9/25 Yankees at Red Sox

[vegasbob]

I am sure you are all very tired of me pointing out truths about he 2021 Sox. But this team has no business wasting your or my time thinking about the playoffs. Shades of Mora. No guts, no glory . I am not Bloom, but if I were, I would almost start again from ground zero with players who want to win and have the ability to do so. It may may take 5 years and 26 new names.

[moonslav59]

The pretender fans are back in force, I see.

[Thunder]

What does that actually mean. Serioulsy, are you admiring the long fly of your opponent ?

 

Yes. The vibe among Red Sox fans in the ballpark when that happened was more shock and awe than anger and heartbreak. I was there with a Yankee fan, so I let him enjoy it. Nothing better than the sound of a well struck baseball, regardless of who hits it. Some might say it is a sign of maturity and mental stability to be gracious and respectful in defeat

[jad]

I am sure you are all very tired of me pointing out truths about he 2021 Sox. But this team has no business wasting your or my time thinking about the playoffs. Shades of Mora. No guts, no glory . I am not Bloom, but if I were, I would almost start again from ground zero with players who want to win and have the ability to do so. It may may take 5 years and 26 new names.

 

Yeah, those stiffs Devers, Boggaerts, Sale, Dalbec, Renfroe, Hernandez, etc.--they really need to go. You can tell they are trying to lose.

[illinoisredsox]

What does that actually mean. Serioulsy, are you admiring the long fly of your opponent ?

 

You can admire it and still be pissed that it happened.

 

Lets face it, it was a no doubter. Painful as it was to watch, it was far preferable to some dinky fly ball down the line that scrapes the Pesky pole or a Bucky Bleeping Dent type "blast" that drops into the first row of the monster seats.

 

And it could have been worse, it could have been penis head (Gardner).

[Fan_since_Boggs]

Cora was definitely banking on Hernandez getting Rizzo out. You can't want him pitching to Stanton with the bases loaded.

 

Problem is, you can't count on Hernandez, he is always wild, walks too many batters. I don't know how you ever take Houck out of that game, he is better than Hernandez and with Stanton looming on deck you don't want the lefty in the game even through Rizzo is at the plate.

 

That loss is 100% on Cora. I'm pretty confident that the Red Sox win the game if they keep Houck in the game. It's not like Houck threw too many pitches and was getting tired. I believed he could have finished off the inning and the game.

 

Sometime managers blow it, they overthink it, and make terrible decisions. It happens. If it happens too often, the manager should be replaced. I'm not saying Cora should be replaced, but he needs to make better decisions than this, and he usually does make better decisions than this.

[Bellhorn04]

Problem is, you can't count on Hernandez, he is always wild, walks too many batters. I don't know how you ever take Houck out of that game, he is better than Hernandez and with Stanton looming on deck you don't want the lefty in the game even through Rizzo is at the plate.

 

That loss is 100% on Cora. I'm pretty confident that the Red Sox win the game if they keep Houck in the game. It's not like Houck threw too many pitches and was getting tired. I believed he could have finished off the inning and the game.

 

Sometime managers blow it, they overthink it, and make terrible decisions. It happens. If it happens too often, the manager should be replaced. I'm not saying Cora should be replaced, but he needs to make better decisions than this, and he usually does make better decisions than this.

 

Disagree. Houck issued 4 walks. in less than 2 innings. That's not indicative of a pitcher who's on his game.

 

Hernandez just had to get Rizzo. That was his job. When he plunked Rizzo that opened up the possibility of what happened.

[moonslav59]

Problem is, you can't count on Hernandez, he is always wild, walks too many batters. I don't know how you ever take Houck out of that game, he is better than Hernandez and with Stanton looming on deck you don't want the lefty in the game even through Rizzo is at the plate.

 

That loss is 100% on Cora. I'm pretty confident that the Red Sox win the game if they keep Houck in the game. It's not like Houck threw too many pitches and was getting tired. I believed he could have finished off the inning and the game.

 

Sometime managers blow it, they overthink it, and make terrible decisions. It happens. If it happens too often, the manager should be replaced. I'm not saying Cora should be replaced, but he needs to make better decisions than this, and he usually does make better decisions than this.

