Red Sox trade Hunter Renfroe in trade involving Jackie Bradley Jr

[Bellhorn04]

Yeah, I don't remember ever thinking Renfroe wasn't going to be worth the money, I was skeptical he could duplicate a career year but I didn't think he was going to be bad. There seems to be some revisionist history going on there. But people keep on talking about Renfroe like he would have been the savior of this team. REALLY? he and his .825 OPS is good but not elite by any means.

 

.825 is not elite, but an OPS+ of 129 is pretty damn good.

 

The average OPS in baseball this year is only .707.

[Old Red]

Come on, man. We've been over this so many times. Nobody here worries about JH's money. It's just we know he does have a budget/limit/cap/whatever, and we worry about how it's spent.

 

Ok I understand that JH has a budget, but I just don’t worry about it. It’s not like he can’t afford to go over the lux tax, and that’s how I look at it, but I do get it man.

[moonslav59]

Come on, man. We've been over this so many times. Nobody here worries about JH's money. It's just we know he does have a budget/limit/cap/whatever, and we worry about how it's spent.

 

It's ridiculous to think having a $40M winter spending budget is no different from $60 or $90M, not to mention year 1, when Bloom was forced to cut tens of millions of dollars- leading to the Betts/Price trade.

 

It's true, Henry can spend $400M, if he wants, but that doesn't mean he allows Bloom to spend at will. It's plain and clear there have been budget restrictions given to our GMs over the years. Pretending that's not true does not make it so.

 

It's always about how the money is spent, but certainly how much there is to spend each winter matters greatly, too. The fact that the majority of fans don't think or worry about it, doesn't mean it is not a significant factor in what we get for a roster to watch and cheer for or boo.

[Old Red]

It's ridiculous to think having a $40M winter spending budget is no different from $60 or $90M, not to mention year 1, when Bloom was forced to cut tens of millions of dollars- leading to the Betts/Price trade.

 

It's true, Henry can spend $400M, if he wants, but that doesn't mean he allows Bloom to spend at will. It's plain and clear there have been budget restrictions given to our GMs over the years. Pretending that's not true does not make it so.

 

It's always about how the money is spent, but certainly how much there is to spend each winter matters greatly, too. The fact that the majority of fans don't think or worry about it, doesn't mean it is not a significant factor in what we get for a roster to watch and cheer for or boo.

Who said spending $40M is no different from $60, or $90M who? Who is pretending there is no budget restrictions on Bloom who? Some just don’t care, and use that as an excuse the Red Sox are a losing team, and in last place in the Div.

[moonslav59]

Who said spending $40M is no different from $60, or $90M who? Who is pretending there is no budget restrictions on Bloom who? Some just don’t care, and use that as an excuse the Red Sox are a losing team, and in last place in the Div.

 

Well, 5GG did post "the rest of us could care less if Chaim Bloom is "allowed" to spend $40 million or $400 million.." which isn't the same as saying there is no difference, but the point was made about it not mattering.

 

There were also some posters who thought Bloom chose to cut the budget and trade Betts, and that it was not forced on him. One even argued Price was not a salary dump.

 

On the flip side, nobody is arguing that Bloom spent every dollar wisely. I'm not even sure he spent half the money allotted wisely. My point was that when you have $40M to spend on 10 slots, expecting greatness fro $4M players is having unreasonable expectations. Couple that with the fact that the players Bloom inherited all declined, except devers, Vaz and Houck, and some by massive amounts, I don't view that as excuse-making but ather adding context to a difficult situation for any GM to create a successful team, unless sacrificing the farm was part of the plan given to the GM.

 

Not "caring" is the right of any fan to do, and I don't blame any fan for not caring about budget facts, but that doesn't mean it's not important when judging the success of a GM.

[mvp 78]

Ok I understand that JH has a budget, but I just don’t worry about it. It’s not like he can’t afford to go over the lux tax, and that’s how I look at it, but I do get it man.

 

I can afford to spend $20k on rare Pappy Van Winkle, but I know my wife will bop me on my head if I do so.

[Old Red]

Well, 5GG did post "the rest of us could care less if Chaim Bloom is "allowed" to spend $40 million or $400 million.." which isn't the same as saying there is no difference, but the point was made about it not mattering.

 

There were also some posters who thought Bloom chose to cut the budget and trade Betts, and that it was not forced on him. One even argued Price was not a salary dump.

 

On the flip side, nobody is arguing that Bloom spent every dollar wisely. I'm not even sure he spent half the money allotted wisely. My point was that when you have $40M to spend on 10 slots, expecting greatness fro $4M players is having unreasonable expectations. Couple that with the fact that the players Bloom inherited all declined, except devers, Vaz and Houck, and some by massive amounts, I don't view that as excuse-making but ather adding context to a difficult situation for any GM to create a successful team, unless sacrificing the farm was part of the plan given to the GM.

