Will there be a 2022 season?

[notin]

To accept a cap, the players would need a floor of 125M and arbitration years to start year 1.

 

So let’s say the proposal was:

 

1. Limits as proposed by the owners

2. Similar penalties on a salary floor of $90mill

3. Ditch the arbitration process (which neither side likes) and replace it with restricted free agency (similar to NBA) after 3 years and unrestricted free agency after 5 years

 

 

Which side says no and why? (Both might be a correct answer here.)

[mvp 78]

So let’s say the proposal was:

 

1. Limits as proposed by the owners

2. Similar penalties on a salary floor of $90mill

3. Ditch the arbitration process (which neither side likes) and replace it with restricted free agency (similar to NBA) after 3 years and unrestricted free agency after 5 years

 

 

Which side says no and why? (Both might be a correct answer here.)

 

Owners say no because they wouldn't accept a salary floor that high. (Penalties for missing the floor should be greater than lux tax penalties.)

 

Players say no because they have been complaining about the lux cap implications for years. I don't think they will budge on that unless they are overwhelmed by an offer. Plus, this proposal doesn' tstop players from making the minimum the first 3 years in the league. Why should a ROY/MVP candidate still make the minimum?

[Elktonnick]

Since I am not able to see the owners books it really is impossible to speak accurately about what teams can and can not afford. What I do know is that the pro sport landscape will change radically over the next 6 to 10 years. The owners have shot themselves in the foot by their ill conceived reform of the minor leagues.

The trend is for there to be fewer players over the age of 30 playing regularly in the big leagues. Yet the elder players are the ones calling the shots in the players union. From my point of view both sides are working feverishly to ruin the long term future of the game. When I first got interested in major league baseball, horse racing and boxing drew as many if not more fans than did baseball. Now unless its the triple crown no one pays to see a horse race and unless its a championship fight no cares who is boxing whom. As far as I can see both the owners and players are doing their best to ensure MLB becomes as popular as horse racing and boxing.

[notin]

Owners say no because they wouldn't accept a salary floor that high. (Penalties for missing the floor should be greater than lux tax penalties.)

 

Players say no because they have been complaining about the lux cap implications for years. I don't think they will budge on that unless they are overwhelmed by an offer. Plus, this proposal doesn' tstop players from making the minimum the first 3 years in the league. Why should a ROY/MVP candidate still make the minimum?

 

 

While true, it also has to come down to which demands each side has to surrender. For example, do the earlier free agency proposals offset anything the union wants?

 

This isn’t ever getting resolved if both sides insist on each getting all of their demands…

[mvp 78]

While true, it also has to come down to which demands each side has to surrender. For example, do the earlier free agency proposals offset anything the union wants?

 

This isn’t ever getting resolved if both sides insist on each getting all of their demands…

 

Yes, both sides need concessions. However, the owners could just end the lockout today and Spring Training would start tomorrow.

[dgalehouse]

Since I am not able to see the owners books it really is impossible to speak accurately about what teams can and can not afford. What I do know is that the pro sport landscape will change radically over the next 6 to 10 years. The owners have shot themselves in the foot by their ill conceived reform of the minor leagues.

The trend is for there to be fewer players over the age of 30 playing regularly in the big leagues. Yet the elder players are the ones calling the shots in the players union. From my point of view both sides are working feverishly to ruin the long term future of the game. When I first got interested in major league baseball, horse racing and boxing drew as many if not more fans than did baseball. Now unless its the triple crown no one pays to see a horse race and unless its a championship fight no cares who is boxing whom. As far as I can see both the owners and players are doing their best to ensure MLB becomes as popular as horse racing and boxing.

 

Boxing and horse racing have been loosely regulated and poorly promoted for years. They took the fan base for granted and paid the price for it. The fans found other sports to follow. And wager on. Baseball should learn from this and be very careful. There are a lot of alternatives for the entertainment dollar. And there simply are not enough die hard fans to support the game. It is stupid to keep alienating your fans.