 

100% Cora?

 

I hope that is just hyperbole.

 

A few of us posters thought leaving Houck in longer was the right thing to do, and I find Cora maybe 1% responsible for the loss.

 

The players lost that game. We had 2 solo blasts. They had one granny. We walked and hit batsmenned the bases loaded. Cora didn’t pitch one pitch.

 

He’s the clear cut manager of the year.

 

The hyper criticism is mind-boggling, and it might be part of the reason some players want out of this toxic environment.

[moonslav59]

Disagree. Houck issued 4 walks. in less than 2 innings. That's not indicative of a pitcher who's on his game.

 

Hernandez just had to get Rizzo. That was his job. When he plunked Rizzo that opened up the possibility of what happened.

 

Then, the 3 batter rule kept DHern in for the mismatch.

[Bellhorn04]

Then, the 3 batter rule kept DHern in for the mismatch.

 

Exactly right. And while it burned us last night, I like the rule.

[Fan_since_Boggs]

Houck will walk some people, he didn't have great control, but he is also incredibly hard to hit, to square up and make solid contact against. Thus, he is the pitcher you want in that situation. The bases aren't loaded yet, and even if he walks Rizzo, Stanton has to go against a guy who is super-tough on right handed hitters.

 

He’s the clear cut manager of the year.

 

I would be shocked if he is the manager of the year. He didn't handle the Red Sox post-trade deadline slump very well in my opinion and the Red Sox batters haven't been all that responsive to his repeated requests to stop expanding the zone.

 

And while it burned us last night, I like the rule.

 

I like the rule too but how hard is it for Cora to think ahead and conclude that if Hernandez, who has shaky control and walks too many batters (a problem that has plagued his entire career), doesn't execute pitches against Rizzo he will face Stanton with bases loaded? It was a dumb decision at the time and the results weren't all that unpredictable.

 

A manager can make a terrible decision, it happens from time to time. Some people seem to think that Cora is perfect and never makes mistakes.

Edited September 26, 2021 by Fan_since_Boggs

[moonslav59]

Houck will walk some people, he didn't have great control, but he is also incredibly hard to hit, to square up and make solid contact against. Thus, he is the pitcher you want in that situation. The bases aren't loaded yet, and even if he walks Rizzo, Stanton has to go against a guy who is super-tough on right handed hitters.

 

 

 

I would be shocked if he is the manager of the year. He didn't handle the Red Sox post-trade deadline slump very well in my opinion and the Red Sox batters haven't been all that responsive to his repeated requests to stop expanding the zone.

 

 

I like the rule too but how hard is it for Cora to think ahead and conclude that if Hernandez, who has shaky control and walks too many batters (a problem that has plagued his entire career), doesn't execute pitches against Rizzo he will face Stanton with bases loaded? It was a dumb decision at the time and the results weren't all that unpredictable.

 

You really think another manager would have snapped the team out of that slump?

 

Who do you think will be MOY? Whoever it is, I can dig up a slump and ask why didn't he stop it?

 

Look at this Sox pitching staff and defense. The defense is way worse than the numbers show as many bad plays and non plays were not called errors. Our BAbip against is atrocious. It may even be record-breaking, in terms of how far worse it is against the league average.

 

We started the year with 3 mega-elite batters and a bunch of also-rans, except for maybe Verdugo showing hopes of being .800+ again.

 

The line-up is now as deep as just about any other team. I'm not giving Cora credit for everything that went right, but his patience with Dalbec, Renfroe and others looks genius, now. Sure, maybe he stuck with Marwin, Santana, Cordero and a few others, too long, but IMO, you need to do that, at times. I won't give Cora credit for squeezing great numbers from Iggy, Shaw, Richards as a RP'er and the rag-tag pen behind him, but I think he deserves partial credit for much of what has gone right, this year.

 

I thought I was being generous projecting 86 wins before any FAs were signed, and we are already at 88 with 7 to go. I bet most baseball experts projected 76-84 wins for the Sox.

 

One can argue we have been remarkably healthy, except for that COVID stretch, but part of that could be credited to Cora for his resting routine and by not hurrying Sale or pushing Houck and Whitlock beyond their current capacity.

