trade deadline

[notin]

Overall, DD did a very good job. If the owner's didn't tighten up the purse strings, he'd be seen in a more favorable light.

 

I will say his drafting certainly worked better than it has for previous clubs, which was nice.

 

But as Sox GM, he also seems to come into an absolutely perfect situation. Cherington was constantly reducing budget before he could spend anything, and building upa farm system. DD stepped into a team witha very talented young core in Bogaerts/Betts/Bradley/Benintendi and a loaded farm system and handed a check book with a higher balance than any previous GM in team history. His predecessor was not allowed to sign pitchers over 30 and had to trade away a starting player just to accommodate Cody Ross. Cody Ross?!?!? And then he gets replaced by a guy who is allowed to drop a payroll equal to the GNP of Kiribati...

[moonslav59]

DD did exactly what his ownership wanted him to do.

 

I'm not sure they were all in on so many farm moves, but not enough to stop him.

 

DD filled the need we had for that time and place.

 

Bloom is the guy we needed after DD.

[Bellhorn04]

I will say his drafting certainly worked better than it has for previous clubs, which was nice.

 

But as Sox GM, he also seems to come into an absolutely perfect situation. Cherington was constantly reducing budget before he could spend anything, and building upa farm system. DD stepped into a team witha very talented young core in Bogaerts/Betts/Bradley/Benintendi and a loaded farm system and handed a check book with a higher balance than any previous GM in team history. His predecessor was not allowed to sign pitchers over 30 and had to trade away a starting player just to accommodate Cody Ross. Cody Ross?!?!? And then he gets replaced by a guy who is allowed to drop a payroll equal to the GNP of Kiribati...

 

Sure, let's completely bypass Ben's signings of Pablo, Hanley and Castillo. What's a totally wasted quarter billion here and there?

[moonslav59]

Sure, let's completely bypass Ben's signings of Pablo, Hanley and Castillo. What's a totally wasted quarter billion here and there?

 

That's why he was let go, IMO.

 

While I wanted to see him get one more year, with an expected bigger budget, with that FA signing track record, I can see why they went with a proven good big spender in DD.

[mvp 78]

Sure, let's completely bypass Ben's signings of Pablo, Hanley and Castillo. What's a totally wasted quarter billion here and there?

 

The day the Sox signed Pablo and Hanley was a very confusing time on here. Nobody quite knew what the plan was for those two. We never really found out either. Should have just signed Hanley and left Pablo alone.

[moonslav59]

The day the Sox signed Pablo and Hanley was a very confusing time on here. Nobody quite knew what the plan was for those two. We never really found out either. Should have just signed Hanley and left Pablo alone.

 

When they announced HRam, I thought, "Great, we have a 3Bman!"

 

Then Pablo...

[mvp 78]

When they announced HRam, I thought, "Great, we have a 3Bman!"

 

Then Pablo...

 

And it's not like there was an opening at DH they needed to fill.

[Bellhorn04]

If DD made 3 signings that bad, he'd be annihilated.

[moonslav59]

And it's not like there was an opening at DH they needed to fill.

 

I think they got blinded by Pablo's playoff heroics.

 

I do wonder how much Ben was involved in the final decisions. My guess is he was okay with all those moves.

 

I think the Castillo move was more forgivable.

[mvp 78]

I think they got blinded by Pablo's playoff heroics.

 

I do wonder how much Ben was involved in the final decisions. My guess is he was okay with all those moves.

 

I think the Castillo move was more forgivable.

 

I disagree with Castillo. They signed Castillo to make up for them not signing Abreu the previous offseason.

 

Hanley > Castillo > Panda

[a700hitter]

The day the Sox signed Pablo and Hanley was a very confusing time on here. Nobody quite knew what the plan was for those two. We never really found out either. Should have just signed Hanley and left Pablo alone.

Should have left them both alone. Pablo was already on a steep decline and Hanley was damaged goods too. Never mind that there was no place on the field for both of them. They should have put the money toward Scherzer.

[mvp 78]

Should have left them both alone. Pablo was already on a steep decline and Hanley was damaged goods too. Never mind that there was no place on the field for both of them. They should have put the money toward Scherzer.

 

Unfortunately, they had the idiotic "don't sign old pitchers" rule at the time.

[sk7326]

I'm not sure they were all in on so many farm moves, but not enough to stop him.

 

DD filled the need we had for that time and place.

 

Bloom is the guy we needed after DD.

 

That is possible - but Henry knew exactly who he was from the Florida days. And while Dombrowski made aggressive calls in his trades - they were almost always good (or at minimum pretty defensible) calls.

[mvp 78]

That is possible - but Henry knew exactly who he was from the Florida days. And while Dombrowski made aggressive calls in his trades - they were almost always good (or at minimum pretty defensible) calls.

 

Ah, but what if he didn't trader Espinoza to the Padres and used him instead of Kopech for Sale?!?!?!?

[sk7326]

Ah, but what if he didn't trader Espinoza to the Padres and used him instead of Kopech for Sale?!?!?!?

