovaldi. What’s the point of them playing out a string and getting a 4th rounder for them?

 

One other part to building up a farm- not trading away any top farm assets.

 

He also added Whitlock, Kelly and German, and not by having teams that finished low in the standings.

[Old Red]

How can the Red Sox tank when they're going to be way better?

 

For those who somehow think Henry will suddenly have an epiphany and start spending like the before he was very old days, the question is only: on what? All the top free agent starting pitchers are now signed... in this offseason with tons of money coming off the Boston books that would supposedly define the Bloom Era.

 

The Sox lost three starting pitchers, and haven't replaced them... but have confidence in Bloom's adamance about putting Whitlock and Houck in the rotation: "we would be silly to deny them a chance to reach that ceiling."

 

Here's his plan: "We'll see how it plays out..."

Bloom wouldn’t have lied to Kike would he when he said they were going to be better this year would he? Could he? Should he?

[Hugh2]

One other part to building up a farm- not trading away any top farm assets.

 

He also added Whitlock, Kelly and German, and not by having teams that finished low in the standings.

 

Bloom has brought in talent, but a lot of his trades have been underwhelming. Whitlock was a gem, and the early returns on his drafting and IFA signings appear to be very good. But the trading, it's too early to judge and it could change if a guy or two pop but it doesn't look great.

[moonslav59]

Sounds like you are doing what you accuse other fans of being. A crybaby fan.

 

No matter how much I simplify it for you, you still totally miss my point.

 

The "crybaby" statement was about upset fans that forced Bloom & Co. to not do even a mild sell-off, unless you count Vaz as such. It wasn't meant as an accusatory thing other than towards Sox management for letting them alter what should have been done.

 

Later, when yo started crying about me using the term crybaby, I called you one, and the shoe clearly fits, because here you are still at it.

 

I also said both sides cry and listed things I cry about. That's "accusatory?"

 

LMAO!

[moonslav59]

There were all kinds of reasons for last years finish, from injuries to lack of production from the big stars, but Bloom had a lot to do with it too starting with his infamous JBJ trade, his very bad failed plan for the back end of the BP to start the season, and then of course his do nothing approach to the 1B, CF problem of Franchy Strangeglove, and Duran the Butterfly Man, until the trade deadline. There were still in it at that point, and to me still should have gone for a postseason birth. You didn’t like it, but many did.

 

Yes, many did, and that was part of the reason, IMO, we did not trade JDand or Nate.

 

I get the fact there were other reasons, but IMO, if they knew the fans would get over trading Nate and JD at the deadline, fairly quickly, they be gone.

 

It's just my opinion, and many disagree.

 

You bashed Bloom and the flawed the team all year. When I agreed about the team being so flawed we had no chance, and was one of the first, if not the first to jump ship, you defend the team as looking like they had a chance.

 

Pick a side and stick to it.

 

You know we had no chance, and I know you know.

[Old Red]

Yes, many did, and that was part of the reason, IMO, we did not trade JDand or Nate.

 

I get the fact there were other reasons, but IMO, if they knew the fans would get over trading Nate and JD at the deadline, fairly quickly, they be gone.

 

It's just my opinion, and many disagree.

 

You bashed Bloom and the flawed the team all year. When I agreed about the team being so flawed we had no chance, and was one of the first, if not the first to jump ship, you defend the team as looking like they had a chance.

 

Pick a side and stick to it.

 

You know we had no chance, and I know you know.

I criticized Bloom all year, and rightfully so, and I listed the reasons why, and no I wasn’t the only one on here who said the Red Sox should have played out the string, and you know that too. The bad part was I had to pick up the daily wildcard standings update when you bailed out, so at least I didn’t quit like you did.

[Old Red]

Bloom has brought in talent, but a lot of his trades have been underwhelming. Whitlock was a gem, and the early returns on his drafting and IFA signings appear to be very good. But the trading, it's too early to judge and it could change if a guy or two pop but it doesn't look great.

It’s to early to judge Jeter, and Franchy two of Bloom’s prized returns?

[moonslav59]

How can the Red Sox tank when they're going to be way better?

 

For those who somehow think Henry will suddenly have an epiphany and start spending like the before he was very old days, the question is only: on what? All the top free agent starting pitchers are now signed... in this offseason with tons of money coming off the Boston books that would supposedly define the Bloom Era.

 

The Sox lost three starting pitchers, and haven't replaced them... but have confidence in Bloom's adamance about putting Whitlock and Houck in the rotation: "we would be silly to deny them a chance to reach that ceiling."

 

Here's his plan: "We'll see how it plays out..."

