2022 Bullpen Thread

[mvp 78]

Did the Sox ever really want those guys to pitch and hit?

 

Rodriguez had a slew of plate appearances his first year and then none after. Ball had 0 players appearances in his first 5 minor league seasons…

 

Did Ball even state he wanted to hit on day 1?

[mvp 78]

There is just all kinds of possibilities that the Sox could go. Kike could come back to the IF. I don’t think Arryo at SS, and Story at 2B is the Same as the other way around, but at any rate you can’t count on Arroyo to stay on the field. Yes if you move Houck, and Whitlock to the rotation, which is not what I would do you would need more help for the pen. All I’m saying is that there are many ways for the team to go, and after last offseason like bringing JBJ back nothing Bloom, and Cora would do would surprise me.

 

In Kiké's limited time at SS, he's been pretty good for the Sox. I guess it depends on whether they can find a CF or a SS this offseason.

[mvp 78]

I'm curious, looking at my list and adjusting Arroyo to 2B and Story to SS, as could happen

 

Nope.

[moonslav59]

If Arroyo, and Story were at 2B/SS that would take that out as a need, and then it’s all P,P,P, and a RF.

 

I get that. If you think not replacing Bogey is less important than getting a closer, I would have to disagree, but if Arroyo can stay healthy and Story can play SS, it's not a dumb idea.

[Old Red]

I get that. If you think not replacing Bogey is less important than getting a closer, I would have to disagree, but if Arroyo can stay healthy and Story can play SS, it's not a dumb idea.

 

I’m just throwing out possibilities. If Bogey leaves a SS, or 2B is needed, but like you say where you spend more money on you have to skimp somewhere else.

[notin]

I'm curious, looking at my list and adjusting Arroyo to 2B and Story to SS, as could happen, how would you rank our top priorities? One can just say "pitcher" rather than solid SP or RP to cover for the unknown choices on where Whitlock and Houck will be slotted.

 

I'd think it might look like this: ( see 6 or 7 as essential, but maybe 4-5 are vital.)

 

1. P

2. SS/2B

3. P

4. P

5. RF (or RF/DH)

6. P

7. DH (or 1B/DH, if we get a legit RF'er)

8. Catcher

9. P or Utility

10. P

 

 

 

We assume Kike to CF. Or the adventurous think maybe Kike could go to 2b.

 

But what about SS?

 

If Story’s arm problems do prohibit a move back to SS, Kike is the best internal option for 2023, and his metrics at SS are pretty good, although to be fair, the encompass like 700 innings spread out over 8 seasons or something like that.

 

That would mean the Six need to add 2 outfielders, needed to replace Bogaerts and improve the offense. Nimmo can replace Bogaerts, or at least the overwhelming bulk of his production. But then who for the other OF?

[moonslav59]

We assume Kike to CF. Or the adventurous think maybe Kike could go to 2b.

 

But what about SS?

 

If Story’s arm problems do prohibit a move back to SS, Kike is the best internal option for 2023, and his metrics at SS are pretty good, although to be fair, the encompass like 700 innings spread out over 8 seasons or something like that.

 

That would mean the Six need to add 2 outfielders, needed to replace Bogaerts and improve the offense. Nimmo can replace Bogaerts, or at least the overwhelming bulk of his production. But then who for the other OF?

 

We can shuffle players around all we want, but we need 2 key players. SS and RF, IMO.

 

2B and RF, if we move Story to SS.

 

CF and RF, if we move Kike to SS or 2B w Story playing the other position.

 

The point I'm trying to make is whether a closer is a higher need than those 2 slots and SP'ing?

 

Where does closer fit on everyone's ranked high need areas?

 

Mine:

The vital:

1. P (I think ace)

2. SS

3. P (I prefer a solid #2 SP over closer, but it's close and depends on where we put Houck & Whitlock are placed)

4. RF

 

The near essential

5. P

6. 1B/DH or RF/DH (if we don't get a RF'er and keep Pham and Ref or get a platoon for Ref in RF)

7. P

 

Would be nice, but doubtful:

8. P

9. C

 

[mvp 78]

We assume Kike to CF. Or the adventurous think maybe Kike could go to 2b.

 

But what about SS?

 

If Story’s arm problems do prohibit a move back to SS, Kike is the best internal option for 2023, and his metrics at SS are pretty good, although to be fair, the encompass like 700 innings spread out over 8 seasons or something like that.

