5/31 Reds @ SOX

[notin]

Listening to the radio this morning, and the first thing being talked about was the Red Sox bullpen, and specifically the back end of the BP. What was said is that Whitlock is just an average starter, and long story short Whitlock should be the closer, and Houck should be the setup man. Bloom, and Cora have done nothing to fix the BP, and here we are 50 games into the season with a losing record. Like I keep saying on this forum that I’m in the vast minority that wants Whitlock to close, but outside this forum the majority that I hear want Whitlock to close. Very interesting don’t you think? Like I keep saying Red Sox Nation is very big, and usually when I hear different venues the story is completely different kind of like Fox, and CNN, but like I keep saying EVERYONE is entitled to an opinion.

 

I disagree that Whitlock is an average starter. He’s been treated with kid gloves because of his injury history and career IP numbers, but his only bad start was against Seattle, where he gave up 5 of the 14 ER he’s allowed in that role.

 

Houck on the other hand, is just being used in a way I will never understand. His role should be expanded into more games and higher leverage situations. If the Sale injury bumped Whitlock to the rotation, that’s fine. But the continuous use of Houck in this fashion while Diekman, Robles and Barnes flummox through high leverage situations seems inexcusable to me…

[Old Red]

I disagree that Whitlock is an average starter. He’s been treated with kid gloves because of his injury history and career IP numbers, but his only bad start was against Seattle, where he gave up 5 of the 14 ER he’s allowed in that role.

 

Houck on the other hand, is just being used in a way I will never understand. His role should be expanded into more games and higher leverage situations. If the Sale injury bumped Whitlock to the rotation, that’s fine. But the continuous use of Houck in this fashion while Diekman, Robles and Barnes flummox through high leverage situations seems inexcusable to me…

I was just reporting what other fans are saying about Whitlock, and there are lots of them out there that think he should be the closer.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Listening to the radio this morning, and the first thing being talked about was the Red Sox bullpen, and specifically the back end of the BP. What was said is that Whitlock is just an average starter, and long story short Whitlock should be the closer, and Houck should be the setup man. Bloom, and Cora have done nothing to fix the BP, and here we are 50 games into the season with a losing record. Like I keep saying on this forum that I’m in the vast minority that wants Whitlock to close, but outside this forum the majority that I hear want Whitlock to close. Very interesting don’t you think? Like I keep saying Red Sox Nation is very big, and usually when I hear different venues the story is completely different kind of like Fox, and CNN, but like I keep saying EVERYONE is entitled to an opinion.

 

At least here we don't continually make crap up that viewers automatically believe as gospel -- mainly, because there are several stat checkers ready to immediately disprove any kind of false data-driven decisions. We're all allowed opinions regarding issues like the bullpen, but facts are facts, and no one really knows if Whitlock's best role is as closer.

 

We do know that the Red Sox were a first-place team through the first half of 2021 with Whitlock as a set-up man and Barnes as an All-Star closer... In '21, Whitlock's ERA in the 8th inning was 0.56, while in the 9th it was 2.89. For OPS allowed: .544 in the 8th vs. .797 in the 9th. Then again, he was also better in the 6th inning than he was in the 7th (source: bb-ref splits).

 

Moon's long post is right on about the Red Sox needing to recruit defined pen men for at least the 7th, 8th and 9th... which even pitching coach Dave Bush recently agreed was ideal (hint to roster-building CBOs).

[moonslav59]

At least here we don't continually make crap up that viewers automatically believe as gospel -- mainly, because there are several stat checkers ready to immediately disprove any kind of false data-driven decisions. We're all allowed opinions regarding issues like the bullpen, but facts are facts, and no one really knows if Whitlock's best role is as closer.

 

We do know that the Red Sox were a first-place team through the first half of 2021 with Whitlock as a set-up man and Barnes as an All-Star closer... In '21, Whitlock's ERA in the 8th inning was 0.56, while in the 9th it was 2.89. For OPS allowed: .544 in the 8th vs. .797 in the 9th. Then again, he was also better in the 6th inning than he was in the 7th (source: bb-ref splits).