 

Espinoza's arm was starting to show concerns by the Sale point anyway. And this is as somebody who did not like the Kimbrel trade.

[a700hitter]

Unfortunately, they had the idiotic "don't sign old pitchers" rule at the time.

30 years old isn’t old and that rule should go out the window for pitchers on a HOF path.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

30 years old isn’t old and that rule should go out the window for pitchers on a HOF path.

 

Without looking it up, don't almost all HOF pitchers, except maybe Koufax, star late into their 30s?

[moonslav59]

30 years old isn’t old and that rule should go out the window for pitchers on a HOF path.

 

I guess the question is, or was, were Lester and Price on a HOF path?

 

(I'd say pretty damn close or yes.)

[notin]

Without looking it up, don't almost all HOF pitchers, except maybe Koufax, star late into their 30s?

 

YEs, but the issue is most pitchers don't do that. And usually the ones who do are not the same.

 

Even Pedro Martinez posted a 3.54 ERA after his age 30 season and a 3.87 after his age 31 season. Certainly not bad, but worth $30mill?

 

The problem is rarely the age 31 and 32 seasons. It's the age 34+ seasons. Keeping my Pedro example, after age 33 his ERA was 4.58. So with these longer deals for star pitchers, you have to hope they pay for themselves by about age 34 or so. because at some point, those pitchers will perform much worse while getting paid the same. (This is often why those contracts are heavily backloaded - they pay the pitcher less to build a better team around him while he is still good.)

 

Scherzer was not the benchmark here, and was very much the rarest of cases...

[notin]

I guess the question is, or was, were Lester and Price on a HOF path?

 

(I'd say pretty damn close or yes.)

 

I'd say no on Lester, who was probably closer to the Tim Hudson/Roy Oswalt type of pitcher - very good but not heading to Cooperstown.

 

Price probably had an outside shot when he was 30-31, but he was a borderline case...

[mvp 78]

Without looking it up, don't almost all HOF pitchers, except maybe Koufax, star late into their 30s?

 

Pedro was terrible after 33.

[notin]

Pedro was terrible after 33.

 

But he was incredible at age 31. If he was a free agent after posting a 2.22 ERA in 186 IP at 31 years old, what kind of deal would that get him today? And would the remainder of his career have justified it?

[mvp 78]

Jim Palmer's career really fell off in his mid 30's.

 

Halladay's last good season was at 34.

 

Drysdale retired at 32.

[a700hitter]

Pedro was terrible after 33.

He had a history of arm trouble by age 31. Even our medical staff knew that his arm was ready to explode.

[sk7326]

I am not even sure HOF path helps all that much - this is one of the cases where stuff I can pull up on fangraphs or whatever doesn't really help all that much.

 

Some guys never get hurt and some guys have that as their destiny (and we are still wrong about those dudes all the time)

 

Like you look at Price's trajectory and watch his delivery - you had every expectation he'd be an innings eating machine in Boston. (cue sad trombone)

Lester had no history of getting hurt and mechanics which looked awfully durable, and it turned out that he has indeed been largely indestructible.

Sale had a history of durabiltiy despite a "hide your eyes" sort of delivery that screams bullpen. Le sigh.

 

The hope when you sign a 30 year old is that you are getting at minimum Mark Buehrle or Jon Lester - where they are reliable innings eaters through the life of the deal. (along with quality of performance and so on)

[mvp 78]

But he was incredible at age 31. If he was a free agent after posting a 2.22 ERA in 186 IP at 31 years old, what kind of deal would that get him today? And would the remainder of his career have justified it?

 

He would get a boatload of money and it would NOT have been worth it.

[mvp 78]

I am not even sure HOF path helps all that much - this is one of the cases where stuff I can pull up on fangraphs or whatever doesn't really help all that much.

 

Some guys never get hurt and some guys have that as their destiny (and we are still wrong about those dudes all the time)

 

Like you look at Price's trajectory and watch his delivery - you had every expectation he'd be an innings eating machine in Boston. (cue sad trombone)

Lester had no history of getting hurt and mechanics which looked awfully durable, and it turned out that he has indeed been largely indestructible.

Sale had a history of durabiltiy despite a "hide your eyes" sort of delivery that screams bullpen. Le sigh.

 

The hope when you sign a 30 year old is that you are getting at minimum Mark Buehrle or Jon Lester - where they are reliable innings eaters through the life of the deal. (along with quality of performance and so on)

 

Agree with the durability aspect.

[a700hitter]

Jim Palmer's career really fell off in his mid 30's.

 

Halladay's last good season was at 34.

 

Drysdale retired at 32.

Palmer had a history of shoulder trouble as didnHalladay.

 

Drysdale was from an era when pitchers threw 25 complete games. It is a wonder that any of those guys made it to 30.

[a700hitter]

The discussion is silly. The money obviously would have been better spent on Scherzer than Pablo and HanRam.

[mvp 78]

The discussion is silly. The money obviously would have been better spent on Scherzer than Pablo and HanRam.

 

Hot take.