 

That would mean the Six need to add 2 outfielders, needed to replace Bogaerts and improve the offense. Nimmo can replace Bogaerts, or at least the overwhelming bulk of his production. But then who for the other OF?

 

His DRS over 600 career innings at SS is really good. If he could do that over the long haul, I'd be more than happy. Dude has a good glove.

[moonslav59]

His DRS over 600 career innings at SS is really good. If he could do that over the long haul, I'd be more than happy. Dude has a good glove.

 

600 innings is no joke, but personally, I'd prefer him in CF.

 

Probably finding a good CF'er is easier and cheaper than a SS, but there are a lot of SS on the FA market, this year.

 

Either way, we need a SS, 2Bman of CF'er depending on where Kike and Story play more than a closer, IMO.

 

It's Arroyo at 2B vs Whitlock or Houck as closer, IMO. Now, if Whitlock starts and Houck is the se3t-up man, maybe Arroy is better than Schreiber as the closer. I get that.

[notin]

600 innings is no joke, but personally, I'd prefer him in CF.

 

Probably finding a good CF'er is easier and cheaper than a SS, but there are a lot of SS on the FA market, this year.

 

Either way, we need a SS, 2Bman of CF'er depending on where Kike and Story play more than a closer, IMO.

 

It's Arroyo at 2B vs Whitlock or Houck as closer, IMO. Now, if Whitlock starts and Houck is the se3t-up man, maybe Arroy is better than Schreiber as the closer. I get that.

 

 

Well, while he is no Bradley/Kike/Coco Crisp with the glove, Brandon Nimmo is a CF. I won’t speak for him, but playing CF might be something he is looking for in a new contract. If so, I’d keep Kike as an infielder on the table.

 

Of course that still means the Sox need a RF. Presumably one found via the trade market. (Ramon Laureano?)

 

I think my personal choice would be Kike and Nimmo in CF and RF, not real adamant about which one plays where. And pry SS Ha-Seong Kim from the Padres where, if Tatis returns, he becomes a $7mill AAV utility infielder who was worth 3.5 fWAR last year. Even if you think the Padres will retain Snell (certainly possible), do they want or need or are they able to budget $15mill for a utility infielder the next two seasons? Especially if they want to extend Soto?

Edited October 3, 2022 by notin

[mvp 78]

600 innings is no joke, but personally, I'd prefer him in CF.

 

Probably finding a good CF'er is easier and cheaper than a SS, but there are a lot of SS on the FA market, this year.

 

Either way, we need a SS, 2Bman of CF'er depending on where Kike and Story play more than a closer, IMO.

 

It's Arroyo at 2B vs Whitlock or Houck as closer, IMO. Now, if Whitlock starts and Houck is the se3t-up man, maybe Arroy is better than Schreiber as the closer. I get that.

 

Who is available at CF that you'd want?

 

CENTER FIELDERS

 

Aaron Judge (31 years old, 14.8 WAR)

Brandon Nimmo (30, 7.4)

Kevin Kiermaier (33, 3.7) -- Club option

Odubel Herrera (31, 1.9)

Lorenzo Cain (37, 1.0)

Kevin Pillar (34, 0.8)

Jake Marisnick (31, 0.8)

Delino DeShields (29, 0.2)

Travis Jankowski (32, 0.2)

Billy Hamilton (32, 0.1)

Shogo Akiyama (34, -0.6)

Jackie Bradley Jr. (33, -1.9) -- Mutual option

[dgalehouse]

If you overhauled and significantly improved the bullpen, without doing anything else except signing Bogaerts, this would be a much better team. That should be the main focus.

[notin]

Who is available at CF that you'd want?

 

CENTER FIELDERS

 

Aaron Judge (31 years old, 14.8 WAR)

Brandon Nimmo (30, 7.4)

Kevin Kiermaier (33, 3.7) -- Club option

Odubel Herrera (31, 1.9)

Lorenzo Cain (37, 1.0)

Kevin Pillar (34, 0.8)

Jake Marisnick (31, 0.8)

Delino DeShields (29, 0.2)

Travis Jankowski (32, 0.2)

Billy Hamilton (32, 0.1)

Shogo Akiyama (34, -0.6)

Jackie Bradley Jr. (33, -1.9) -- Mutual option

 

Nimmo! Nimmo! And more Nimmo!