 

Moon's long post is right on about the Red Sox needing to recruit defined pen men for at least the 7th, 8th and 9th... which even pitching coach Dave Bush recently agreed was ideal (hint to roster-building CBOs).

 

We lost most of our games long before the 9th inning, so far this year. We're 23-3 when leading to start the 9th.

 

Sure, a great closer would have helped us win a few more. Maybe the guys we used as closers would have done much better in set-up roles. Maybe not.

 

Who do we not sign, if we had signed an elite closer?

 

Who do we start and use in long relief, if we moved Whitlock to closer, and how well would that guy have done?

 

It's not a simple equation. There are many moving parts to a team.

[Maxbialystock]

And despite your other posts about 2021, the Red Sox bullpen also stunk last postseason. It's the main reason Boston fell two wins short of the World Series. Virtually every reliever got lit up, so much so that Cora had to try using starters as closers. Both dramatic walkoff wins vs. Tampa were made possible because the pen coughed up late leads.

 

The Sox bats were shut down at the end of the ALCS, but Boston could've won the first four straight if the bullpen didn't lose two of them. The turning point in Game Four came after they blew another late lead and Cora tried using Eovaldi at the end. He lost, they lost, and the team that made deals for actual good relievers at the trade deadline won the pennant. Then the club with the best bullpen won it all.

 

My Sox 2021 postseason comments were entirely focused on saves. And my point was that saves were irrelevant to the fact that the Sox surprised almost everyone by beating the Yankees in the Wild Card and the Rays 3-1 in the ALDS--and not looking too shabby in the early stages of the ALCS vs. the Astros.

 

Writ large, the Sox pitching staff did not look so hot. Eovaldi's ERA was 4.79, ERod's 4.97, Houck's 5.23, Robles 5.06. Chris Sale started 3 games and finished with an ERA of 8.00.

 

On the other hand, Pivetta's ERA for 13 innings (mostly in relief) was 2.63, and Whitlock's (all in relief) for 8.1 innings was 2.16. Ottavino 4 innings, ERA 2.25.

 

About game 1 of the ALCS. Sale started and lasted 2.2 freaking innings, so I pin that loss completely on him--Mr. Stinker.

 

As for game 4 of the ALCS, I blame that loss 100% on the abysmal hitting after the 1st inning (in which the Sox scored their only 2 runs). Pivetta went 5, giving up 1 run. Taylor and Ottavino combined for 1 scoreless innings, and probably our best reliever last year, Whitlock, came in for 2 innings and gave up the tying run. Then the wheels came off.

[Bellhorn04]

I was just reporting what other fans are saying about Whitlock, and there are lots of them out there that think he should be the closer.

 

Anyone who has already decided that Whitlock is an average starter after a few MLB starts is kind of a bozo.

[Old Red]

Anyone who has already decided that Whitlock is an average starter after a few MLB starts is kind of a bozo.

 

The old fall back start the name calling. I don’t think anyone knows at this point how good Whitlock can be, or what he would be best at, but that’s just my opinion.

[Old Red]

At least here we don't continually make crap up that viewers automatically believe as gospel -- mainly, because there are several stat checkers ready to immediately disprove any kind of false data-driven decisions. We're all allowed opinions regarding issues like the bullpen, but facts are facts, and no one really knows if Whitlock's best role is as closer.

 

We do know that the Red Sox were a first-place team through the first half of 2021 with Whitlock as a set-up man and Barnes as an All-Star closer... In '21, Whitlock's ERA in the 8th inning was 0.56, while in the 9th it was 2.89. For OPS allowed: .544 in the 8th vs. .797 in the 9th. Then again, he was also better in the 6th inning than he was in the 7th (source: bb-ref splits).

 

Moon's long post is right on about the Red Sox needing to recruit defined pen men for at least the 7th, 8th and 9th... which even pitching coach Dave Bush recently agreed was ideal (hint to roster-building CBOs).

 

What Bush was doing was calling Bloom out for not having reliable arms to do those jobs, and I agree.

[Bellhorn04]

The old fall back start the name calling. I don’t think anyone knows at this point how good Whitlock can be, or what he would be best at, but that’s just my opinion.

 

I was talking about those 'other fans'.

