2023 Free Agents

[notin]

It’s amazing that whenever I don’t agree with someone on here it’s either I don’t get something, or I don’t know something. I get, and know plenty, and that’s why there is a disagreement. For the upteenth time Bloom is a failure, and Sam Kennedy said so, and I agree 100% with him, and no one is going to charnge my mind, but try as you will. You look at things one way, and I look at them another.

 

So tell me how was Bloom supposed to unload Sale’s contract? By the time Bloom joined the team, that contract hadn’t even started yet and Sale was already diagnosed as needing TJ.

 

Please enlighten me about how a 5 year contract goes away in 3 years for a pitcher in his 30s who is owed $145mill and coming of TJ surgery?

 

Do you need 3 years to answer?

[moonslav59]

Ben C. made an important contribution as well, of course, because the 2018 team wouldn't have gone over the tax threshold without the $54 million dead money of Hanley, Pablo and Pedroia.

 

Yes, of course. It's not just the DD carry-over that is significant. Every GM is handed a set of cards to deal with, which includes the 40 man roster foundation, the budget and the farm.

 

Our whole point about Bloom is that he was handed a set of cards that was among the worst, budget wise and farm wise, and when you factor in the mandate to trade Betts, price and probably Beni, the foundation was crumbling.

 

Theo was handed a strong foundation but not great farm. He was allowed to spend, but not much at first. (He already had Manny & Pedro.)

 

Ben was handed a decent foundation and okay farm, but it seemed like he was handed a top priority of rebuilding the farm. He ended up trading away most of the foundation and built up a near top farm for the next guy...

 

DD was handed enough top farm hands to trade away and build an amazing 40 man roster foundation. He was also allowed to spend hugely (Price and Sale extension.) The foundation he was handed was not great, but he did have a solid core of Betts, Bogey, Beni and was smart enough to not trade away Devers.

 

Bloom was handed the worst farm of the 4. None of the 4 were forced to cut the budget so radically in year one, and barely stay even for the next 2 seasons. That's two of the 3 major tenants of being a GM that were severely lacking. The foundation quality is debatable, because it included Betts, Beni, and at the time a somewhat decent Price and freakin Chris Sale not Chris freakin Sale, but when you take Betts, Price and Beni away and look at the expected decline of aging guys like JD, who actually did okay for his age, one can argue the foundation was not as good as the hopes of the remnants of 2018 promised .

[Old Red]

So tell me how was Bloom supposed to unload Sale’s contract? By the time Bloom joined the team, that contract hadn’t even started yet and Sale was already diagnosed as needing TJ.

 

Please enlighten me about how a 5 year contract goes away in 3 years for a pitcher in his 30s who is owed $145mill and coming of TJ surgery?

 

Do you need 3 years to answer?

 

Tell me why, tell me why, tell me why. Sale’s bad DD contract prevented the Red Sox from being a winning in the postseason team last year? Why are we focusing just on Sale’s contract? Is that all you got?

[Hugh2]

It’s amazing that whenever I don’t agree with someone on here it’s either I don’t get something, or I don’t know something. I get, and know plenty, and that’s why there is a disagreement. For the upteenth time Bloom is a failure, and Sam Kennedy said so, and I agree 100% with him, and no one is going to charnge my mind, but try as you will. You look at things one way, and I look at them another.

 

Would your opinions change if the Sox won a World Series in 2023? Or 2024?

[dgalehouse]

Also the vast majority of those teams that won 2016-2019 were players either acquired, or drafted under Ben C. Not trying to take anything away from Dave who has a proven track record, but he walked into a great situation with a team already built to win.

 

You could also say the 2022 Red Sox wouldn’t have gone over the cap if Dave didn’t sign Sale to an extension.

 

Dombrowski " walked into " a situation where the Sox had finished in the cellar two years running. He won immediately. He was far more successful than Ben or Chaim. The record speaks for itself.

[moonslav59]

Also the vast majority of those teams that won 2016-2019 were players either acquired, or drafted under Ben C. Not trying to take anything away from Dave who has a proven track record, but he walked into a great situation with a team already built to win.

 

You could also say the 2022 Red Sox wouldn’t have gone over the cap if Dave didn’t sign Sale to an extension.

 

And, although many of the highly ranked prospects he traded away did not amount to much, he had the ability to trade many of them, keeping Devers, and acquire guys like Sale, Kimbrell, PomPom, Nate, Pearce and Nunez, among others. I counted 20 prospects that were at one time or another a top 20 prospect on soxprospects,com he traded away. Granted, some were no longer top 20, but he also traded away Shaw and a few others.