 

To me, Cora has been a genius. That does not mean I don't ever disagree with some moves and choices. I do a lot, but I'm no expert. Many of the times I disagreed, Cora proved me wrong. A few times it looked like I was right, maybe I just got lucky.

 

At worst, Cora is the second best manager the Sox have had since 1971. I don't think I am alone in that opinion.

 

[moonslav59]

Houck will walk some people, he didn't have great control, but he is also incredibly hard to hit, to square up and make solid contact against. Thus, he is the pitcher you want in that situation. The bases aren't loaded yet, and even if he walks Rizzo, Stanton has to go against a guy who is super-tough on right handed hitters.

 

 

 

I would be shocked if he is the manager of the year. He didn't handle the Red Sox post-trade deadline slump very well in my opinion and the Red Sox batters haven't been all that responsive to his repeated requests to stop expanding the zone.

 

 

 

I like the rule too but how hard is it for Cora to think ahead and conclude that if Hernandez, who has shaky control and walks too many batters (a problem that has plagued his entire career), doesn't execute pitches against Rizzo he will face Stanton with bases loaded? It was a dumb decision at the time and the results weren't all that unpredictable.

 

A manager can make a terrible decision, it happens from time to time. Some people seem to think that Cora is perfect and never makes mistakes.

 

You know, it could be the right move, even though it failed, that time.

 

It could also be the wrong move that works, too.

 

It was a tough call to make. This time, it failed. Most times, his moves have worked, even many that looked like head-scratcher, at the time.

 

 

 

[Fan_since_Boggs]

I'm winning or losing that game with Houck. I was annoyed when he took him out and said so at the time (not after the fact). I like Houck and would stick with him there, showing full confidence in him. For me, Houck is the kind of pitcher who can walk 6 batters in a game (when he is off his game) and yet not give up any hard contact.

 

I wasn't pleased with the decision to take Houck out of the starting rotation. But if the Red Sox are going to do that, then I would use him as a three inning reliever, I wouldn't take him out of games any earlier unless he imploded. Thus, again, I'm keeping Houck in that game and letting him pitch in the ninth as well.

 

The only question is Francona. Cora and Francona are the two best Red Sox managers.

[moonslav59]

I'm winning or losing that game with Houck. I was annoyed when he took him out and said so at the time (not after the fact). I like Houck and would stick with him there, showing full confidence in him. For me, Houck is the kind of pitcher who can walk 6 batters in a game (when he is off his game) and yet not give up any hard contact.

 

I wasn't pleased with the decision to take Houck out of the starting rotation. But if the Red Sox are going to do that, then I would use him as a three inning reliever, I wouldn't take him out of games any earlier unless he imploded. Thus, again, I'm keeping Houck in that game and letting him pitch in the ninth as well.

 

The only question is Francona. Cora and Francona are the two best Red Sox managers.

 

At the time, I wanted Houck to stay in the game, too, but it's understandable taking him out.

 

I don't think calling Cora a bum, like some did is appropriate-even in the heat of the moment.

 

I've disagreed with many Cora moves, and most of them worked out. That's not to say he's never made a mistake. He'd probably tell us he's made dozens, this year. (There is a difference between being critical and bashing.)

 

All managers do.

 

Cora is a great manager. He's proven me wrong on so many moves, that I'd think I would be hypocritical to bash him when some moves go wrong.

 

[Tedballgame]

If Sox win today all will be good again😁

[dgalehouse]

100% Cora?

 

I hope that is just hyperbole.

 

A few of us posters thought leaving Houck in longer was the right thing to do, and I find Cora maybe 1% responsible for the loss.

 

The players lost that game. We had 2 solo blasts. They had one granny. We walked and hit batsmenned the bases loaded. Cora didn’t pitch one pitch.

 

He’s the clear cut manager of the year.

 

The hyper criticism is mind-boggling, and it might be part of the reason some players want out of this toxic environment.

 

I think Cora has done a good job. Much of the criticism is unwarranted. But " manager of the year" ? With a talent laden team that might finish from second to fourth in a five team division? Highly doubtful.

[dgalehouse]

Exactly right. And while it burned us last night, I like the rule.

