A Realistic View at 2023: Part I

[moonslav59]

The original deal was a 3 team deal with dodgers and twins, dodgers get Betts, Price and money, Redsox get Verdugo and Brusdar Graterol from twins and twins get Kenta Maeda,

 

Yes, but that doesn't change the views on Wong.

[notin]

The original deal was a 3 team deal with dodgers and twins, dodgers get Betts, Price and money, Redsox get Verdugo and Brusdar Graterol from twins and twins get Kenta Maeda,

 

Exactly. No Connor Wong.

 

And I still say they should have kept Graterol…

[moonslav59]

Exactly. No Connor Wong.

 

And I still say they should have kept Graterol…

 

Indeed, and not just as a hindsight opinion, but it hardly matters.

[Bellhorn04]

Indeed, and not just as a hindsight opinion, but it hardly matters.

 

Graterol matters a lot to notin.

[moonslav59]

Graterol matters a lot to notin.

 

Tylenol should matter more.

[Bellhorn04]

Tylenol should matter more.

 

Graterol has a good arm, of course, but he has a career fWAR of 1.6 and bWAR of 0.9, so it's not like Bloom passed on a guy who's killing it. It amuses me how notin never fails to mention him. We all have our little obsessions.

[Bellhorn04]

The unanswered question on that trade is whether Wong is any good. Hopefully he is.

[mvp 78]

The unanswered question on that trade is whether Wong is any good. Hopefully he is.

 

Catchers take a while to develop. Word is that he's a lot better behind the plate now and can stick there long term. His bat still has upside.

 

Could he be a starter? Sure. I think it's more likely that Brannon, Hickey or someone else is the future Sox starter there.

[moonslav59]

The unanswered question on that trade is whether Wong is any good. Hopefully he is.

 

There is also still time for Verdugo to add enough value to the trade balance sheet.

 

We also need to keep these two things in perspective:

 

1. Betts had one year of team control left, and it turned out to be a 60 game season.

 

2. We also dumped half Price's salary in the trade.

 

It's all to easy to just think: all we got for Betts was Verdugo and Wong, but it wasn't 11 years of Betts, and dumping Price meant we didn't have to dump Bogey or JD or Nate, or we'd have no Verdugo.

[Bellhorn04]

As for Graterol, if anything it appears Bloom was 100% right to be concerned about his medicals. He only pitched 33.1 innings in 2021. Last year he pitched 49.2. He didn't pitch between July 10 and August 22, or between August 28 and September 22.

[Bellhorn04]

There is also still time for Verdugo to add enough value to the trade balance sheet.

 

We also need to keep these two things in perspective:

 

1. Betts had one year of team control left, and it turned out to be a 60 game season.

 

2. We also dumped half Price's salary in the trade.

 

It's all to easy to just think: all we got for Betts was Verdugo and Wong, but it wasn't 11 years of Betts, and dumping Price meant we didn't have to dump Bogey or JD or Nate, or we'd have no Verdugo.

 

I'll say it again and I'll say it forever. Bloom did fine on the trade, taking into account the salary relief. If you want to point the finger of blame about losing Betts, JH is your guy.

[moonslav59]

Catchers take a while to develop. Word is that he's a lot better behind the plate now and can stick there long term. His bat still has upside.

 

Could he be a starter? Sure. I think it's more likely that Brannon, Hickey or someone else is the future Sox starter there.

 

The other thing is, if you are good enough, defensively, you just have to hit .650.675 to stick around, a long time, but if he can just get over .700, he may be a starter for a long time.

[moonslav59]

I'll say it again and I'll say it forever. Bloom did fine on the trade, taking into account the salary relief. If you want to point the finger of blame about losing Betts, JH is your guy.

 

I totally agree, and this is a fine example of how saying this does not make us a "Bloom apologist" or whatever defending him on this is being thrown out there. It's what any GM who was here before the 2020 season would have been facing. If reports are true about what other offers might have been out there, nothing else looked significantly better, and certainly not to the level of a difference maker.

 

It should be a GM neutral issue.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

When Bloom first made his betts, he was graterol over… then it seemed cool to get downs, but that turned out all wong. Chaim maeda bed… now the Nation has to sleep in it.

 

Baby, baby – verdugo our love go?

[Old Red]

I totally agree, and this is a fine example of how saying this does not make us a "Bloom apologist" or whatever defending him on this is being thrown out there. It's what any GM who was here before the 2020 season would have been facing. If reports are true about what other offers might have been out there, nothing else looked significantly better, and certainly not to the level of a difference maker.

 

It should be a GM neutral issue.

 

Totally disagree that this Was a good trade. Bloom was given mostly D’s, or failed from all the pundits, and publications at the time, and with Jeter being a failed SUSPECT I’m sure the grades would be even worse now.

[notin]

Totally disagree that this Was a good trade. Bloom was given mostly D’s, or failed from all the pundits, and publications at the time, and with Jeter being a failed SUSPECT I’m sure the grades would be even worse now.