 

Not "caring" is the right of any fan to do, and I don't blame any fan for not caring about budget facts, but that doesn't mean it's not important when judging the success of a GM.

Ok we basically agree. I don’t care about the budget mainly, because of the high, high ticket prices. That may be a wrong way to look at it, but I’ve felt that way for years.

[Bellhorn04]

Ok we basically agree. I don’t care about the budget mainly, because of the high, high ticket prices. That may be a wrong way to look at it, but I’ve felt that way for years.

 

Losing Betts, now that was worrisome.

 

Potentially losing Bogey and Devers, also worrisome.

[Old Red]

Losing Betts, now that was worrisome.

 

Potentially losing Bogey and Devers, also worrisome.

Agree, and losing all three to me would be total disaster on the field, and off?

[moonslav59]

Ok we basically agree. I don’t care about the budget mainly, because of the high, high ticket prices. That may be a wrong way to look at it, but I’ve felt that way for years.

 

Fair enough. I hate higher prices, too, and when I look at concert ticket prices, I'm astounded.

 

To me, personally, I can't de-couple the actual winter spending budget, the amount of new farm infusion each year and the production of inherited players when judging any GM. Of course, the biggest judgment comes from grading the actual moves they make, but to me, it's should have context attached.

 

When I hear, "The Rays and A's don't have any rings," I think, "sure that's true, but they run a good system to be able to but together competitive teams more times than not on a shoestring budget and without getting top draft picks, year-after-year like Pittsburgh & Baltimore."

 

It's all relative, to me, but I know full well, those concerns don't reach most fans. They want a winning tea, right now. Nothing wrong with that. And, when they see the Sox budget being higher than almost any other teams, anything said is just excuse-making. I get that. The point has merit. We should be winning more than we are, this year. No doubt.

 

The next logical step is to say, "The buck stops at the top," and that makes sense, too. Those who try to add context to what Bloom has faced aren't oblivious to the fact that we are in last place while spending more than 25 teams, but we don't view it as excuse-making to point out facts that were beyond Bloom's control being maybe too much to overcome the good he has brought to the system, as a whole. While the W-L record may show we are no better off than 2020, I think we are.

 

The 40 man roster is deeper and stronger, even if too much is just mediocre. The past 40 man roster was at or worse than replacement level from #30 to #40.

The long term dead money is almost gone, and sale's money is not Bloom's doing. (Story's is.)

The long term budget looks brighter.

The farm, on paper, looks much better, and that's all you can really as of a GM, until the players start making it to the bigs- 2-6 years from now. (We can see how little the farm has contributed after 2018: Houck, Dalbec, Duran...)

The 2021 results were better than expected. The 2022 results were not. In a rebuild, that's not uncommon.

 

When you look at Bloom's major moves, one-by-one, you will see a lot of "failures," but many are player signed to $2-5M, and those are the types of contracts where gambles are taken and losses are very common. Now, the moves like Richards and Story were not minor, but the fact that only 2 have been made at $10M or more says alot about the need to temper expectations.

 

The midlevel signings have been more successful: Kike, Wacha, Hill and it looks like he missed on Perez by a year.

 

He was supposed to be great at finding gems in the rough at less than $3M, and guys like Andriese & Marwin were big failures, but he also signed Renroe for $3.1M, stole Whitlock, Arroyo, Schreiber and Refsnyder off Rule 5 and waivers. Strahm was a decent signing.

 

His trades have been the most hotly debated and for good reason. The JBJ trade jumpsout and seemingly overshadows all others, and the fact that prospects were attached to nearly every trade made, makes it hard to definitively judge them prematurely. The Pivetta deal got us a solid 4/5 starter for nothing. The Ottavino trade, which cost us nothing, also brought us German. The Beni trade looks bad, but the $3M saved did allow us to sign an OF'er in his place (Renfroe or you could say Marwin.) The deadline deals look like pluses, overall- both for now and going forward. How many GMs can say that?

 

I know I ran on and on, here, and much of this has been said before. I know I'm not changing anyone's mind and saying I'm just hoping some understand our viewpoint better sounds condescending, but I honestly don't mean it that way.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

We get you, Moon. A Globe story last week said the Red Sox' actual spending -- not what they owed before Bloom took over -- was only ranked 13th of 30 teams (and it added "15th, not counting Story"... though, I don't know how we couldn't).

 

But even Sam Kennedy noted yesterday that a lot of dough is coming out of the oven this winter. Let's see if they can cook up something new (please, no more refried beans).

[Bellhorn04]

We get you, Moon. A Globe story last week said the Red Sox' actual spending -- not what they owed before Bloom took over -- was only ranked 13th of 30 teams (and it added "15th, not counting Story"... though, I don't know how we couldn't).

 

But even Sam Kennedy noted yesterday that a lot of dough is coming out of the oven this winter. Let's see if they can cook up something new (please, no more refried beans).

 

It's getting pretty creative not to include existing payroll commitments in "actual spending".