[moonslav59]

Well, while he is no Bradley/Kike/Coco Crisp with the glove, Brandon Nimmo is a CF. I won’t speak for him, but playing CF might be something he is looking for in a new contract. If so, I’d keep Kike as an infielder on the table.

 

Of course that still means the Sox need a RF. Presumably one found via the trade market. (Ramon Laureano?)

 

I think my personal choice would be Kike and Nimmo in CF and RF, not real adamant about which one plays where. And pry SS Ha-Seong Kim from the Padres where, if Tatis returns, he becomes a $7mill AAV utility infielder who was worth 3.5 fWAR last year. Even if you think the Padres will retain Snell (certainly possible), do they want or need or are they able to budget $15mill for a utility infielder the next two seasons? Especially if they want to extend Soto?

 

Is Kike's arm good enough fro RF?

[moonslav59]

Nimmo! Nimmo! And more Nimmo!

 

I'm co-piloting the Nimmowagon.

[notin]

If you overhauled and significantly improved the bullpen, without doing anything else except signing Bogaerts, this would be a much better team. That should be the main focus.

 

Absolutely, although replacing the innings from Eovaldi, Wacha and Hill needs to happen.

 

Fulmer and Montero are a great start for upgrading the bullpen.

 

If you have a healthy Houck and Taylor, leave them in the bullpen all year long with Whitlock and Schreiber. Barnes will still be here barring a salary dump swap.

 

And then add a LHRP. That’s a pretty RH bullpen, especially if Taylor isn’t back…

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

If you overhauled and significantly improved the bullpen, without doing anything else except signing Bogaerts, this would be a much better team. That should be the main focus.

 

This is where I'm at, except I'll go Moon and call it significantly improve the pitching staff.

 

And to keep it in generalizations, the Red Sox' biggest needs are then:

 

1. Pitcher

2. Pitcher

3. Pitcher

4. Hitter (to replace Renfroe's bat in '22, which they never did)

5. Hitter (to replace JD's bat)

 

and if Bogaerts leaves...

6. Fielder (to replace his SS glove)

 

#1-3 are the bare minimum for improvement; either, three durable starters or two starters and a legitimate closer.

[notin]

This is where I'm at, except I'll go Moon and call it significantly improve the pitching staff.

 

And to keep it in generalizations, the Red Sox' biggest needs are then:

 

1. Pitcher

2. Pitcher

3. Pitcher

4. Hitter (to replace Renfroe's bat in '22, which they never did)

5. Hitter (to replace JD's bat)

 

and if Bogaerts leaves...

6. Fielder (to replace his SS glove)

 

#1-3 are the bare minimum for improvement; either, three durable starters or two starters and a legitimate closer.

 

Story didn’t replace Renfroe’s bat?

 

If you look at the 2b/RF combos, the 2021 team had Renfroe along with the Arroyo/Chavis/Marwin/Iglesias crowd. The 2022 team had Story and Bradley (plus). As bad as Bradley was offensively, if he simply posted numbers equivalent to that 2b crowd (who are not to be confused with Dustin Pedroia), then the Sox would have seen similar production from both lineup spots and improved defense at both 2b and RF…

[moonslav59]

This is where I'm at, except I'll go Moon and call it significantly improve the pitching staff.

 

And to keep it in generalizations, the Red Sox' biggest needs are then:

 

1. Pitcher

2. Pitcher

3. Pitcher

4. Hitter (to replace Renfroe's bat in '22, which they never did)

5. Hitter (to replace JD's bat)

 

and if Bogaerts leaves...

6. Fielder (to replace his SS glove)

 

#1-3 are the bare minimum for improvement; either, three durable starters or two starters and a legitimate closer.

 

I'm fine with this priority order.

 

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Story didn’t replace Renfroe’s bat?

 

Nope. Story only hit about half as many home runs (16 to '21 Renfroe's 31), but if you want to blame that on games missed via injury, then there's bats missed via K: Trevor whiffed in 30.8% of his ABs; '21 Hunter fanned 22.7%.

 

And nothing against citing production from combinations of positions, but then no one replaced the middle-order presence of '21's second-half difference-maker, Kyle Schwarber.

 

If Bloom can be excused for not anticipating power regression from the Sox' remaining All-Stars, plus Kike (injury?), and Dalbec (sophomore jinx), then he can't be for letting go of Renfroe and Schwarbs... who have 72 HRs combined (that's more than the greatest Yankee in the history of this year!).