 

My guess is, he "starts spending" like the ole days, next winter. Just a guess.

 

I'm not sure how the fans will tolerate it. It got pretty bad, this past season and exploded after the Bogey departure.

 

One big step would be to extend Devers by opening day or shortly afterwards.

 

Adding 2-3 from Kluber, Conforto, Gallo and Andrus would help partially patch a few holes up, perhaps enough to make us WC competitive in '23, but that's a long shot.

 

It appears their "secret plan" was to shoot for 2024 or 2025, all along. Maybe the honestly felt they could stay competitive or semi-competitive enough along the way to keep fans from bailing, but their efforts have been half-assed, which has actually made things worse. Their way on conveying their plans to the fans and media is about as bad as I've ever seen a team be.

 

To me, it seemed, and still seems like we have been steadily building up the farm and increasing the amount of young, cost-controlled players on the 40 man roster for 3 straight years, but we kept getting in our own way by clinging to to the false hopes of winning it all in in 2021 or 2022. They didn't believe it themselves, but they tried to sell it to us.

 

I know, I know, we were just a few plays from making the WS in 2021, so how can I say "false hopes?" That's a good argument against my positions, but all these non moves to keep us temporarily semi-competitive has sabotaged the long term plan, which I think was at the heart of the Bloom hiring.

 

Where do we go from here, the right now?

 

I'm not sure, even they know.

[Hugh2]

It’s to early to judge Jeter, and Franchy two of Bloom’s prized returns?

 

no.

[Bellhorn04]

It does look like 2024 is more of a priority than 2023, but there were a few deals that might have been made that would have helped both, and beyond.

 

I really can't bring myself to believe that Henry is in a cocoon or just doesn't care what is going on around Sox Nation to not snap out of it, and do something spectacular by opening day.

 

The options are coming down to just a trade or trades, and with the future being the untouchable goal, I'm not sure how they can pull it off, or if it would even make sense, at this point.

 

The plan seems to have been to replace Bogey with Mayer, so how do we now trade Mayer?

 

Our rotation is already heavily depending on Bello and maybe even Mata, so how do we trade one of them?

 

We need a RF'er and Kike has one year of control left. Yoshida can only play LF or DH, so how do we trade Rafaela?

 

We don't get a high impact player for Yorke, Walter and Romero, and I doubt they'd even consider trading them or Bleis, for that matter.

 

Is the plan really to reset and splurge, next winter?

 

Can Sox nation stomach another off year and promises of "next year we will be better?"

 

We are fast running out of options to get us just past respectability and having a sliver of grander hoped for more than a WC game.

 

You nailed it pretty well here.

[Old Red]

My guess is, he "starts spending" like the ole days, next winter. Just a guess.

 

I'm not sure how the fans will tolerate it. It got pretty bad, this past season and exploded after the Bogey departure.

 

One big step would be to extend Devers by opening day or shortly afterwards.

 

Adding 2-3 from Kluber, Conforto, Gallo and Andrus would help partially patch a few holes up, perhaps enough to make us WC competitive in '23, but that's a long shot.

 

It appears their "secret plan" was to shoot for 2024 or 2025, all along. Maybe the honestly felt they could stay competitive or semi-competitive enough along the way to keep fans from bailing, but their efforts have been half-assed, which has actually made things worse. Their way on conveying their plans to the fans and media is about as bad as I've ever seen a team be.

 

To me, it seemed, and still seems like we have been steadily building up the farm and increasing the amount of young, cost-controlled players on the 40 man roster for 3 straight years, but we kept getting in our own way by clinging to to the false hopes of winning it all in in 2021 or 2022. They didn't believe it themselves, but they tried to sell it to us.

 

I know, I know, we were just a few plays from making the WS in 2021, so how can I say "false hopes?" That's a good argument against my positions, but all these non moves to keep us temporarily semi-competitive has sabotaged the long term plan, which I think was at the heart of the Bloom hiring.

 

Where do we go from here, the right now?

 

I'm not sure, even they know.

Then why did Bloom lie to Kike, and tell him the Red Sox were going to be better next year?

[Bellhorn04]

Then why did Bloom lie to Kike, and tell him the Red Sox were going to be better next year?

 

Because part of being a HOBO is being a politician.

[Old Red]

Because part of being a HOBO is being a politician.

 

But Kike bought in whole line, and sinker.

[moonslav59]

I criticized Bloom all year, and rightfully so, and I listed the reasons why, and no I wasn’t the only one on here who said the Red Sox should have played out the string, and you know that too. The bad part was I had to pick up the daily wildcard standings update when you bailed out, so at least I didn’t quit like you did.