[dgalehouse]

Baseball players are in a unique position when it comes to labor relations. They all have agents to negotiate their personal contracts . And they also have a union to bargain for what limits on the total payroll should or should not be. In a way , they are united . But in another way , they are competing against each other for a bigger slice of the pie. And there is very little job security. I don't think there is anything quite like it in the business world.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

One of the ironies is older players wanting more for younger players. If they get their way, more old guys could be out of jobs. This may not be a bad thing for them or fans, because most veteran players will become even more embittered that their game is "just a job", plus a lot of them have already earned a lot of money. More focus will then be on the really hungry players -- the guys who aren't rich for life yet. And owners will love it.

[moonslav59]

To accept a cap, the players would need a floor of 125M and arbitration years to start year 1.

 

While I agree with your previous post, I think the "cap" does not hurt the vast majority of players, whereas this counter would be a huge blow to the owners. Many teams are far from $125M (more than are flirting with the lux tax line.)

 

Arbs after year 1 is way more of a jolt to the system than the so called cap.

 

They won't get either, let alone both.

[mvp 78]

While I agree with your previous post, I think the "cap" does not hurt the vast majority of players, whereas this counter would be a huge blow to the owners. Many teams are far from $125M (more than are flirting with the lux tax line.)

 

Arbs after year 1 is way more of a jolt to the system than the so called cap.

 

They won't get either, let alone both.

 

It hurts everyone as it artificially decreases salaries across the board.

[notin]

It hurts everyone as it artificially decreases salaries across the board.

 

 

I think that the artificial deflation would only affect a few, and making them “suffer” through a $25mill AAV instead of $32mill isn’t exactly a cry that elicits a lot of sympathy.

 

A floor is really needed. And a cap actually makes a floor more palatable to any owner who actually wants to put a good product on the field. And - and this does help the union - increases the total amount of salaried money in the game for players.

 

I think the union needs to concede this point if they can get a good floor. It does become a question of what the floor should be. $50million? $75 million? Is there any number the owners would say “we can live with that.”

 

MLB remains the only sport with these types of levels of economic disparity. Maybe it’s time they got in line…

[mvp 78]

@JeffPassan

Major League Baseball asked for the ability to eliminate hundreds of minor league playing jobs in its latest labor proposal, sources told ESPN. The league would not be allowed to implement the plan until after 2022.

 

It only takes $2.5M to pay payroll for all of an org's MiLB players.

Edited February 15, 2022 by mvp 78

[mvp 78]

I think that the artificial deflation would only affect a few, and making them “suffer” through a $25mill AAV instead of $32mill isn’t exactly a cry that elicits a lot of sympathy.

 

A floor is really needed. And a cap actually makes a floor more palatable to any owner who actually wants to put a good product on the field. And - and this does help the union - increases the total amount of salaried money in the game for players.

 

I think the union needs to concede this point if they can get a good floor. It does become a question of what the floor should be. $50million? $75 million? Is there any number the owners would say “we can live with that.”

 

MLB remains the only sport with these types of levels of economic disparity. Maybe it’s time they got in line…

 

It affects everyone.

[mvp 78]

@JeffPassan

Currently, teams can roster 180 domestic minor league players. The league is seeking the ability for the commissioner’s office to reduce it to “below 150" but could add to the number, too. Right now, sources said, two teams have fewer than 150 while five teams have more than 180.

 

While the MLBPA represents only major leaguers, it does bargain for a number of amateur/minor league issues. Among those: the draft. The union in July proposed a 20-round draft, something that the league accepted, one of the few points on which they've agreed during negotiations.

[moonslav59]

It hurts everyone as it artificially decreases salaries across the board.

 

I never said it did not.

 

My point was directed at what a balancing offer on the lower end would be needed.

[mvp 78]

"The cap does not hurt the vast majority of players."

 

"It hurts everyone as it artificially deflates salaries."

 

"I never said it didn't."

[notin]

"The cap does not hurt the vast majority of players."

 

"It hurts everyone as it artificially deflates salaries."

 

"I never said it didn't."

 

 

The first line is me. I stand by it. I think the majority of players who are negatively affected fall into a category where the negative effect they feel turns into a counterbalancing positive effect for another player…

[mvp 78]

The first line is me. I stand by it. I think the majority of players who are negatively affected fall into a category where the negative effect they feel turns into a counterbalancing positive effect for another player…

 

The first line comes directly from moon's post #489?