 

No chance that Cora forgot the rule. He simply was banking on Hernandez to get Rizzo out. It didn't happen. The rest , as they say, is history.

[Maxbialystock]

Yes. The vibe among Red Sox fans in the ballpark when that happened was more shock and awe than anger and heartbreak. I was there with a Yankee fan, so I let him enjoy it. Nothing better than the sound of a well struck baseball, regardless of who hits it. Some might say it is a sign of maturity and mental stability to be gracious and respectful in defeat

 

If you're there with a Yankee fan, you had every reason to be gracious. I have run into Yankee fans repeatedly over the years and always enjoyed it because I usually know a lot about their team(s). On one of the game threads someone said the best player on both teams is Judge, and I agreed with that.

 

All that aside, I was truly pissed at Hernandez. He came into the 8th with 2 on and 2 outs and facing lefty hitter Rizzo, whom he promptly walks/HBP's, after which the game-winning grand slam by Stanton. I think Hernandez, like Houck before him and Robles before Houck, simply chocked. Big game, big crowd, tough opposing team.

[Maxbialystock]

I am sure you are all very tired of me pointing out truths about he 2021 Sox. But this team has no business wasting your or my time thinking about the playoffs. Shades of Mora. No guts, no glory . I am not Bloom, but if I were, I would almost start again from ground zero with players who want to win and have the ability to do so. It may may take 5 years and 26 new names.

 

I do think the Sox are choking in this series, but you are dead wrong about this team, some of whom were prominent on the 2018 Sox, the best team in Sox history.

 

Are you always this obtuse?

[Maxbialystock]

No chance that Cora forgot the rule. He simply was banking on Hernandez to get Rizzo out. It didn't happen. The rest , as they say, is history.

 

Agree. I also agree with Bellhorn04 that it's a good rule.

[Maxbialystock]

Problem is, you can't count on Hernandez, he is always wild, walks too many batters. I don't know how you ever take Houck out of that game, he is better than Hernandez and with Stanton looming on deck you don't want the lefty in the game even through Rizzo is at the plate.

 

That loss is 100% on Cora. I'm pretty confident that the Red Sox win the game if they keep Houck in the game. It's not like Houck threw too many pitches and was getting tired. I believed he could have finished off the inning and the game.

 

Sometime managers blow it, they overthink it, and make terrible decisions. It happens. If it happens too often, the manager should be replaced. I'm not saying Cora should be replaced, but he needs to make better decisions than this, and he usually does make better decisions than this.

 

Leave Houck in???? Leave Houck in!!!!????? Are you nuts? When he came in, he threw 8 straight balls and put two Yankees on base, after which his slider save him with a GIDP and a K. Then 2 outs in the 8th, followed by two walks. No manager in the world we have kept such an erratic pitcher on the mound in a close game like this. Plus coming up was lefty batter Rizzo, so bringing in lefty Hernandez made sense, especially when he had given up 0 runs in his last 9 appearances. In those 9 appearances, he had 13 K's and 5 BB's.

[Fan_since_Boggs]

Leave Houck in???? Leave Houck in!!!!????? Are you nuts?

 

It's not as "nuts" as you think when you consider that Cora went to a fringe reliever, a guy who has walked 30 batters in 39.2 innings for a stunning walk ratio of 6.89 per 9. It you have a better reliever to bring in, I'm open to it, but going to Hernandez was dumb with Stanton on deck and a really good chance that Hernandez wouldn't retire Rizzo.

 

I would stick with the guy who is struggling to find the zone, but getting outs, over a new reliever who will inevitably struggle with his command.

 

At the end of the day, though, maybe we are just dealing with a situation where the back of the bullpen isn't strong enough.....If that is the case, we could argue that Cora isn't to blame--he simply didn't have the horses to finish off the game....

 

I hated the move, though, the walks suck but Houck doesn't give up a lot of hard contact and so I would have stayed with him.

Edited September 26, 2021 by Fan_since_Boggs

[moonslav59]

One pitch gets away from you and hits a batter, and you are a "choke."

 

Man, you guys are brutal.