[mvp 78]

I was talking about those 'other fans'.

 

Radio show callers... The lowest of the low...

[Old Red]

Radio show callers... The lowest of the low...

 

And how are they different from forum goers? Fans are fans.

[Old Red]

I was talking about those 'other fans'.

 

Why , because they have different opinions?

[mvp 78]

And how are they different from forum goers? Fans are fans.

 

It's a verifiable fact that these abhorrent individuals were raised eating products packaged with Contamination Hazard Urban Disposal.

[moonslav59]

Radio show callers... The lowest of the low...

 

...and the listeners of the lowest of the lows?

[mvp 78]

And how are they different from forum goers? Fans are fans.

 

1. Procrastinators who are ignoring something else they are supposed to be doing while at work.

2. Retired old farts whose wives are glad they have something that keeps them out of their hair for a few minutes.

3. A school teacher who inexplicably sticks around here for no rhyme or reason.

[mvp 78]

...and the listeners of the lowest of the lows?

 

Who am I to judge? I listen to podcasts.

[Old Red]

...and the listeners of the lowest of the lows?

 

From all the millions,and millions of Rock’s fans we thank you for the kind words.

[Old Red]

Who am I to judge? I listen to podcasts.

 

Did you ever listen to Eddie Andleman, or the Sports Babe?

[harmony]

Anyone who has already decided that Whitlock is an average starter after a few MLB starts is kind of a bozo.

To be fair: Garrett Whitlock has made 53 professional starts and in December 2020 was left exposed in the Rule 5 draft.

 

Most teams would be thrilled to land an "average starter" in the Rule 5 draft.

Edited June 1, 2022 by harmony

[Maxbialystock]

The old fall back start the name calling. I don’t think anyone knows at this point how good Whitlock can be, or what he would be best at, but that’s just my opinion.

 

OK, fine. No name-calling.

 

That said, I do not understand why you are so convinced that Whitlock would be a terrific closer when he has never demonstrated that skill. You also doubt his ability to start even though he never started a game until this season, which is his second season pitching at the MLB level. So far his WAR is +.8 (4th best on the Sox) and his ERA 3.49, to say nothing of his really good repertoire of pitches. Plus--and this will probably come as a shock to you--his manager and pitching coach are far more expert about pitching potential than any of us.

 

But my big disagreement with you is the notion that no MLB team and especially not the Sox can succeed--win games--without a top notch closer. You have made this argument the centerpiece of arguing that Cora is an idiot and Bloom incompetent.

 

Meanwhile, you ignore the overall weakness of the bullpen, the inconsistent hitting, the costly errors, and the occasional lousy starts by an otherwise semi-decent rotation (with Sale still on the IL).

[Maxbialystock]

The old fall back start the name calling. I don’t think anyone knows at this point how good Whitlock can be, or what he would be best at, but that’s just my opinion.

 

OK, fine. No name-calling.

 

That said, I do not understand why you are so convinced that Whitlock would be a terrific closer when he has never demonstrated that skill. You also doubt his ability to start even though he never started a game until this season, which is his second season pitching at the MLB level. So far his WAR is +.8 (4th best on the Sox) and his ERA 3.49, to say nothing of his really good repertoire of pitches. Plus--and this will probably come as a shock to you--his manager and pitching coach are far more expert about pitching potential than any of us.

 

But my big disagreement with you is the notion that no MLB team and especially not the Sox can succeed--win games--without a top notch closer. You have made this argument the centerpiece of implying that Cora is an idiot and Bloom incompetent.

 

Meanwhile, you ignore the overall weakness of the bullpen, the inconsistent hitting, the costly errors, and the occasional lousy starts by an otherwise semi-decent rotation (with Sale still on the IL).

[notin]

I was just reporting what other fans are saying about Whitlock, and there are lots of them out there that think he should be the closer.

 

And there are lots of fans out there who think left-handed pitchers have a natural biomechanical advantage because they throw across their bodies.

 

I’m sure Whitlock would be a terrific closer. But this is probably true for nearly every starting pitcher in MLB.