[mvp 78]

@JeffPassan

Pitchers and catchers were supposed to report today.

[moonslav59]

A player signing for a big contract on a team near or over the lux tax does not affect "everyone." (Remember, a player signing for $30M for a team not over the lux tax should not count in this discussion.)

 

It does not affect pre-arb player salaries, which is a huge amount of MLB players.

 

It does affect arb player salaries, indirectly, but not by a whole lot, IMO.

 

It does affect other FA contracts for lower tier free agents, but that is hard to quantify.

 

I do not think the total affect equals making the floor team player budget $125M and making players arbs last just one year. To me, that is a massive imbalance.

 

I think even one of those two things is more than a balancing measure by the player's side.

 

Edited February 15, 2022 by moonslav59

[Bellhorn04]

The first line comes directly from moon's post #489?

 

I see you have your hands full.

[Bellhorn04]

A player signing for a big contract on a team near or over the lux tax does not affect "everyone." (Remember, a player signing for $30M for a team not over the lux tax should not count in this discussion.)

 

It does not affect pre-arb player salaries, which is a huge amount of MLB players.

 

It does affect arb player salaries, indirectly, but not by a whole lot, IMO.

 

It does affect other FA contracts for lower tier free agents, but that is hard to quantify.

 

I do not think the total affect equals making the floor team player budget $125M and making players arbs last just one year. To me, that is a massive imbalance.

 

I think even one of those two things is more than a balancing measure by the player's side.

 

 

A cap potentially affects every single free agent, even the cheap ones, by potentially taking richer teams with cap issues out of the bidding.

[notin]

A cap potentially affects every single free agent, even the cheap ones, because it potentially takes richer teams with cap issues out of the bidding.

 

Ok, but doesn’t a corresponding floor force some other typically disinterested teams back in?

[Bellhorn04]

Ok, but doesn’t a corresponding floor force some other typically disinterested teams back in?

 

It should, yes.

 

Are there any indications a floor is being talked about in the current negotiations?

[notin]

It should, yes.

 

Are there any indications a floor is being talked about in the current negotiations?

 

 

No idea. Manfred stopped taking my calls.

 

But my point all along has been the union should concede to the owners’ proposed ceiling if they can get an adequate floor (with proper penalties)…

[jad]

Question for those w/ experience in labor negotiations: my understanding is that when a side is negotiating in good faith, it does not suddenly throw in wild proposals (in its favor of course) out of the blue. So what's up with MLB's recent proposal to eliminate the number of minor leaguers? Wouldn't this be like the Union coming in and suddenly proposing, oh, a 100-game season with two weeks vacation in July and 40 acres for each player?

 

Or is this just one of the annoying tactics that is ordinarily used during negotiations?

[mvp 78]

I see you have your hands full.

 

I just wish there were better things to chat about.

 

Would Paplebon have made more in his career if he was left as a starter? He had 3 pitches. Could he have been a serviceable 3rd starter?

[mvp 78]

Question for those w/ experience in labor negotiations: my understanding is that when a side is negotiating in good faith, it does not suddenly throw in wild proposals (in its favor of course) out of the blue. So what's up with MLB's recent proposal to eliminate the number of minor leaguers? Wouldn't this be like the Union coming in and suddenly proposing, oh, a 100-game season with two weeks vacation in July and 40 acres for each player?

 

Or is this just one of the annoying tactics that is ordinarily used during negotiations?

 

You don't typically keep things like that in your back pocket. I think it shows that some of the smaller teams wield an oversized amount of power.

[Bellhorn04]

No idea. Manfred stopped taking my calls.

 

But my point all along has been the union should concede to the owners’ proposed ceiling if they can get an adequate floor (with proper penalties)…

 

I don't disagree. I'm just wondering if a floor has even been discussed. If not, I can't see them introducing it at this late stage. But who knows.

[Bellhorn04]

I just wish there were better things to chat about.

 

Would Paplebon have made more in his career if he was left as a starter? He had 3 pitches. Could he have been a serviceable 3rd starter?

 

Strictly a guess, but I think he made the right call. Became one of the best closers in the game, won a ring, made plenty of dough.