 

This game is not easy. Mistakes are made all the time. Just because one is made at the highest pressure point in a big game, doesn't mean it was the result of a breakdown in a player's psyche or intestinal fortitude.

 

We should have won the game. If blame has to be divvied out, as it seems it must be in today's society, then plenty of players should get a share. Not meaning to offend anyone, and I know some statements are hyperbolic, but to say something like "Cora 100%" is really quite absurd.

[Maxbialystock]

It's not as "nuts" as you think when you consider that Cora went to a fringe reliever, a guy who has walked 30 batters in 39.2 innings for a stunning walk ratio of 6.89 per 9. It you have a better reliever to bring in, I'm open to it, but going to Hernandez was dumb with Stanton on deck and a really good chance that Hernandez wouldn't retire Rizzo.

 

I would stick with the guy who is struggling to find the zone, but getting outs, over a new reliever who will inevitably struggle with his command.

 

At the end of the day, though, maybe we are just dealing with a situation where the back of the bullpen isn't strong enough.....If that is the case, we could argue that Cora isn't to blame--he simply didn't have the horses to finish off the game....

 

I hated the move, though, the walks suck but Houck doesn't give up a lot of hard contact and so I would have stayed with him.

 

I provided evidence--Hernandez's last 9 appearances plus being a lefty--for why he was a good choice. But, to be honest, looking at what happened, I doubt that anyone in the bullpen was going to help much. Brasier was OK only because the Yankees had a 5-2 lead when Brasier pitched the 9th.

[Bellhorn04]

It's not as "nuts" as you think when you consider that Cora went to a fringe reliever, a guy who has walked 30 batters in 39.2 innings for a stunning walk ratio of 6.89 per 9. It you have a better reliever to bring in, I'm open to it, but going to Hernandez was dumb with Stanton on deck and a really good chance that Hernandez wouldn't retire Rizzo.

 

Hernandez had been pitching very well though. And he normally doesn't give up a lot of hard contact either, with a .338 SLGA, virtually identical to Houck's .332 SLGA.

 

Totally logical move by Cora that didn't work out.

[Fan_since_Boggs]

Houck 2.90 walk ratio per nine.

Hernandez 6.89 per nine.

 

The former is a major caliber pitcher, the latter is fringe. There is no way I'm bringing in a fringe pitcher in that spot with Stanton on deck.

[Maxbialystock]

One pitch gets away from you and hits a batter, and you are a "choke."

 

Man, you guys are brutal.

 

This game is not easy. Mistakes are made all the time. Just because one is made at the highest pressure point in a big game, doesn't mean it was the result of a breakdown in a player's psyche or intestinal fortitude.

 

We should have won the game. If blame has to be divvied out, as it seems it must be in today's society, then plenty of players should get a share. Not meaning to offend anyone, and I know some statements are hyperbolic, but to say something like "Cora 100%" is really quite absurd.

 

That HBP was actually the fourth ball to Rizzo, so it wasn't "one pitch."

 

Roble's first pitch was wild and cost a run, so you might have a point there. However, Robles is a high heat reliever. He loves fastballs and throws a lot of them. So why oh why throw a slider on his first pitch with a man on 3b?

 

And, I'm sorry, but three different relievers stunk in a close game against the Yankees in a late September game that makes a real difference. So did Eovaldi Friday. I don't think this was just random fate intruding. The Yankees pitchers, meanwhile, seemed to know what they were doing and pretty much dominated the Sox hitters despite the August addition of Schwarber, the September addition of Iglesias, the return of Kike, the vastly improved hitting of Dalbec, etc.

[Fan_since_Boggs]

Maybe this loss showed that Cora needs to take the leap and treat G.Richards as his shutdown reliever, the guy who can come in in a big spot and get the job done. If the Red Sox make noise in the playoffs, you would expect some reliever to step up as a shutdown guy. It aint gonna be Hernandez, that's for sure.

[Maxbialystock]

Houck 2.90 walk ratio per nine.

Hernandez 6.89 per nine.

 

The former is a major caliber pitcher, the latter is fringe. There is no way I'm bringing in a fringe pitcher in that spot with Stanton on deck.

 

Fringe, shminge. Last night Houck's walk ratio per nine was over 16, not the 2.90 you assert.