 

I did not say you were the only one. I do remember you saying Bogey has a no trade clause, which was correct, but had we traded JD and Nate and asked Bogey if he wanted to shed his QO and go to a team in the playoffs, I think he'd have agreed.

 

Yes, I quit, then, I'm not proud of it. I'm usually one of the last to bail.

 

Seems like many have quit, now and with many good reasons, and my point is if we had "quit" at the deadline, we'd be better off, now. Can I now say my position back then was "rightfully so?" of is that phrase only to be used by you.

 

I was wrong about a lot, last year and before. I was right about how horrific the JBJ trade was and many of the other moves we both disliked from day one. It turns out many of us were right that the minute we signed Story, Bogey's departure was as near a sure bet as can be. I was right about the 2022 having no chance at a ring, and being the first one to think that does not make me any smarter. Of course, on paper and with hopes of so many returning players from the IL, we still had a technical chance. What I felt was we had no chance for a ring. I'm not a believer in the playoffs-are-a-crap-shoot crowd, and this year nearly proved me wrong on that position, too, but to me, any slight chance of pulling off what the Phillies just did was outweighed by how badly not resetting would hurt us AND how much better off we'd have been this winter had we strengthened the roster further by adding pieces via trades of JD, Nate, Wacha, Hill and B ogey, if he accepted.

 

Now, we look screwed and Henry & Bloom are to blame for not doing what most did not want him to do, this summer- among many other things, of course.

[Bellhorn04]

But Kike bought in whole line, and sinker.

 

The "we'll pay you $10 million for one year" part may have had something to do with it.

[Bellhorn04]

We need to stop re-litigating last year's trade deadline. Those who said fire sale have been proven to be right. I still don't fault the team for not doing it.

 

What's done is done.

[notin]

We need to stop re-litigating last year's trade deadline. Those who said fire sale have been proven to be right. I still don't fault the team for not doing it.

 

What's done is done.

 

I didn’t mind them going for it. And the tone player they did deal, they sitting up upgrading the position…

[Bellhorn04]

I didn’t mind them going for it. And the tone player they did deal, they sitting up upgrading the position…

 

I think it remains to be seen if McGuire is an upgrade.

[moonslav59]

Then why did Bloom lie to Kike, and tell him the Red Sox were going to be better next year?

 

Looks like a big lie. I can't believe he thought we were going to do more, this winter.

 

I realize the market surge for the best player made the $80M many of us though could buy us 3-4 big players turn into hopes for maybe 2-3, and the reality of just Yoshida. Look, I get it. I'm pissed, too. We still have $40M on the table, and the table is full of just scraps.

 

This was the plan they felt "made us better?"

 

There are no explanations, except that it's been one long sham since the first time they said we were going to try and "be competitive." That was, what, 2 years ago?

 

I'm not defending Bloom, here, but this is coming from the top. The top would not allow any splurges, this winter, and that makes it impossible for me to think they could never have truly believed we'd be better.

 

On the flip side, and I know we are all pissed, and maybe some want to wallow in the mire for much longer than I do, I am going to try and be optimistic about the extended future and also enjoy watching the kids come up, this year. This is not taking Sox brass off the hook, and maybe it is just how I cope with frustration and anger. (I hate letting if fester, but they are making it so hard to move on.)

 

I'm curious about how well McGuire and Wong will do, and if catcher defense and staff handling matters as much as I think it does.

 

I'm dying to see if Casas is the real thing and actually not see buffoon defense at 1B, this year.

 

I'm hoping Story makes his $140M/6 deal look like the deal of the decade.

 

I'm excited to see what Devers will do, now that he has reached peak prime.

 

I'm dreaming that Arroyo can play a full season. I think E valdez may surprise many of us.

 

The Yoshida addition is a big question mark, but his approach has me feeling positive anticipations.

 

I'm a big Kike fan, and hope he can bounce back from a bad year and stay healthy for 2023.

 

I don't like Dugo in RF, but I like the look of an .800+ platoon of Dugo & Ref. Maybe that outweighs the drop in RF D. We'll see,

 

I'm loving the pen more than even the 2018 one, when Kimbrel was a pins and needles closer, especially at the end of '18.

 

I'm very hopeful about Bello, Mata, Kelly and German. I'm thinking 1-2 might shine from Walter, Crawford, Murphy, Winckowski or Seabold. That's 9 young pitchers with varying levels of promise and skillsets.

 

I'm done "hoping" for Sale to start 25+ games, but he might? If he doesn't, maybe he and Paxton can combine for 25+ or even 33.