 

(I'm not complaining, but just pointing out the stack he was handed that enabled him to acquire a guy like Sale and to a lesser extend Kimbrell. Bloom did not have that choice, even if they let him trade top prospects away.

[Old Red]

Dombrowski " walked into " a situation where the Sox had finished in the cellar two years running. He won immediately. He was far more successful than Ben or Chaim. The record speaks for itself.

 

Bloom is a minor league talent compared to DD’s record.

[notin]

Dombrowski " walked into " a situation where the Sox had finished in the cellar two years running. He won immediately. He was far more successful than Ben or Chaim. The record speaks for itself.

 

Another way to look at it that’s far more accurate.

 

He took over a team that won 78 games and turned it into a 93 game winner. And did so by handing out the biggest contracts in team history.

 

The team won 15 more games. It’s a good improvement but not the historic one you keep trying to sell it as. Of course Rick Porcello alone won 13 more on his way to the Cy Young…

[moonslav59]

And how many of them think Bloom is being cheap in spite of the $230mill payroll?

 

How many of them think Bloom chose to trade Betts? Or that Bloom should have negotiated more with Betts?

 

How many of them blame Bloom for Sale still being on the roster?

 

To me, it's all about the winter spending budget vs how much came off the books each winter. It's not so much about the $230M budget, which by the way, included player pension money and dead money. Bloom has increased his percent of the total budget with his signings, but has anyone noticed how much of Bloom's money goes beyond 2022 or 2023?

 

2023: Story, Barnes, Whitlock & Kike

 

2024: Story & Whitlock

 

When is the last time we saw that?

 

To just point at the $230 number and imply Bloom is spending as much as past GMs is misleading.

[Old Red]

Another way to look at it that’s far more accurate.

 

He took over a team that won 78 games and turned it into a 93 game winner. And did so by handing out the biggest contracts in team history.

 

The team won 15 more games. It’s a good improvement but not the historic one you keep trying to sell it as. Of course Rick Porcello alone won 13 more on his way to the Cy Young…

 

If a real poll went out today in all of RSN asking who they would rather have as GM of the Boston Red Sox Bloom, or DD I bet DD would win in a landslide.

[moonslav59]

Deny, deny, accuse. This is Bloom’s watch now and has been for 3 years, and you can make all the excuses you want for him, but he’s in charge, and he responsible. DD is gone, and is in charge of a team that just went to the WS. I wish the Red Sox had someone like that. Oh wait they did, and now they don’t. Sad, but true.

 

Um, the 2020 team did not "just go the World Series." The 2019 team was 84-78 and finished the season going 25-31. Then, the new GM was forced to trade the cornerstone of the team and Price while also losing Porcello.

 

For someone who values the pen, this was the 2019 pen listed by most IP from the pen:

 

Walden

Workman

Barnes

Brasier

Brewer

Taylor

Hembree

Velazquez

Weber

DHern

Josh Smith

Cashner

Shawaryn

 

You can talk 3 years all you want, and it's a valid point, but context matters, and the team Bloom was handed was not close to the 2018 team. (Kimbrel & Kelly and others were gone before 2019, too.)

 

 

[Bellhorn04]

Dave Dombrowski was GM of a team that lost 119 games in 2003.

 

Blaming him for that would obviously be idiotic.

 

Old schoolers who say you're always what your record says are not really using much common sense.

[a700hitter]

You want Click? Really? The guy is Chaim Bloom Redux!!!

 

Click started out in the Rays organization with Bloom in 2005. Both were writers for Baseball Prospectus. Both are deep into analytics.

 

The differences?

 

Click has shown he prefers to just let free agents walk. Don’t like what the Sox got for Betts or Vazquez? Compare it to the Astros haul for Correa, Cole and Springer.

 

Also Click walked into a GREAT SITUATION. The Astros had a slew talented pitching prospects whose only flaw was they drew less press than the hitting prospects in Toronto. And the guy who built it all got canned for cheating - not for doing anything bad to the budget out the farm. But for letting players slap trash cans.

 

But the grass is always greener, I guess…

No, about the grass being greener, but yes to back to back World Series. If Click is just like Bloom, he does it much better.

[a700hitter]

Dave Dombrowski was GM of a team that lost 119 games in 2003.

 

Blaming him for that would obviously be idiotic.