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

It's getting pretty creative not to include existing payroll commitments in "actual spending".

 

We're Numbah 13!

[Bellhorn04]

We're Numbah 13!

 

Good to know our mortgage payments and car payments are not actual spending, though.

[notin]

Who said spending $40M is no different from $60, or $90M who? Who is pretending there is no budget restrictions on Bloom who? Some just don’t care, and use that as an excuse the Red Sox are a losing team, and in last place in the Div.

 

Well, anyone still complaining about the Betts trade, for one..,

[notin]

It's getting pretty creative not to include existing payroll commitments in "actual spending".

 

 

I think the massage in that post was “if you eliminate most of money the Sox are spending, then they aren’t spending much”

[moonslav59]

i think the massage in that post was “if you eliminate most of money the sox are spending, then they aren’t spending much”

 

lmao!

 

[Bellhorn04]

I think the massage in that post was “if you eliminate most of money the Sox are spending, then they aren’t spending much”

 

I'm sure the Padres will be relieved to know the money they're paying Tatis, Machado and Hosmer is not spending.

[moonslav59]

For real, though, if Bogey opts out, our veteran, pre-arb budget will be around $60M at the start of winter.

 

I'm thinking that may be the lowest in a long time. (These one year deals are a major factor.)

[notin]

I'm sure the Padres will be relieved to know the money they're paying Tatis, Machado and Hosmer is not spending.

 

 

It frees up so much more for Juan Soto!!!

[mvp 78]

For real, though, if Bogey opts out, our veteran, pre-arb budget will be around $60M at the start of winter.

 

I'm thinking that may be the lowest in a long time. (These one year deals are a major factor.)

 

Ok, but who on the open market would they use it on?

[moonslav59]

Ok, but who on the open market would they use it on?

 

They could trade for higher-priced players or arb players some cheap teams might look to trade.

 

I'd like to see us get Swanson at SS, but KWong at 2B would be nice, if Story moves to SS. (Neither should cost more than Story did.)

 

Kike & Nimmo would be great for the OF, and neither will be mega deals.

 

Re-sign Wacha or maybe offer him a QO.

 

Maybe a couple RP'ers. I'd like to see Diaz or Jansen, but that's not likely. Fulmer would be nice, if we can keep Houck & Whitlock in the pen.

 

We might add Abreu at 1B/DH on a short deal.

 

I doubt we seriously go after Judge, Contreras, Turner, Correa or deGrom, but we could.

[iortiz]

They could trade for higher-priced players or arb players some cheap teams might look to trade.

 

I'd like to see us get Swanson at SS, but KWong at 2B would be nice, if Story moves to SS. (Neither should cost more than Story did.)

 

Kike & Nimmo would be great for the OF, and neither will be mega deals.

 

Re-sign Wacha or maybe offer him a QO.

 

Maybe a couple RP'ers. I'd like to see Diaz or Jansen, but that's not likely. Fulmer would be nice, if we can keep Houck & Whitlock in the pen.

 

We might add Abreu at 1B/DH on a short deal.

 

I doubt we seriously go after Judge, Contreras, Turner, Correa or deGrom, but we could.

 

Stay away from Jansen.

[moonslav59]

Stay away from Jansen.

 

A quarter of the board was crying about us not getting him, all year.

[dgalehouse]

Jansen has been one of the best closers of the post Mariano era. But he is at the tail end of his career at this point. Diaz is the best in the game right now. I don't see how the Sox would outbid the Mets for his services. Better look elsewhere.

[Old Red]

A quarter of the board was crying about us not getting him, all year.

 

Moon nobody was crying. Complaining yes. He’s had a pretty good year with Atlanta who was smart enough to see a need even though they already had a good BP, and went out, and did something about it.

[mvp 78]

They could trade for higher-priced players or arb players some cheap teams might look to trade.

 

I'd like to see us get Swanson at SS, but KWong at 2B would be nice, if Story moves to SS. (Neither should cost more than Story did.)

 

Kike & Nimmo would be great for the OF, and neither will be mega deals.

 

Re-sign Wacha or maybe offer him a QO.

 

Maybe a couple RP'ers. I'd like to see Diaz or Jansen, but that's not likely. Fulmer would be nice, if we can keep Houck & Whitlock in the pen.

 

We might add Abreu at 1B/DH on a short deal.

 

I doubt we seriously go after Judge, Contreras, Turner, Correa or deGrom, but we could.

 

Wacha QO? No.

[Bellhorn04]

Wacha QO? No.

 

Whyzat?

[notin]

Ok, but who on the open market would they use it on?

 

There’s always some team looking to shave some salary that will let an expensive star player go. Best bet right now is San Diego…

[notin]

Wacha QO? No.

 

Why not?

 

If nothing else, it helps the Sox retain him by eliminating any team that won’t give up a draft pick. And even if he accepts, they could negotiate a multi-year deal instead…