[moonslav59]

Nope. Story only hit about half as many home runs (16 to '21 Renfroe's 31), but if you want to blame that on games missed via injury, then there's bats missed via K: Trevor whiffed in 30.8% of his ABs; '21 Hunter fanned 22.7%.

 

And nothing against citing production from combinations of positions, but then no one replaced the middle-order presence of '21's second-half difference-maker, Kyle Schwarber.

 

If Bloom can be excused for not anticipating power regression from the Sox' remaining All-Stars, plus Kike (injury?), and Dalbec (sophomore jinx), then he can't be for letting go of Renfroe and Schwarbs... who have 72 HRs combined (that's more than the greatest Yankee in the history of this year!).

 

Would adding Nimmo for 2023 plus Story returning at 2B even out or exceed Renfroe in RF and Marwin & Co at 2B from 2021?

[notin]

If Bloom can be excused for not anticipating power regression from the Sox' remaining All-Stars, plus Kike (injury?), and Dalbec (sophomore jinx), then he can't be for letting go of Renfroe and Schwarbs... who have 72 HRs combined (that's more than the greatest Yankee in the history of this year!).

 

I can’t pretend to follow the logic here.

 

Bloom tried to replace a slugging RF and a hodgepodge of 2b with a slugging 2b and a Gold Glove in RF, but he was was supposed to anticipate it not working out? Or players getting hurt?

 

If Story had played 160 games and Renfroe played 80, did it mean his logic for making those moves was more sound?

 

And bringing Schwarber into it is moving the goal posts. It has nothing to do with whether or not Renfroe’s production was replaced. And the reason Schwarber wasn’t retained was obvious to me. The Sox shouldn’t be dropping $20 mill on another DH while still having holes in other positions. If JD had opted out, Schwarber then became a realistic option, for reasons related to money and position. Story was a different matter since he filed an immediate vacancy. I always suspected he was also a Plan B against Bogaers leaving, but given all the reports on his elbow, I can’t say for certain that was ever really the case. But if it was, Schwarber does very little to help in that capacity…

[mvp 78]

I can’t pretend to follow the logic here.

 

Bloom tried to replace a slugging RF and a hodgepodge of 2b with a slugging 2b and a Gold Glove in RF, but he was was supposed to anticipate it not working out? Or players getting hurt?

 

If Story had played 160 games and Renfroe played 80, did it mean his logic for making those moves was more sound?

 

And bringing Schwarber into it is moving the goal posts. It has nothing to do with whether or not Renfroe’s production was replaced. And the reason Schwarber wasn’t retained was obvious to me. The Sox shouldn’t be dropping $20 mill on another DH while still having holes in other positions. If JD had opted out, Schwarber then became a realistic option, for reasons related to money and position. Story was a different matter since he filed an immediate vacancy. I always suspected he was also a Plan B against Bogaers leaving, but given all the reports on his elbow, I can’t say for certain that was ever really the case. But if it was, Schwarber does very little to help in that capacity…

 

If Hunter Renfroe was so good, Google wouldn't want to change his name to Hunter Renfrow every time I typed it in.

[notin]

If Hunter Renfroe was so good, Google wouldn't want to change his name to Hunter Renfrow every time I typed it in.

 

Not to mention no one thinks Binelas was a worthwhile get in that deal because he posted a .630 OPS in AA at age 23. Renfroe himself posted a .670 OPS in AA at age 23 and apparently he’s the second coming of Dwight Evans. Yes that comp has been made on this board!

 

That deal is not over yet…

[moonslav59]

Not to mention no one thinks Binelas was a worthwhile get in that deal because he posted a .630 OPS in AA at age 23. Renfroe himself posted a .670 OPS in AA at age 23 and apparently he’s the second coming of Dwight Evans. Yes that comp has been made on this board!

 

That deal is not over yet…

 

Hamilton started hitting much better, late in the year and had 70 SBs T3rd in minors. He may be a sleeper.

 

ALL Minor League SB Leaders (Note the CS totals)

 

85-14 Ruiz

71-15 L Valdez

70-8 Hamilton

70-15 Nunez

70-16 de los Santos

 

Other notables:

61-5 Ferguson

31-3 W Abreu

28-7 Rafaela

28-6 Bonaci

27-5 Paulino

25-0 Meredith

22-3 Chacon

22-2 Miller

21-2 A Lugo

21-5 McDonough

20-1 Sikes

20-7 M Lugo

20-8 de Leon

20-9 Jimenez

17-0 M Mayer

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Would adding Nimmo for 2023 plus Story returning at 2B even out or exceed Renfroe in RF and Marwin & Co at 2B from 2021?