 

Old schoolers who say you're always what your record says are not really using much common sense.

And if DD had done that over the course of his career, he’d have been out of Baseball along time ago.

[moonslav59]

Tell me why, tell me why, tell me why. Sale’s bad DD contract prevented the Red Sox from being a winning in the postseason team last year? Why are we focusing just on Sale’s contract? Is that all you got?

 

Well, there was the Betts contract we had to tarde away. There was the Price contract we ended up paying half of. There was the Porcello contract we were not allowed to replace. There was a near empty ML ready farm that produced just Houck dince mid 2017. We brought all this up, so it's not like mentioning Sale means that is all we are focused on. The whole picture was bleak after 2019. Personally, I don't even think that is up for debate, but I don't want to sound authoritative.

[moonslav59]

If a real poll went out today in all of RSN asking who they would rather have as GM of the Boston Red Sox Bloom, or DD I bet DD would win in a landslide.

 

Do you really think, if DD was handed the budget and demands of trading Betts & price, we'd have a better team and results, right now?

 

I'll answer, I'm not sure, but I do think Bloom is more of the type of GM needed to rebuild and find gems in the rough than DD, but that's just my opinion. I have no way of knowing.

[notin]

If a real poll went out today in all of RSN asking who they would rather have as GM of the Boston Red Sox Bloom, or DD I bet DD would win in a landslide.

 

Probably. Not sure why popular opinion means anything here, though.

 

And would they still like him when the team was filled with bad, bloated, immovable contracts on aging and injured players?

 

His MO in Boston was “spend heavy and deal away the farm.” That’s not always a good MO, and it’s pacing itself out of the game. 7 years ago, the contract he gave Price at age 31 was ridiculous. Nowadays, it would be an obstacle. But not as bad as the 10-12 year deals players want.

 

If DD can adapt and not dole out those mega deals (save for special talents), he’ll do much better for Philadelphia.

 

Of course, if DD was the genius his fan base keeps reminding me he is, why didn’t he extend Betts?

[notin]

Tell me why, tell me why, tell me why. Sale’s bad DD contract prevented the Red Sox from being a winning in the postseason team last year? Why are we focusing just on Sale’s contract? Is that all you got?

 

So.. not answering, I see.

 

Just another guy with all the answers. Until he gets asked for them…

[a700hitter]

Probably. Not sure why popular opinion means anything here, though.

 

And would they still like him when the team was filled with bad, bloated, immovable contracts on aging and injured players?

 

His MO in Boston was “spend heavy and deal away the farm.” That’s not always a good MO, and it’s pacing itself out of the game. 7 years ago, the contract he gave Price at age 31 was ridiculous. Nowadays, it would be an obstacle. But not as bad as the 10-12 year deals players want.

 

If DD can adapt and not dole out those mega deals (save for special talents), he’ll do much better for Philadelphia.

 

Of course, if DD was the genius his fan base keeps reminding me he is, why didn’t he extend Betts?

Those bloated contracts with almost zero return like Sandoval’s and HanRam’s.

 

edit: And I forgot Mr 0 return Rusney Castillo!

Edited November 26, 2022 by a700hitter

[dgalehouse]

Another way to look at it that’s far more accurate.

 

He took over a team that won 78 games and turned it into a 93 game winner. And did so by handing out the biggest contracts in team history.

 

The team won 15 more games. It’s a good improvement but not the historic one you keep trying to sell it as. Of course Rick Porcello alone won 13 more on his way to the Cy Young…

 

He took over a last place team and won the division. Then repeated. Then three peated. Then won the brass ring. To me, that was pretty good. You prefer to look at the traded " prospects " and the money . I guess it takes all kinds of fans to make Red Sox Nation.

[Old Red]

So.. not answering, I see.

 

Just another guy with all the answers. Until he gets asked for them…

 

If Bloom is as good as you thinks he is he should be able to fix all the problems you keep bring up, and that the Red Sox are in such bad shape. On the other if he’s not good like I think he is it will be Gloom, and Doom will be brought by Bloom.

[notin]

Those bloated contracts with almost zero return like Sandoval’s and HanRam’s.

 

DD did get those and Rusney as well.

 

But Henry didn’t let it impact what DD got to spend. Maybe he trusted him more? Maybe it was the pathetic 2014-15 run.

 

But when Cherington took over, the budget was so tight we had to deal Marco Scutaro just to sign Cody Ross, hardly a household name himself. DD never had that level of budget scrutiny.