 

If the Sox had the option of keeping Betts, I’d be more inclined to agree. But once negotiations failed, money was instead spent on Bogaerts and Sale, and ownership decreed getting under the tax limit, the idea of keeping Betts completely vanished. Given the limited offers, the Sox chose the best option of the two.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Totally disagree that this Was a good trade. Bloom was given mostly D’s, or failed from all the pundits, and publications at the time, and with Jeter being a failed SUSPECT I’m sure the grades would be even worse now.

 

How many times do we have to repeat this: Bloom got the best return possible for 12 years of Mookie Betts!

[Old Red]

Anybody why did all the pundits, and publications give Bloom such bad grades on the trade?

[Bellhorn04]

Totally disagree that this Was a good trade. Bloom was given mostly D’s, or failed from all the pundits, and publications at the time, and with Jeter being a failed SUSPECT I’m sure the grades would be even worse now.

 

Yes, hindsight is always a perfect 20/20 on prospects/suspects.

 

Price sucked the last 2 years, so where is Bloom's hindsight upgrade for that? LOL

[Bellhorn04]

How many times do we have to repeat this: Bloom got the best return possible for 12 years of Mookie Betts!

 

I think Henry is the guy who should have realized the Dodgers were the team in the best position to extend Mookie...

[moonslav59]

Totally disagree that this Was a good trade. Bloom was given mostly D’s, or failed from all the pundits, and publications at the time, and with Jeter being a failed SUSPECT I’m sure the grades would be even worse now.

 

Of course you disagree. BTW, I never said it was a "good trade, " but only that other options were not much better. You took that to mean I was saying it was a "good trade."

 

No doubt, Downs sucked and was a big part of that trade. No doubt, it sucked trading Betts away. I was hoping we signed him for 14 years, but that was not a choice.

 

One question is, how much value is 60 games of Betts worth, minus 3 years of half-Price?

 

[moonslav59]

Anybody why did all the pundits, and publications give Bloom such bad grades on the trade?

 

There you go, again.

[Bellhorn04]

One question is, how much value is 60 games of Betts worth, minus 3 years of half-Price?

 

Price opted out of 2020, of course, so no one paid him for that year...it only muddies the waters trying to account for the pandemic factor.

 

The ultimate what-if is that with no pandemic, Betts might not have signed that deal with the Dodgers.

[moonslav59]

Price opted out of 2020, of course, so no one paid him for that year...it only muddies the waters trying to account for the pandemic factor.

 

The ultimate what-if is that with no pandemic, Betts might not have signed that deal with the Dodgers.

 

We did pay for 2 years of half-Price.

 

Add that to what Betts made, and what our budget was in 2020.

 

Don't count Betts in 2021 or 2022, but count $16M for Price for each season.

 

So, keep Betts & Price and trade Bogey & Nate or JD and ____?

[moonslav59]

MLBTR did a poll on the trade:

 

Sox Grade:

 

30% C

27% B

18% D

13% A

12% F

 

Many "pundits" gave it a "C" or "D," at the time.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

MLBTR did a poll on the trade:

 

Sox Grade:

 

30% C

27% B

18% D

13% A

12% F

 

Many "pundits" gave it a "C" or "D," at the time.

 

The varied grading scale most likely reflects positives like getting rid of David at any price, and getting anything for Mookie before he fled.

 

But could anyone give the Dodgers less than an A+? In 2020, Betts only led baseball in WAR again and LA to a world title.

[mvp 78]

As for Graterol, if anything it appears Bloom was 100% right to be concerned about his medicals. He only pitched 33.1 innings in 2021. Last year he pitched 49.2. He didn't pitch between July 10 and August 22, or between August 28 and September 22.

 

But have I told you the tale of Jeter Downs?

[moonslav59]

The varied grading scale most likely reflects positives like getting rid of David at any price, and getting anything for Mookie before he fled.

 

But could anyone give the Dodgers less than an A+? In 2020, Betts only led baseball in WAR again and LA to a world title.

 

The thing is, it's hard to not think of the trade as just 60 games + the postseason from Betts, and from the Dodger perspective, trading for him gave them the inside track on extending him, so it looks like a clear A+, so far.

 

There is no way I can look at a trade at face value and say trading Betts for Verdugo was good for the Sox, but when you look at all the details and other choices out there, I'm not sure we could have done any better or significantly better. That still doesn't mean it was "good trade," but it was a necessary one.

[mvp 78]

Totally disagree that this Was a good trade. Bloom was given mostly D’s, or failed from all the pundits, and publications at the time, and with Jeter being a failed SUSPECT I’m sure the grades would be even worse now.

 

I don't believe this is the case at all. Please provide supporting evidence.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

The thing is, it's hard to not think of the trade as just 60 games + the postseason from Betts, and from the Dodger perspective, trading for him gave them the inside track on extending him, so it looks like a clear A+, so far.

 

If Mookie wasn't any good for the next decade, I'd bet every longtime Dodgers fan you meet will still say the trade was worth it, just for that one World Series title.