 

I like Pivetta as our #5, but he has to stay at #5, or it won't be that pretty,

 

I'd like to see Houck given one role and keep him there. I have my preference, but even if they choose the other option, just stick with it! I'm expecting good things from him.

 

Maybe Barnes and or Taylor shine, again.

 

There is a lot, here to look forward to watching, if you choose to want to be optimistic about.

 

This isn't the same as saying be optimistic about winning even 90 games, but there could be a lot of fun things to watch. (No, I'm not going for the Sox PR job, but I'm not going to be miserable all winter long, either.)

 

 

 

 

[moonslav59]

We need to stop re-litigating last year's trade deadline. Those who said fire sale have been proven to be right. I still don't fault the team for not doing it.

 

What's done is done.

 

Well said, and one can argue we were right in hindsight, only.

[moonslav59]

I think it remains to be seen if McGuire is an upgrade.

 

Not many players age well after 30. It is likely Vaz will be better than McGuire in 2023, but maybe not beyond. Maybe Wong will be so much better than Plawecki, it all evens out or even becomes a plus, sooner than 2024.

 

The staff-handling aspect or catchers may be more important than ever in 2023.

 

We ended up basically trading Vaz, Groome and Nortcut. Vaz was going to be a FA we obviously had no intention of bringing back. Groome was probably going to be left unprotected on Rule 5, if Ward was.

 

Going forward, we added...

 

McGuire

E Valdez

Abreu

Ferguson

Rosier

 

I have to think we look better, now, because of those trades.

Edited December 16, 2022 by moonslav59

[mvp 78]

We need to stop re-litigating last year's trade deadline. Those who said fire sale have been proven to be right. I still don't fault the team for not doing it.

 

What's done is done.

 

1. Stop relitigating? No, it's fine to relitigate it until this year's team is actually constructed. There really isn't enough other meat on the bone to discuss right now.

2. Those who said. Yes, I was right AS USUAL.

3. Fault the team for not doing it. I guess? I see why they thought they should go for it, but at the time I thought that ship was sinking fast. FO has more information on their end, but it was an odd decision to stay over the cap to hurt your comp selections.

[Bellhorn04]

1. Stop relitigating? No, it's fine to relitigate it until this year's team is actually constructed. There really isn't enough other meat on the bone to discuss right now.

2. Those who said. Yes, I was right AS USUAL.

3. Fault the team for not doing it. I guess? I see why they thought they should go for it, but at the time I thought that ship was sinking fast. FO has more information on their end, but it was an odd decision to stay over the cap to hurt your comp selections.

 

I would submit that the real mistake was going over the cap at the start of the season, and that's where the trade for JBJ comes into the conversation.

[mvp 78]

I think it remains to be seen if McGuire is an upgrade.

 

McGuire may not provide an onfield upgrade, but he's much cheaper than Vaz's 10M AAV right now and the cost savings was pushed to the pen where it was much needed. I don't think the dropoff will be all that noticeable.

 

Career wRC+

McGuire: 85

Vaz: 84

 

McGuire's behind the plate skills (framing, pop time) are better than Vaz too.

[mvp 78]

I would submit that the real mistake was going over the cap at the start of the season, and that's where the trade for JBJ comes into the conversation.

 

They screwed the pooch early on and it was extremely hard to unscrew.

[mvp 78]

Well said, and one can argue we were right in hindsight, only.

 

That makes no sense.

[Bellhorn04]

They screwed the pooch early on and it was extremely hard to unscrew.

 

Exactly.

[moonslav59]

1. Stop relitigating? No, it's fine to relitigate it until this year's team is actually constructed. There really isn't enough other meat on the bone to discuss right now.

2. Those who said. Yes, I was right AS USUAL.

3. Fault the team for not doing it. I guess? I see why they thought they should go for it, but at the time I thought that ship was sinking fast. FO has more information on their end, but it was an odd decision to stay over the cap to hurt your comp selections.

 

All along we said, get something for Nate and Bogey beyond just a comp pick, and then we end up with 2 picks after the 4th round rather than after the 2nd- further screwing the pooch.

[notin]

I think it remains to be seen if McGuire is an upgrade.

 

He was last year.

 

I wouldn’t mind if they got a catcher above him, and was disappointed William Contreras went so cheaply. I give up Rafaela in that scenario…

[moonslav59]

I would submit that the real mistake was going over the cap at the start of the season, and that's where the trade for JBJ comes into the conversation.

 

Yup, and I said at the time, the worst part was the money aspect, when we were looking at a very tight squeeze to stay under the line.