 

I'll reply to you, since you posted an idea about actually going forward, instead of trying to justify mistakes Bloom is universally panned here and elsewhere (all season long, in the case of Renfroe -- who I don't even like because of his shaky D and all-or-nothing swing):

 

The Sox definitely need a starting outfielder who can both catch the ball and hit the ball. Besides the mound, the outfield is the most obvious spot on the field where they need an upgrade right now; though other moves may soon dictate priorities. Nimmo is certainly an option, and the Mets just spent big on outfielders Marte and Canha last winter.

 

No offense, but equating a combo of players added and/or lost at various positions is futile to me. They're all part of the same budget, and I can't begin to guess if the money saved on Price, for example, in 2020 went to another pitcher, several scrap heap arms, part of Kevin Pillar's contract or a combination of season ticket promotional brochures and office stationary.

[moonslav59]

I'll reply to you, since you posted an idea about actually going forward, instead of trying to justify mistakes Bloom is universally panned here and elsewhere (all season long, in the case of Renfroe -- who I don't even like because of his shaky D and all-or-nothing swing):

 

The Sox definitely need a starting outfielder who can both catch the ball and hit the ball. Besides the mound, the outfield is the most obvious spot on the field where they need an upgrade right now; though other moves may soon dictate priorities. Nimmo is certainly an option, and the Mets just spent big on outfielders Marte and Canha last winter.

 

No offense, but equating a combo of players added and/or lost at various positions is futile to me. They're all part of the same budget, and I can't begin to guess if the money saved on Price, for example, in 2020 went to another pitcher, several scrap heap arms, part of Kevin Pillar's contract or a combination of season ticket promotional brochures and office stationary.

 

I only provide the current combo players we have at high need areas to help determine which areas are our highest needs and which might be determined as either "being good enough" or "we don't have enough budget space to fix, right now, and you look better than what we have over there."

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I only provide the current combo players we have at high need areas to help determine which areas are our highest needs and which might be determined as either "being good enough" or "we don't have enough budget space to fix, right now, and you look better than what we have over there."

 

When making comps, it is interesting to look at salaries. For instance, consider Marte and Canha, compared to Kike Hernandez.

 

Marte, age 33, will make over $20 million for each of the next three years. Marte's 162-game averages: 98 runs scored, 18 HRs, .290 batting average, .798 OPS.

Canha, age 33, will make $11.5 mil for the next two years. Canha's 162: 86 runs, 21 HRs, .248 BA, .773 OPS.

Kike, age 30, will make $10 mil next year. Kike's 162: 68 runs, 17 HRs, .240 BA, .732 OPS, good OF and IF defense.

 

Get what you pay for? In the postseason, Marte: 9 G, .167, .536. Canha 9 G, .138, .454. Kike: 69 G, .269, .900.

[moonslav59]

When making comps, it is interesting to look at salaries. For instance, consider Marte and Canha, compared to Kike Hernandez.

 

Marte, age 33, will make over $20 million for each of the next three years. Marte's 162-game averages: 98 runs scored, 18 HRs, .290 batting average, .798 OPS.

Canha, age 33, will make $11.5 mil for the next two years. Canha's 162: 86 runs, 21 HRs, .248 BA, .773 OPS.

Kike, age 30, will make $10 mil next year. Kike's 162: 68 runs, 17 HRs, .240 BA, .732 OPS, good OF and IF defense.

 

Get what you pay for? In the postseason, Marte: 9 G, .167, .536. Canha 9 G, .138, .454. Kike: 69 G, .269, .900.

 

Good comps. I'm confident that if Kike stays healthy, we'll be happy with him at $10M, whether he plays CF, 2B, SS or RF.

 

I'm not a believer in clutch as a repeatable skillset, but he came through when it counted for the Sox in 2021.

[Bellhorn04]

Good comps. I'm confident that if Kike stays healthy, we'll be happy with him at $10M, whether he plays CF, 2B, SS or RF.

 

I'm not a believer in clutch as a repeatable skillset, but he came through when it counted for the Sox in 2021.

 

Kike has a .900 OPS in 194 postseason PA's.