 

But to call him an average starter - as if that is somehow a detriment - after 7 career starts is extremely premature. Even if it ends up being true, it’s an uncertainty at this point…

[moonslav59]

I was just reporting what other fans are saying about Whitlock, and there are lots of them out there that think he should be the closer.

 

It's not just what other fans are reporting. You've been on the Whitlock as closer bandwagon for months. Stop hiding behind others who agree.

Edited June 1, 2022 by moonslav59

[mvp 78]

Did you ever listen to Eddie Andleman, or the Sports Babe?

 

I may be old, but I'm not Sports Huddle old.

[Old Red]

OK, fine. No name-calling.

 

That said, I do not understand why you are so convinced that Whitlock would be a terrific closer when he has never demonstrated that skill. You also doubt his ability to start even though he never started a game until this season, which is his second season pitching at the MLB level. So far his WAR is +.8 (4th best on the Sox) and his ERA 3.49, to say nothing of his really good repertoire of pitches. Plus--and this will probably come as a shock to you--his manager and pitching coach are far more expert about pitching potential than any of us.

 

But my big disagreement with you is the notion that no MLB team and especially not the Sox can succeed--win games--without a top notch closer. You have made this argument the centerpiece of implying that Cora is an idiot and Bloom incompetent.

 

Meanwhile, you ignore the overall weakness of the bullpen, the inconsistent hitting, the costly errors, and the occasional lousy starts by an otherwise semi-decent rotation (with Sale still on the IL).

 

#1 I never said Cora was an idiot although he has made some dumb decisions like letting Arroyo bat in the ninth inning last Sat when the league leading hitter JD sat on the bench. I also never said that Whitlock would be a terrific closer, but based on what he did last year I thought he should be given the chance, and if he had I feel the Red Sox would have a better record right now, because I think he could do the job. I’ve also said in an earlier post that no one knows how good Whitlock can be, and what role he could be best at. I’ve also said many times that making Whitlock the closer has nothing to do with his ability to start, but with Barnes being a shell of his former self Whitlock would be more valuable in the pen. The fact that the Red Sox lead the league in blown saves, which is 12 blown chances out of 20 save opportunities says to me they need a closer, and yes I know all the blown saves haven’t been in the 9th inning, but they have been tied, or ahead in the 8th, and 9 inning in 8 losses. Now It’s no secret I’m not a Bloom fan, but what has Cora, and Bloom done to fix the bullpen? Shuttled Bra Man, Sour Man, and Valdez back, and fourth from Worcester. What haven’t they done is try Whitlock, or Houck at the back end of the pen.inconsistent hitting has been a problem, and errors in big situations also has hurt, but so hasn’t blowing leads when the Red Sox have had them late in games.

[Old Red]

It's not just what other fans are reporting. You've been on the Whitlock as closer bandwagon for months. Stop hiding behind others who agree.

 

I’m not hiding, but just stating a fact that there are lots of others like me out there in Red Sox Nation who think that Whitlock should be the closer, and if you got out to just being on here you would hear, and see that.

[Bellhorn04]

I’m not hiding, but just stating a fact that there are lots of others like me out there in Red Sox Nation who think that Whitlock should be the closer, and if you got out to just being on here you would hear, and see that.

 

None of us here care about those fans "out there", so you might as well give it up with that.

[Old Red]

None of us here care about those fans "out there", so you might as well give it up with that.

 

Just pointing out that the opinions on are are not the end all be all. Has anyone figured out that no opinions have been changed, or is going to change yet?

[moonslav59]

I’m not hiding, but just stating a fact that there are lots of others like me out there in Red Sox Nation who think that Whitlock should be the closer, and if you got out to just being on here you would hear, and see that.

 

Why assume I think there are not others. I actually like the idea, too.

 

I think Houck should have been tried, first, but I've agreed on one of them being tried as the closer since opening day.

 

Again, I don't want to, need to or care to hear talk show yappers.

[Old Red]

Why assume I think there are not others. I actually like the idea, too.

 

I think Houck should have been tried, first, but I've agreed on one of them being tried as the closer since opening day.

 

Again, I don't want to, need to or care to hear talk show yappers.

 

Moon you don’t like to hear from me, and I’m one of the talk show yappers, and it pleases me so much that it bothers you so.much.