 

I think DD is the only Sox GM in the Luxury Tax Era that Henry never made reset the limit…

[Larry Cook]

4 step plan to get back to the playoffs:

1.)sign Correa (replace bogey and has a great relationship with Cora);

2.) sign stndergard and kubler (starting pitching depth)

3.) trade for a power right fielder that can play good defense

4.) secure a closer for the bullpen

[Hugh2]

And, although many of the highly ranked prospects he traded away did not amount to much, he had the ability to trade many of them, keeping Devers, and acquire guys like Sale, Kimbrell, PomPom, Nate, Pearce and Nunez, among others. I counted 20 prospects that were at one time or another a top 20 prospect on soxprospects,com he traded away. Granted, some were no longer top 20, but he also traded away Shaw and a few others.

 

(I'm not complaining, but just pointing out the stack he was handed that enabled him to acquire a guy like Sale and to a lesser extend Kimbrell. Bloom did not have that choice, even if they let him trade top prospects away.

 

Bloom didn’t have that choice because they had a 45 million dollar payroll. In a year he happened to beat DD and his Red Sox. John Henry dreamed what a guy who could do that could do with a 200 million dollar payroll.

 

Here we are 3 years later, the farm built back up and $100 million coming off the books. If people think John Henry didn’t bring Bloom in to see what he can do from here on out the haven’t been paying attention.

 

You can disagree with it, you can hate it, but this has been what it’s all about.

[Old Red]

He took over a last place team and won the division. Then repeated. Then three peated. Then won the brass ring. To me, that was pretty good. You prefer to look at the traded " prospects " and the money . I guess it takes all kinds of fans to make Red Sox Nation.

 

I’m sure poor, poor pitiful me Chaim Bloom knew all about having to trade Mookie, and the bad contracts, budget restrictions, and a not to generous allowance he would be getting from daddy JH when he took the job, so nothing should have been a surprise to him including the scrutiny from the media, and fans alike.

[moonslav59]

No, about the grass being greener, but yes to back to back World Series. If Click is just like Bloom, he does it much better.

 

He was handed a vastly different circumstances. Does that not matter, at all?

[moonslav59]

I’m sure poor, poor pitiful me Chaim Bloom knew all about having to trade Mookie, and the bad contracts, budget restrictions, and a not to generous allowance he would be getting from daddy JH when he took the job, so nothing should have been a surprise to him including the scrutiny from the media, and fans alike.

 

He's not poor or pitiful, and yes, he knew what he was hired to do, and at least on paper, he has fulfilled his number one priority: build up the farm and 40 man roster foundation to the point where we needed fewer slots to fill while setting up the budget to now have the funds to do it.

 

I'm sure he's not happy about 2 last place finishes and felt the 2022 team was strong enough to make the playoffs and not finish last, but the team failed, this year. Blame injuries. Blame non moves. Blame the budget. Blame Bloom, but when I look at the totality of moves he made since the end of 2021, it looks like a net plus, but the wins did not indicate those improvements.

[moonslav59]

Bloom didn’t have that choice because they had a 45 million dollar payroll. In a year he happened to beat DD and his Red Sox. John Henry dreamed what a guy who could do that could do with a 200 million dollar payroll.

 

Here we are 3 years later, the farm built back up and $100 million coming off the books. If people think John Henry didn’t bring Bloom in to see what he can do from here on out the haven’t been paying attention.

 

You can disagree with it, you can hate it, but this has been what it’s all about.

 

Indeed, and to think DD would have done better within the same constraints is pure speculation and wishful thinking. Maybe he'd do better than Richards, Perez, Ottavino, Marwin, Andriese and Paxton, but there would have been no large and long deals and maybe no Whitlock, Schreiber, Refsnyder, Kike '21, Kelly, German, Wacha, Strahm, Hill, McGuire and this heep of new prospects added via trades.

 

This is Bloom's legacy moment. The whole 3 years was designed to make 2023 the beginning or the next "window."

 

On paper, things look optimistic, but we need to start seeing results.

[notin]

If Bloom is as good as you thinks he is he should be able to fix all the problems you keep bring up, and that the Red Sox are in such bad shape. On the other if he’s not good like I think he is it will be Gloom, and Doom will be brought by Bloom.

 

I think he will be fine. But it didn’t happen overnight.

 

This is the big off-season for him…

[notin]

He was handed a vastly different circumstances. Does that not matter, at all?

 

Click has been a lot less active than Bloom. Most likely because he didn’t need to be…